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The problem is all the running about with missions.
When street hunting you are constantly earning xp, with a mission you have to run to conatcta to get the mission and then run to the mission. The xp bonus for the mission is far to small to counterbalance all the dead time you get doing missiosn that you dont get street hunting.
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There are a couple of 'secrets' to this.
First, if possible, double up on missions - that is to say, grab two 'hunt X badguys' that you can take care of in the same area, or get a 'hunt X badguys' that you can do on the way to your other mission.
Second (and this works better at lower levels simply because of the travel powers, or lack thereof, in use), if you see some bluesor greens or even whites on the way to the mission, stop and whack them. Unless the mission is timed, it won't matter - and even Superman pauses to stop muggings now and again. If you stop to lay the smackdown on the way to and from the mission, you'll do a lot to even yourself out with the guy who's solely street hunting.
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Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
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Missed this somehow. Is that you only "earn" half the debt on mission maps or that you burn it off twice as fast? One just makes it harder to get to the debt cap, while the other burns off debt faster.
Still here, even after all this time!
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I'm not a big fan of the first. I can understand for five levels when people are still getting used to the game, but by L6 I don't see the need for no-risk gaming. Especially given your affirmation of not wanting reward without risk.
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It means giving new players about 10 hours of risk-free play, as opposed to about 2 hours of risk-free play. It also means that you get a bunch of chances to learn how to navigate around the Hollows without death after death, which is aggravating not only because of debt, but because of the long run from Atlas Park (no travel power and pathetic run speed).
My 2 cents:
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I would recommend that you create an accolade that can be earned at early levels (something you could earn at level 2) that would allow you to initiate a Teleport to the Hospital.
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Couldn't disagree more Pilcrow 
That's like using 911 to call an ambulance to give you a ride to the deli.
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Simple solution: make Super Speed and Fly available at level 6 instead of level 14. What in the world is the justification for having it at level 14 anyway? Keep people out of PI? (Like that works. Saw a level 3 at Portal Corp. the other day).
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I was thinking the same thing 
All travel powers should be available earlier if you waant players to do missions in low-level hazard zones without raising the "debt-free" cap.
Really, ther has to be another way to do this without nerfing debt. I don't care what WoW is doing, but nerfing debt is not the answer
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First, if possible, double up on missions - that is to say, grab two 'hunt X badguys' that you can take care of in the same area, or get a 'hunt X badguys' that you can do on the way to your other mission.
Second (and this works better at lower levels simply because of the travel powers, or lack thereof, in use), if you see some bluesor greens or even whites on the way to the mission, stop and whack them. Unless the mission is timed, it won't matter - and even Superman pauses to stop muggings now and again. If you stop to lay the smackdown on the way to and from the mission, you'll do a lot to even yourself out with the guy who's solely street hunting.
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well the first bit doubling up in kill x badguy missions is beside the point, thats still street hunting, we are comparinging door missions to street hunting.
the 2nd bit killing on way to missions wouldnt work the majority of the time as you run from founders to talos to steel to kings to do the mission then back again, if you stopped to hunt in founders youd be hunting there a long time and may as well just be street hunting anyway, if you stopped to hunt on way through talos would harldy be worth it, if you stopped to hunt in steel or kings it would be pointless
Why does everyone refer to a change as nerfing its noting nerfing anything. Nerfing is making one thing weaker than it already was thats nerfing. They are making it easier for low lvl characters to navagate the lower lvls w/o the risk of debt. Its helping the people who enjoy making many alts but dont want to have to spend the lower lvls getting rid of debt. And as far as i know it was never the first 5 lvls that were debt free it was the first four lvls as far as i know. You had lvls 1-4 that you couldnt accuire debt. Then once you hit 5 you started to get debt per death.
Increasing the "debt-free" cap is making it weaker.
IMO, I think 4-5 lvls is plenty of time to learn how to maneuver around hoigher lvl mobs, even on foot. Even though I don't have many alt's, I remmber Perez Park fondly enough. I died once and learned how to run like hell after that 
No sympathy here 
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My 2 cents:
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I would recommend that you create an accolade that can be earned at early levels (something you could earn at level 2) that would allow you to initiate a Teleport to the Hospital.
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Couldn't disagree more Pilcrow That's like using 911 to call an ambulance to give you a ride to the deli.
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Then have the TP transponder TP you to another likely spot on the maps instead of the hospital.
Some ideas: those bus stops are pretty unused, have it TP you to the nearest one. If you are in a Bus stop, have it TP you to the next one. Or maybe they can TP you to the nearest zone change entrance (you could set up TP booths there pretty easily).
The point is, we all have TP transponders in us so we can be taken to the hospital. It makes sense that the city can use the system to TP us when we aren't defeated. Since we can all use this capability now for 10 levels, we might as well formalize it to help everyone out in the early game (and in some cases in the later game).
I don't see the need. If people want to PL on the streets, let them. They miss a great deal of the content of the game. And dying at levels 6th to 10th is no big deal, a single mission will wipe out the debt. So why make the change?
Partial Character List: http://www.warlock-inc.com/CharList.html
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heh... 5 more levels of using the hospital as the fastst travel power in the game
In the Hollows: Ding, level 8 at last!
*runs into a spawn of lvl 15 trolls because it's the fastest way to get back to Ms. Liberty.*
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Four letters: ROFL
@Demobot
Also on Steam
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I don't see the need. If people want to PL on the streets, let them. They miss a great deal of the content of the game. And dying at levels 6th to 10th is no big deal, a single mission will wipe out the debt. So why make the change?
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Overall, I think it's a matter of trying to give an incentive to behavior that you want to encourage, and you want to encourage it because you expect it'll be fun. While MMOG gameplay will get repetitive after a while no matter what you do, I think streetsweeping gets more repetitive than missions, hence people get bored more rapidly while streetsweeping.
However, if streetsweeping is the best way to earn XP and influence, then people will tend to do that because that's what the game's rewarding them to do. (It's one way to look at XP Leeching -- powerlevelling to some. The game is rewarding you well to stand there and do nothing, so people will do that.) By lowering mission debt that makes taking on mission challenges more attractive so people will be more inclined to do missions.
I'm less certain about reason for extending debt immunity to level 10. At a guess I think it has to do with increasing the early game replayability, in that people can speed through those levels more quickly now. This helps those who dread going through those levels with their alts Yet Again Oh No. It means you'll get to level 14 a little quicker as well, and I think the magic 14's a goal people tend to speed towards.
It also may have to do with retaining new players who are used to WoW's speedier levelling. Regardless of the merits of trying to compare the two games, a frequent complaint here is that "I level too slow compared to WoW." This change may help lure people in... only to crush them later with debt in a sadistic fashion. (<--- sarcasm)
I agree with you that debt overall is trivial, but it clearly has an emotional effect on a lot of people. I don't get it (much as I don't get how "levelling faster" is somehow "better"), but it seems a pretty common complaint.
On the surface, the changes have more pros than cons. As someone tried to do above, put this change next to the ongoing balance discussions and you got the framework for larger change.
My guess would be that somehow they are trying to get back to the boosted bosses if only in missions. It was stated that more or less the reason it was backed out was that "some" ATs couldnt handle it and were running into higher lvl baddies around corners and eating dirt. Lowering the debt makes this more barable across all ATs. Especially early where the change caused the most debt. Post 22 with increased SO cost and you have the potential to increase difficulty and have debt decrease act as a reward or at least a counter balance? Something adjustable that can be tweaked at least. Just a guess and most likely a bad one.
Dont look a gift horse in the mouth? True, but it beats sticking your arm up its [censored] to see what its really been doing.
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My guess would be that somehow they are trying to get back to the boosted bosses if only in missions.
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You could be on to something here. I just wish Statesman would let us know why the changes are being proposed. What's the context? What's the big picture?
<ul type="square">[*] Is it to compete more with WoW?[*] Is it to deter PLing?[*] Is it to make navigating low-lvl hazard zones easier?[*] Is it to make creating alts easier?[*] Is it a precursor to re-boost bosses?[*] Any or all of the above?[/list]
Statesman, if you're reading this, could you let us know what the imputus is?
The truth is out there...
First of all, good changes.
I think these are to make CoH better attracting for the new players. Better get those debt badges before it gets harder =)
I think the Idea is inane.
Been playing this game for over a year. got one level 50 toon and 2 very close to it. I already did all of the missions. think I want to do them again? that's funnies. some new content.... new missions, contacts, areas.... now that would make a GREAT release. Instead time is being wasted on PVP.... Now that'll pull people back to missions...NOT. they'll be to busy power leveling their new made for arena combat uber toons.
Great move sparky.
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What in the world is the justification for having it at level 14 anyway?
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I think Statesman has stated that this is so people don't gimp themselves by taking movement powers at levels where they should really be taking attacks and defences.
//AtCbM// www.crystalblue.dk
Victory - Mare,Dagger of Pain,Keep,Hogun and Bloodpetal
The Keep-Arcs: 164260, 188373, 192610, 196090 and funny side-chapter 218575.
Mender-Arc: 266163
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O. M. G. 
They're nerfing debt farming?
They're nerfing debt farming! 
Doesn't change my behavior much... I'll still be kamikaze-ing into a group of purples in theaters near you.
It'll be nice for my husband, tho. 
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MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I absolutely LOVE this!! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Not that I'm complaining really, but why?
Debt is hardly even a penalty, and now it's being mitigated further? Perhaps I'm alone here, but I don't get it.
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No matter how little debt the system assigns you, someone will always complain about it to try and get it lessened.
Even if there was no debt, people would complain about having to port ALL the way back to a hospital, and that they should be allowed to have a timer to stand back up or something. Then they will complain about that timer being too long.
Basically the point at which the people complaining about the debt are satisfied, is when the same people start complaining about the game being too easy. It's a no win situation, really.
Upsen.
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Agreed!
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Overall, I think it's a matter of trying to give an incentive to behavior that you want to encourage, and you want to encourage it because you expect it'll be fun. While MMOG gameplay will get repetitive after a while no matter what you do, I think streetsweeping gets more repetitive than missions, hence people get bored more rapidly while streetsweeping.
However, if streetsweeping is the best way to earn XP and influence, then people will tend to do that because that's what the game's rewarding them to do. (It's one way to look at XP Leeching -- powerlevelling to some. The game is rewarding you well to stand there and do nothing, so people will do that.) By lowering mission debt that makes taking on mission challenges more attractive so people will be more inclined to do missions.
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Exactly. You catch a lot more flys with honey than vinegar. They want people to do the missions. That's supposed to be the meat and potatoes of the game. They can get people to do that through two ways: incentivizing mission play or punishing non-mission play.
I like the 1/2 debt in missions. Would you rather they 1/2 the xp of street mobs versus mission mobs?
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
How about this:
-You can only earn XP from missions and the mobs inside.
-Street mobs earn double Influence, but no XP.
-If you have debt street mobs will reduce it by the normal amount.
This will allow players to get that extra INF for Enhancements or that costume change without outleveling content. This will allow players a quick way to clear debt without slogging through a mission at 1/2 XP.
Yes this means the only way to gain XP will to do missions. Which is the only thing that really makes sense. What kind of "learning" or "experience" does someone gain when fighting the same mobs over and over. Missions show progress of a character through the story.
Unfortunatly the zones are not laid out to facilitate this. Seriously DEVs, you create giant zones like IP or hazard zones like Parez and stuff them full of easy to kill mobs. Then you wonder why people street hunt???
I had an idea on this one...
With the missions being set to give less debt on deaths, I thought it would be interesting to have it set so that debt goes down more exponentially depending on how many people are on the team. If there are only 2 people on the team, the debt will be more than if there is a full 8 man team.
Which I think would make teaming for missions even more palatable.
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Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
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Oh, that's what you mean...
For a second when I saw the title I thought you meant that in I5 there would be issues with Windows XP!
lol
Now even though I think this is a very good idea, I kind of think it is a lazy way out of a particular problem with the Hollows. I've gone through quite a few of the submits for this thread and a lot of people admit to doing what I have to also admit doing... I get killed just so I don't have deal with the 5 minute run back to Atlas Gate. Jeez... I would have rather seen some kind of upgrade to show the progression of the Hollows being retaken such as a "SAFE" place in the middle of the Hollows where a trainer is located so that you could train and sell. How many times have you other gamers had to wait and wait and wait some more because your mission is in the back forty of the Hollows and the awesome team you just put together suddenly decides that they need to run back and train. There's no Taxibots working, of course. and THEY won't commit suicide to speed up their trip. ( not that they should - just my twisted thinking =P ) Then one or two gets killed while trying to get to the mission and no one has awakens. The person that got killed is the one with Rez. Arrrggg!!! And what happens? Half the team looses intrest in waiting and decides to quit or join another team that actually made it all the way over.
Don't get me all wrong. I love that you've been kind enough to take it a little easier on us with the debt up to 10th level. I'll admit I've deleted a few controllers I loved because no matter where I went I got spanked with debt so much that it'd take a couple of Frostfire missions to get out of it. -- and for those of you thinking that it is my playing style that sucks, you'd be wrong. I often can only play very early in the morning and believe me a controller is hard pressed to find help between 4 and 6 a.m.. =)
Like I said... though I am ever greatful for the break you're providing, I would trade it for progression in the storyline of the Hollows with either a safe spot in the middle of the map or a teleportation device. Or better yet, don't administer missions of low level so far in the back forty (meaning the Northeast corner of the Hollows). After all, it's not really heroic to commit suicide just to avoid the drudgery of a 5 minute run to a gate and then a few more minutes to get to the trainer in Atlas just to face the same amount of time running back to a mission.
Sorry for babbling. [image]http://eu.cityofheroes.com/images/wallpapers/bigstar-800.jpg[/image] [image]http://eu.cityofheroes.com/images/wallpapers/bigstar-800.jpg[/image]
I've got to put my 2 influence in. I personally love the debt system as-is. There's a penalty for biting off more than you can chew and then not retreating. It's not even a severe penalty; what do we do to alleviate the debt? Simply play the game, which we'd be doing anyway. It's an elegant system and I think it's actually the best individual idea that someone had in the entire game.
No, I'm not kidding, I'm 100% serious. It's completely brilliant.
So just keep it in place. Pay no attention to people who complain that it's too harsh.
I know not everyone agrees with my opinion, but I had to put my opinion out there in case someone official is tallying responses in favor or against this change.
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Simple solution: make Super Speed and Fly available at level 6 instead of level 14. What in the world is the justification for having it at level 14 anyway? Keep people out of PI? (Like that works. Saw a level 3 at Portal Corp. the other day).
Super Speed or Fly at level 6 shouldn't be an issue: even level 1's are "superheroes" in this game. Give them the travel powers they need to explore the zones earlier.
BTW, I rarely do Flux missions in The Hollows until I have - essentially - outleveled them precisely because it's too dangerous getting to and from them. Of course by then, they're not worth doing.
Travel powers at level 6 are a better solution all the way around, and would make the game more fun for the casual gamer.
[/ QUOTE ]I LOVE this idea! it'll take some re-working, but it can also open the door for making hasten a tier 2/3 power like everyone is STILL crying about :P