[ QUOTE ]
The majority of Blasters are not careful or skilled (very in the minority). In my blurb I alluded to this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that's a good point.
[ QUOTE ]
My point was merely to demonstrate that blasters work amid a habitat of debt, moreso than the other archetypes. And I wasn't making 'amazing generalizations'--I sited specific circumstances on how most blasters get into debt,
[/ QUOTE ]
It's the terms like "most" and "majority" that are making me think "generalizations". However, it's probably not fair to nitpick your word choices.
My point is that earning debt is directly influenced by our playstyle choices. If the majority of Blasters are not careful or skilled enough to avoid living in debt, then I don't see that as a problem with the Blaster archetype. It is possible to play a Blaster who doesn't rack up much debt at all. You seem to be expressing that debt is automatically a feature of playing a Blaster. I disagree and say that Blasters who are constantly in debt are making choices that are earning that debt. A Tanker or Scrapper who constantly takes on too much can be in the same situation.
Knowing and staying within your limitations is an important part of this game, and debt is how the game encourages you to do so (in the future). People who don't learn from that debt will continue to get more of it frequently. If those type of people are gravitating toward playing Blasters, then, maybe that would explain why so many Blasters feel like they are always in debt.
[ QUOTE ]
as well as illustrating the clear nature of acquiring aggro as blaster: Blasters generate far more aggro because they out-damage controllers and defenders and are in highly-offensive postures (e.g. rapidly activating offensive powers agumented with build-up, hasten, aim).
[/ QUOTE ]
All true. Blasters trying to solo a group appropriate for a Tanker or a Scrapper of their level are looking for pain (more true the higher the level in question). Grouping is the same, or even worse, since Blasters often have powers with the potential to shift all the villains spawned for the entire group directly onto themselves. That's a good reason to group with a Tanker or two, and make sure they have agro firmly in their grasp before tossing down agro-robbing AoE's.
I have two Blasters that I play. Each of them is defeated from time to time. Neither of them live in constant debt; in fact, I'd say that most of their play time is spent out of debt. I'm not trying to be difficult or annoying, I just disagree with what some of what you're saying because my experience is different.
I should have stopped paying you as soon as I realized that you were using my money to change the PvE game I love into a PvP game. It was foolish of me to trust you to leave PvE intact.
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone can get into debt quickly if they can't play (although now they won't realize it until lvl 10!) but the very make up of a blaster makes it easier for them to accumulate debt, because poor play feeds on the weaknesses of the toon.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I can agree with that. Especially vulnerable (imo) are those people who had gotten used to playing a more durable archetype and then switched over to a Blaster.
[ QUOTE ]
A few of you are too (mathmatically and otherwise) literal-minded.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, sorry about that. The hypocrite in me often applies incisive standards of accuracy to the words of others which my own words could not themselves withstand.
I should have stopped paying you as soon as I realized that you were using my money to change the PvE game I love into a PvP game. It was foolish of me to trust you to leave PvE intact.
[ QUOTE ]
When I'm soloing, I'm pretty cautious, I move forward slowly. As such, I don't get that much debt on mission maps while soloing.
Where I do get debt is outside. Not from random street hunting, but the killer ambushes (2 lieutenants plus six minions) or from force hunting missions. I got two bubbles of debt from clearing the maw in striga, and (after waiting to hit 22 and getting influence from a high level character so I was completely fitted with SOs) three bubbles of debt from clearing the bog.
[/ QUOTE ]
Soloing in a Hazzard Zone is a great way to replentish a failing debt bar.
I should have stopped paying you as soon as I realized that you were using my money to change the PvE game I love into a PvP game. It was foolish of me to trust you to leave PvE intact.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I'm soloing, I'm pretty cautious, I move forward slowly. As such, I don't get that much debt on mission maps while soloing.
Where I do get debt is outside. Not from random street hunting, but the killer ambushes (2 lieutenants plus six minions) or from force hunting missions. I got two bubbles of debt from clearing the maw in striga, and (after waiting to hit 22 and getting influence from a high level character so I was completely fitted with SOs) three bubbles of debt from clearing the bog.
[/ QUOTE ]
Soloing in a Hazzard Zone is a great way to replentish a failing debt bar.
[/ QUOTE ]
According to Jack Emmert, you should be able to solo your own missions at heroic.
Striga has many hunting missions that are required to progress to the next part of the story.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
[ QUOTE ]
I was using a light-hearted analogy to illustrate a point about human nature--you've taken me out of context. Keep to the subject, bud. I'm not talking about politics or astrophysics, I'm talking about day-to-day observations on a sub-set of people that play this game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Awll no, you made a sweeping generalization about how the world works with absolutely no reference to City of Heros at all.
In fact, you made a sweeping generalization defending sweeping generalizations.
Let's look at it again.
[ QUOTE ]
Just because I can't "substantiate" with hard data doesn't mean it's any less accurate,
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually yes it does, by definition.
[ QUOTE ]
like in this example: most jerks don't have a lot of friends. Can I substantiate that with numbers? Have I met all of the jerks in the world? No, but from observation one can make these kinds of accurate generalizations.
[/ QUOTE ]
So take a subjective term "jerk" an unquantifiable AND subjective variable "number of friends". Then, set-up a straw man argument that somehow you would have to meet all the jerks in the world in order to be able to gather actual evidence to back up your unsubstantiated claims.
And, of course, once you are called on your shoddy debating techniques:
-Accuse ther person who points out the flaws in your logic of nmt having a sense of humour
-Claim you were taken out of context
-Accuse the other person of straying off topic despite the fact your original point was off topic and
-Claim you made caveats in your initial claim you didn't, despite the evidence being quoted in the body of the same message
Do you teach a course in poor discussion technique?
In short: all generlizations are wrong; including this one.
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Synchronicity:
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Ya know, being a blaster = being in perpetual debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Adron:
[ QUOTE ]
Uh, no.
[/ QUOTE ]
Synchronicity:
[ QUOTE ]
Umm, Yes.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you put your statement into the form of an equation you may have given the impression that you were saying "All blasters are in perpetual debt.".
If you did mean that, then you're wrong. Even before the I5 debt changes there was no reason that a careful and skilled blaster couldn't avoid permadebt. Yes, you'll be defeated from time to time. Probably more than most Tankers or Scrappers (which should come as no surprise, since those archetypes have more health and better defenses). Having a lot of debt isn't the same as being in perpetual debt, however.
If you didn't mean that, then you might want to avoid using absolutes (in this case, an equation) to express non-absolute concepts. If you do, then people will be more likely to understand what you say.
[ QUOTE ]
The *vast* majority of blasters (blasters who play other ATs, mind you) feel that they manage debt far longer through each level than your corresponding tank, scrapper, controller and defender. They are the primary squishy. Why? Because they aggro like no controller does (since controllers lock-down the baddies) or any defender (blasters easily outstrip defenders in damage, if you're about to make the offensive defender example--mobs go attack the one that inflicts the highest damage per attack). After all, who do you see on the ground the most? It's the blaster who has tanker-itis, or the fire-blaster that opens with the AoE salvo that ticks off every last minion...bonehead moves, to be sure, but there are plenty of boneheaded blasters. I know I started off that way, too.
The only time you see defenders and controllers hit the deck is from AoE damage, or some uber-dumb move like going toe-to-toe with a lieut or a boss.
[/ QUOTE ]
Those are some amazing generalizations. What exactly are you trying to say? Just that Blasters are the squishiest archetype, and are able to draw the most agro when they want? Or also that we should feel sorry for the poor Blasters because of this? Are you advocating a change, or opposing one? I've gone back and read your posts in this thread and I'm at a loss to understand what your position is.
[/ QUOTE ]
He is correct. Blasters by definition don't have either the health or the defenses to withstand an apha strike from multiple foes if he doesn't drop enemy cons with the first shot. Pre-I5 Blasters drew a significant amount of aggro for the damage that they do without the ability to heal himself or respites available a Blaster could find himself on a quick trip to the hospital. Also in teams the Blasters are also the first ones to fall from AOEs, good Blasters can mitigate that by pulling alot but pulling doesn't alway work and a Blaster can be overrun without the ability of the instant kill a Blaster can find himself or herself face planted in an instant. Now after I5 with the new changes to the cons, a Blaster is in even more danger because of defiance, and enemy cons doing more damage thus negating any extra health that was given to the Blasters in I5. Besides the higher you are in the game, the more damage the bad guys do in single shot incriments and that was before the added damage of I5. So perma-debt is not only possible but likely.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The majority of Blasters are not careful or skilled (very in the minority).
[/ QUOTE ]
This was pulled directly out of your bottom, and you know it. You cannot speak for "most Blasters" when it comes to their skill or how careful they are, because you have no way to substantiate the statement. You have not seem most blasters play, because there is not enough time in the day to do so.
Do blasters draw more aggro than other squishies? Sure, and they can't lock them down as effectively as some controllers. Do they have minimal defense? Certainly. Does that mean they are not careful or skilled? Not at all, in fact, I'm glad my first 50 was a blaster, becuase it made me a better player and gave me a good understanding of MOB AI.
You may have teamed with some crazy blasters, granted. My blaster never hit the debt cap, was hardly in perma-debt, and solo'd most of her carreer.
Please don't make assumptions about "most Blasters" based on the ones you've seen in game. If I were to make the statement that most blasters were very skilled about MOB AI because of how squishy they are, I would be talking out of my bottom, too.
[/ QUOTE ]
He shouldn't have made a generalization about most Blasters but I have seen many Blasters play very recklessly and there are enough forum complaints about Blasters to give a certain amount of credence to what he said. Also perma-debt is more likely in Blasters especially in higher levels because of the amount of debt you receive after level 30, multiple defeats on TFs and bad pick up teams can create more that enough debt that it will take several days for you to work the debt down and if you get defeated during that time, that adds to it, so perma-debt is again possible.
[ QUOTE ]
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I more than acknowledge that there are good blasters; however, they are in the minority. Even you have seen your fair share of blasters hit the deck due to bad judgement (errors that usually gets weeded out by the late lvl 20's). When I say *majority* I should've qualified that for accuracy: "the majority of blasters I've seen..."
but when you see a trend, as I've explained, it typically rings true. Ask any primary non-blaster what they see, and they'll tell you that they see a trend, too...most blasters aren't too bright with their aggro management. Or are you going to dispute this, too, and say "substantiate it"?
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to agree that more often than not it's a blaster that makes poor decisions and die when I team with them. As a result I will only team with select guys and gals I know are good players. If I had a nickel for everytime I saw a blaster firing away on a boss (one I'm fighting and not needing help with either for that matter), aggro'n the whole pack of minions around him, and getting attacked and dying, then get blamed cause I should have been there to defend them, well, my subscription would be paid into next year easily!
Why is this? I don't know. Like Synch said, a lot of blasters I have teamed with or just seen street cleaning, fall prey more often than any other AT. Part of it is poor play, and given the weaknesses a blaster has (namely minute HP's and utter lack of defense) of course a blaster who is not in tune to strategy will accumulate debt much more rapidly than other AT's.
A lot of other AT's play poorly too, but they can afford to, since they have a better scenario to work with, i.e, not as much damage as a blaster, but better DEf and higher HP's.
All in all, I think a simple rule of life holds true...If something offends me, it might just be because it's true. Attacking Synch because he's telling the truth doesn't accomplish much. If the DEVS took a poll of all blasters and asked if they would give up some of their massive damage for more HP's and Def, I wonder what the results would be. Anyone can get into debt quickly if they can't play (although now they won't realize it until lvl 10!) but the very make up of a blaster makes it easier for them to accumulate debt, because poor play feeds on the weaknesses of the toon.
So chill, and don't take stuff so personally. There are very few absolutes in life.
Peace
[/ QUOTE ]
Not suprising considering that many of the guys that I run into that play Blasters are from the first person shooter games. Based on my observations, the idea is shoot fast and often and be the last on standing.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The majority of Blasters are not careful or skilled (very in the minority). In my blurb I alluded to this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that's a good point.
[ QUOTE ]
My point was merely to demonstrate that blasters work amid a habitat of debt, moreso than the other archetypes. And I wasn't making 'amazing generalizations'--I sited specific circumstances on how most blasters get into debt,
[/ QUOTE ]
It's the terms like "most" and "majority" that are making me think "generalizations". However, it's probably not fair to nitpick your word choices.
My point is that earning debt is directly influenced by our playstyle choices. If the majority of Blasters are not careful or skilled enough to avoid living in debt, then I don't see that as a problem with the Blaster archetype. It is possible to play a Blaster who doesn't rack up much debt at all. You seem to be expressing that debt is automatically a feature of playing a Blaster. I disagree and say that Blasters who are constantly in debt are making choices that are earning that debt. A Tanker or Scrapper who constantly takes on too much can be in the same situation.
Knowing and staying within your limitations is an important part of this game, and debt is how the game encourages you to do so (in the future). People who don't learn from that debt will continue to get more of it frequently. If those type of people are gravitating toward playing Blasters, then, maybe that would explain why so many Blasters feel like they are always in debt.
[ QUOTE ]
as well as illustrating the clear nature of acquiring aggro as blaster: Blasters generate far more aggro because they out-damage controllers and defenders and are in highly-offensive postures (e.g. rapidly activating offensive powers agumented with build-up, hasten, aim).
[/ QUOTE ]
All true. Blasters trying to solo a group appropriate for a Tanker or a Scrapper of their level are looking for pain (more true the higher the level in question). Grouping is the same, or even worse, since Blasters often have powers with the potential to shift all the villains spawned for the entire group directly onto themselves. That's a good reason to group with a Tanker or two, and make sure they have agro firmly in their grasp before tossing down agro-robbing AoE's.
I have two Blasters that I play. Each of them is defeated from time to time. Neither of them live in constant debt; in fact, I'd say that most of their play time is spent out of debt. I'm not trying to be difficult or annoying, I just disagree with what some of what you're saying because my experience is different.
[/ QUOTE ]
You see though the only problem with that is originally the Blasters were supposed to be the mega-damage dealers in COH. That's why the developers didn't give them more health. They didn't want to create Tankmages. However, when the developers started to modify the other classes the Blasters got left behind. So that's why Blasters have the most debt because it's an AT, that's major function is to do Mega-damage and it doesn't. That's the problem.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was using a light-hearted analogy to illustrate a point about human nature--you've taken me out of context. Keep to the subject, bud. I'm not talking about politics or astrophysics, I'm talking about day-to-day observations on a sub-set of people that play this game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Awll no, you made a sweeping generalization about how the world works with absolutely no reference to City of Heros at all.
In fact, you made a sweeping generalization defending sweeping generalizations.
Let's look at it again.
[ QUOTE ]
Just because I can't "substantiate" with hard data doesn't mean it's any less accurate,
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually yes it does, by definition.
[ QUOTE ]
like in this example: most jerks don't have a lot of friends. Can I substantiate that with numbers? Have I met all of the jerks in the world? No, but from observation one can make these kinds of accurate generalizations.
[/ QUOTE ]
So take a subjective term "jerk" an unquantifiable AND subjective variable "number of friends". Then, set-up a straw man argument that somehow you would have to meet all the jerks in the world in order to be able to gather actual evidence to back up your unsubstantiated claims.
And, of course, once you are called on your shoddy debating techniques:
-Accuse ther person who points out the flaws in your logic of nmt having a sense of humour
-Claim you were taken out of context
-Accuse the other person of straying off topic despite the fact your original point was off topic and
-Claim you made caveats in your initial claim you didn't, despite the evidence being quoted in the body of the same message
Do you teach a course in poor discussion technique?
In short: all generlizations are wrong; including this one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Simply untrue,
All generalizations are not wrong. That in and of itself makes you wrong because you chose to generalize. For example, all water on the planet is made of oxygen and hydrogen, all people, that are human live on planet earth, all life on planet earth must eat to survive. All of these are generalizations that are true.
Secondly your supposition is also incorrect about not being able to prove something automatically makes it wrong. That too is a generalization. It is the basis of all science that a theory without prove can neither be right or wrong until it's has been proven to be one or the other. Also it's is a supreme amount of arrogance to assume that you can prove everything in the universe to be true or false based on your limited understanding. We must admit that there are things we believe in that cannot be proven to be true at this time but in the future maybe so. Like a man can fly. Without that belief man never would have left the ground. So before you critcize him for his technique, I suggest you review your own.
Lothart said:
[ QUOTE ]
In short: all generlizations are wrong; including this one.
[/ QUOTE ]
BlackStormer replied
[ QUOTE ]
All generalizations are not wrong. That in and of itself makes you wrong because you chose to generalize.
[/ QUOTE ]
To which I reply:
Look up BlackStormer.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Couple of changes we're making in I5:
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
This was obviously put in to help blasters. This, combined with the new defiance system, will turn this game into CITY OF BLASTERS!
[/ QUOTE ]
Shut yer cakehole. Bloody every person wants the game their own special way. Ya know, being a blaster = being in perpetual debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
I play a blaster. I seldom have any debt at all. I play both in groups and solo.
If you play a blaster and you are constantly at the debt cap, you are probably doing something wrong. You may want to play another class. Blaster isn't for you.
No no.
Everyone knows that the blaster with the most mobs aggored to him WINS!
Why else would they give them so many ranged attacks or aoe's?
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
So its the tanker's objective to stop the blaster from winning?
[ QUOTE ]
If you play a blaster and you are constantly at the debt cap, you are probably doing something wrong. You may want to play another class. Blaster isn't for you.
[/ QUOTE ]
If they are having fuin, then they are not doing anything wrong. Let's remember there are people who deliberately stay in debt at all times to avoid out-levelling content.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I'm soloing, I'm pretty cautious, I move forward slowly. As such, I don't get that much debt on mission maps while soloing.
Where I do get debt is outside. Not from random street hunting, but the killer ambushes (2 lieutenants plus six minions) or from force hunting missions. I got two bubbles of debt from clearing the maw in striga, and (after waiting to hit 22 and getting influence from a high level character so I was completely fitted with SOs) three bubbles of debt from clearing the bog.
[/ QUOTE ]
Soloing in a Hazzard Zone is a great way to replentish a failing debt bar.
[/ QUOTE ]
According to Jack Emmert, you should be able to solo your own missions at heroic.
Striga has many hunting missions that are required to progress to the next part of the story.
[/ QUOTE ]
He has also said that Hazard and Trial zones are intended for groups.
The missions he's talking about are instanced missions, which are affected by your difficulty setting. The difficulty level of a Hazard zone (like Striga Isle) is not affected by your difficulty setting. The villain groups you will find there are typically larger than those in a mission set on Heroic difficulty. Some Heroes may be able to do their own hunting missions there (using appropriate tactics) without being defeated. Most will find that the safest way is to group.
I should have stopped paying you as soon as I realized that you were using my money to change the PvE game I love into a PvP game. It was foolish of me to trust you to leave PvE intact.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I'm soloing, I'm pretty cautious, I move forward slowly. As such, I don't get that much debt on mission maps while soloing.
Where I do get debt is outside. Not from random street hunting, but the killer ambushes (2 lieutenants plus six minions) or from force hunting missions. I got two bubbles of debt from clearing the maw in striga, and (after waiting to hit 22 and getting influence from a high level character so I was completely fitted with SOs) three bubbles of debt from clearing the bog.
[/ QUOTE ]
Soloing in a Hazzard Zone is a great way to replentish a failing debt bar.
[/ QUOTE ]
According to Jack Emmert, you should be able to solo your own missions at heroic.
Striga has many hunting missions that are required to progress to the next part of the story.
[/ QUOTE ]
He has also said that Hazard and Trial zones are intended for groups.
The missions he's talking about are instanced missions, which are affected by your difficulty setting. The difficulty level of a Hazard zone (like Striga Isle) is not affected by your difficulty setting. The villain groups you will find there are typically larger than those in a mission set on Heroic difficulty. Some Heroes may be able to do their own hunting missions there (using appropriate tactics) without being defeated. Most will find that the safest way is to group.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you are required to take missions to proceed, then they should be soloable at heroic (with the possible exception of elite bosses and definite exception of archvillains).
If a contact is throwing out hunting missions, and one is in a hazard zone, then that's one one thing. But when either it is required to progress in the story arc, or every bleeping contact is telling you to go talk to the contact for a mission in a hazard zone, either it should be possible to solo that hunting mission or it shouldn't be required to progress.
And, again, the other situation where you should get half debt when killed in the outside is due to ambushes.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
It's longer than one minute, but rest did have its recharge greatly reduced.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout