[ QUOTE ]
Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
[/ QUOTE ]
Since this will make it a lot harder to see everything you want to see at the early levels, can you *please* make it a priority to get flashback or some way to exemplar to yourself in place to allow players to better control their rate of advancement? Right now, pretty much the only tool we have is to deliberately debt-cap ourselves and try to stay that way as much as possible.
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1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
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meh. I havn't seen much of an issue as to require this, but you have the numbers.
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XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
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So...now you're going to make Hazard and Trial zones even less populated? I can see using less debt as a carrot for missions, but there are 6 Zones that are extremely baren, three of which that see less people than Hellen Keller ever did.
The real question is, did the mapper of Faultline get any recognition? Because the map sure as heck doesn't. 
Cyclone Jack
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As it stands, I think the main people I find wandering around hazard zones are....herders.
And me with my psychotic alt AR sniper. But that's because I can snipe and run and never, ever run out of things to one-shot. I'd do better on missions, but hazard zones are rather AE-friendly places with bit fat spawns packed close together.
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Um... baiting people to play missions? Why?
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Because that's where the game is, I'm just guessing.
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Priceless, thanks.
Perhaps I am a heretic for saying this, but maybe we shouldn't be able to do everything the first go-round. I know I certainly know I missed some good missions so I could do TFs. However, I quite enjoyed the taskforces. I started some more characters, and have experienced many new and wonderful things. If I hadn't started another character, I would have missed the awesome Frostfire mission. Even though my main hasn't been able to do it, it makes my alt special, and not just a (main) Jr., so I feel that it is worth it. I look foward to seeing this new fangled Striga Isle that I've heard so much about when my alt gets up there. (Sure, my main has been there, but that was just for Warwolf hunting. It's not the same as experiencing it.)
I also like the decision to reduce debt, although I think WoW has the right idea of nearly no death penalty, unless you are extremely impatient.
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Statesman I have tried to side with you on every change you have made. I understand that you are a visonary that has the best intentions at heart. I watched you build my invunerability/super strength tanker from poor to uber and I loved it. I have also seen names of people dear to me changed, some very very unsubstantial, but I have understood. But here is a change I can not side with you on, this change I feel is going too far.
You are NERFING debt.
And I will not take this and be quiet.
Debt is one of the many reasons I play this game. Debt is the major draw/focus of my supergroup, of the J-Force. If someones debt is not in the 7 figures they aren't J-Force.
I go OUT OF MY WAY to reach the debt cap every level. I have leveled in debt 7 levels in a row (since 33) I am the J-Man and my mass amounts of debt are one of my defining features.
First you take away debt until level 10. I'm saddened by this because nothing is more exciting then your first real death with debt. And now myself, my J-Force and the CoH community have to wait 5 more grueling levels until that first debt. But on this I understand, this is a kind of force/incentive to play beyond level 5 (something I rarely do besides my main).
The second one is really really tough for me. See the majority of my game play is with a large team on invincible missions. The J-Force and I get together NIGHTLY to go on what we coined Debt Runs(TM) and we dont' just keep it to ourselves we welcome any hero who wants to see what real fun is. With only receiving half debt you are effectivly forcing us to work three times as hard to do what we are now, hit debt cap.
I REFUSE to be forced to street hunt.
But after reading each and every post on this thread I see that this comunity is not made up of real men and woman. That its mostly sissy, wimps, wusses, chumps, wankers, girlie men, and even more girlie woman who can't seem to take their debt like the hardcore heros they are. Yes this is griefing of the entire community, because the many are making the life of the few so much more difficult.
Statesman, please, I beg you do not take my debt from me.
But if you do, I have one small request. Please Statesman, remove the debt cap. This way while it may take me longer (much longer) to accure massive amounts of debt I will never ever have to reach a point to where my deaths are worthless, every death will raise not only my purple bar, but my enjoyment of the game.
It has been my dream to out debt a level 50 before I reach it. Never ending debt *swoon*
I appologize if this post sounds rude, I don't want to be rude. I am just very upset at the prospect of losing the ease of my debt.
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Dude. Seriously.
You're playing the game backwards, and you want them not to make changes for you?
AND you have the nerve to get all uppity over on the Tank boards when it's your explicit goal to DIE A LOT?
For serious, lay off the pipe, bub. 
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for quoting him so I could read it, Foo. Dude made my /ignore list months ago.
Still appears to be a solid decision on my part.
Now I've thought about this and I'm not so sure reduced mission debt is such a good idea. Once people hit 32, get their really good powers and already now start getting reduces debt (from the usual ½ bub) play style shifts from slow and cautious to fast and reckless (the larger groups the worse), some AT's may take a few more defeats, but in terms of xp/hour even they are probably better off.
This change - while probably meant to get people off the street - will also go to make this more pronounced.
I'd prefer that strategic play played more of a role post 32, but that's probably just me. Already now I try to avoid too big groups to get a chance to see what's going on, and to use MY abilities (more focused on defeat prevention than fast and furious damage for the win) at their best.
Alas - I have no alternatives to getting people off the street, so...
//AtCbM// www.crystalblue.dk
Victory - Mare,Dagger of Pain,Keep,Hogun and Bloodpetal
The Keep-Arcs: 164260, 188373, 192610, 196090 and funny side-chapter 218575.
Mender-Arc: 266163
Any other info States, on what we can expect?
States:
does this fall under your theory of risk vs. reward?
Although I can see the direction that you're trying to take - rewarding people who do missions and play the content vice PLing - I disagree with the implementation.
Lowering the penalty for being defeated is rewarding bad gameplay. The entire reason the Debt system is in place is so players won't think of their avatars as "disposable." But eliminating debt until after lvl 10 does just that, as poeple will dispose of their avatar in high lvl mobs just to get use the hospital as a mass-transit system. Wasn't tha Paragon Dance Club moved because it was being exploited like this (in a different way)?
Also, halving the death penalty in missions also rewards bad gameplay. What kind of tactics will people use if the penalty for playing badly is lowered? People will just rush AVs and other high-level mobs, get killed, and then get a TP & Rez from a teammate to repeat the process. It's not the way a mission is meant to be played. It also won't stop people from farming in missions (herd, reset mission, repeat).
This is just my opinion. I like the idea of rewarding players who play through the game content, but I don't think this is the way to do it.
Jack,
Both are great ideas, and useful to the players as a whole.
Nice job.
Regs,
muffinlad
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1) No debt for 5-10 may permit players to outlevel story arcs in that range.
2) Debt reduction on missions is nice, but doesn't accomplish the seeming goal. Two options to meet this goal are:
2a) increase mission completion XP to be substantially more than when compared to the XP gained from minions in the mission
2b) reward mission completers with XP gains on future mission completion in the future (a positive feedback loop)
[/ QUOTE ]
I would add:
3) don't allow players to reset missions. Even if you quit, when you return to the game, everything is the same as when you left the mission. The defeated mobs are gone, the undefeated mobs still there, and so forth.
4) give players the ability to ditch missions.
[ QUOTE ]
Statesman I have tried to side with you on every change you have made. I understand that you are a visonary that has the best intentions at heart. I watched you build my invunerability/super strength tanker from poor to uber and I loved it. I have also seen names of people dear to me changed, some very very unsubstantial, but I have understood. But here is a change I can not side with you on, this change I feel is going too far.
You are NERFING debt.
And I will not take this and be quiet.
Debt is one of the many reasons I play this game. Debt is the major draw/focus of my supergroup, of the J-Force. If someones debt is not in the 7 figures they aren't J-Force.
I go OUT OF MY WAY to reach the debt cap every level. I have leveled in debt 7 levels in a row (since 33) I am the J-Man and my mass amounts of debt are one of my defining features.
First you take away debt until level 10. I'm saddened by this because nothing is more exciting then your first real death with debt. And now myself, my J-Force and the CoH community have to wait 5 more grueling levels until that first debt. But on this I understand, this is a kind of force/incentive to play beyond level 5 (something I rarely do besides my main).
The second one is really really tough for me. See the majority of my game play is with a large team on invincible missions. The J-Force and I get together NIGHTLY to go on what we coined Debt Runs(TM) and we dont' just keep it to ourselves we welcome any hero who wants to see what real fun is. With only receiving half debt you are effectivly forcing us to work three times as hard to do what we are now, hit debt cap.
I REFUSE to be forced to street hunt.
But after reading each and every post on this thread I see that this comunity is not made up of real men and woman. That its mostly sissy, wimps, wusses, chumps, wankers, girlie men, and even more girlie woman who can't seem to take their debt like the hardcore heros they are. Yes this is griefing of the entire community, because the many are making the life of the few so much more difficult.
Statesman, please, I beg you do not take my debt from me.
But if you do, I have one small request. Please Statesman, remove the debt cap. This way while it may take me longer (much longer) to accure massive amounts of debt I will never ever have to reach a point to where my deaths are worthless, every death will raise not only my purple bar, but my enjoyment of the game.
It has been my dream to out debt a level 50 before I reach it. Never ending debt *swoon*
I appologize if this post sounds rude, I don't want to be rude. I am just very upset at the prospect of losing the ease of my debt.
Thank you for your time
JFS
-The Legendary J-Man-
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Sadly, these boards are filled with folks who don't understand the concept of humor and you probably see the flames out there (dim flames at that).
You rock. If you're on protector look up my blaster, miss dynamo - we'll grab some debt.
I think this is a really bad idea.
Debt at the moment comes and goes and adds a certain risk to the game. Removing this or lessening this removes any risk to the game. With these changes debt will mean even less so who will care whether they die or not.
Debt for level 10 and below is NOTHING and is gone before you even know you have got it (I actually think this is true for the whole game). I dont understand these changes at all.
This reduces the incentive to use tactics and strategy to complete a hard mission. Now we will have a lot more people rushing in without thinking.
There are currently about 7 Hazard zones with no contacts in them. These zones tend to be fairly empty at the moment. Isn't this change just going to make these zones almost pointless. The only time people will go here is to travel to a door mission so why use a whole zone to do that?
I really dont see the need for these changes. PLEASE do NOT make them live, there are enough people playing without thinking without creating more.
[ QUOTE ]
Sadly, these boards are filled with folks who don't understand the concept of humor and you probably see the flames out there (dim flames at that).
You rock. If you're on protector look up my blaster, miss dynamo - we'll grab some debt.
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Yeah, tho, see, um... I run with J-Man, over on Freedom, and I'm part of his SG.
He's not kidding. He's dead serious.
[ QUOTE ]
Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
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w00000t!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tortured Hero LVL 50 Energy/Devices Science Blaster
Underworld Hero LVL 50 DM/DA Natural Scrapper
Heaven's Hero LVL 50 Invul/SS Natural Tanker
Dr. Hero LVL 41 Empath/Rad Magic Defender
Founder/Leader of Forged By Fate
States:
Lots of responses here discussing people "suiciding" to get a free TP to the hospital.
I would recommend that you create an accolade that can be earned at early levels (something you could earn at level 2) that would allow you to initiate a Teleport to the Hospital.
Make it an interruptable power that takes a long time to cast (10 seconds-ish?) so people can't use it to escape hairy situations but can use it to get around quicker before their travel power.
Conceptually, it makes sense. They can TP you when you are defeated, they ought to be able to TP you when you're still alive, too. (Maybe make it cost you some influence to use.)
Playwise it makes sense. It will never be convenient enough to replace travel powers, but it sure will make the lower levels more pleasant to play. And, as noted, it's nothing you can't do for the first 10 levels now that they're debt free.
I could see you getting it for visitng markers on the low-level hospitals (Atlas, Galacy, King's Row, Maybe Steel Canyon), hunting a lowbie number of hellions, clox and vahz and doing a mission for the City Representative (same one who sends you on cape missions later).
IMO you should never be able to escape a situation quicker than you could by logging with this suggested power. Make it 30 seconds, and I'm ok with it.
//AtCbM// www.crystalblue.dk
Victory - Mare,Dagger of Pain,Keep,Hogun and Bloodpetal
The Keep-Arcs: 164260, 188373, 192610, 196090 and funny side-chapter 218575.
Mender-Arc: 266163
"Suicide travel will be more common. I know I'll use it on early alts. On the wrong side of the zone, or need to get to some spot closer to the hospital than where you are? Kill yourself and you get a free port to the other side of the zone.
This isn't game breaking, but pushing the debt free levels up to 10 means that people will have more opportunity and reason to exploit a game mechanic for an unintended side effect."
Simple solution: make Super Speed and Fly available at level 6 instead of level 14. What in the world is the justification for having it at level 14 anyway? Keep people out of PI? (Like that works. Saw a level 3 at Portal Corp. the other day).
Super Speed or Fly at level 6 shouldn't be an issue: even level 1's are "superheroes" in this game. Give them the travel powers they need to explore the zones earlier.
BTW, I rarely do Flux missions in The Hollows until I have - essentially - outleveled them precisely because it's too dangerous getting to and from them. Of course by then, they're not worth doing.
Travel powers at level 6 are a better solution all the way around, and would make the game more fun for the casual gamer.
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IMO you should never be able to escape a situation quicker than you could by logging with this suggested power. Make it 30 seconds, and I'm ok with it.
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I agree you should never be able to use it to escape an attack. That's why I suggested that TP to Hospital is 10 seconds INTERRUPTABLE, which means if you are attacked even once in those 10 seconds, the TP doesn't happen. (Logout happens in 30 seconds even if you are under attack.) So you would not be able to escape a combat situation with the accolade at all. You could only use it when you are not under attack.
The half death debt in missions is either or both to tempt people to do missions more and counter the higher death rate compared to street hunting when you get the tough group/bad group etc esp in TFs.
Now this change will help in the latter case obviously and a little in the first case, but the reason people street hunt over missions is, despite the increased mission xp you put in a hile back, street hunting is still far better to gain xp.
The problem is all the running about with missions.
When street hunting you are constantly earning xp, with a mission you have to run to conatcta to get the mission and then run to the mission. The xp bonus for the mission is far to small to counterbalance all the dead time you get doing missiosn that you dont get street hunting.
The mission xp bonus needs to be significantly increased so the bonus does in fact counterbalance all the dead time. If you made all contacts callable from the start the dead time would be reduced for that period of time so the mission xp bonus wouldnt need such a boost.
You can often have to cross 3 or more zones for a single mission, thats a lot of time the street hunter is still getting xp where the mission hunter isnt, if you have to run to contact and then to mission this could be doubled!
I dont have mission bonus xp for varying lvls to hand but i do know its way to low to counterbalance all the running about you get with missions you dont with street hunting before you start to earn xp.
Something like 10-30 street kills will get the mission bonus xp, and you can do that many far faster than crossing 3+ zones
Perhaps the Dev's should either increase xp for mobs in the missions for decrease the xp for mobs outside of a mission to make doing missions more attractive. Still there are two types of players out there. Those who want to level as fast as possible and those that want to see all the content. Some even purposely gain debt so to see all the content possible. I've done both sides of the street. I actually prefer missions now, I don't have to worry about KS'ing, and I feel that I'm actually leveling faster doing the missions.
Also some other thoughts on making missions more attractive...give more cool temp powers in the early levels (like the ones in the arena, especially the travel ones) and make them random, who wouldn't want like the leap, flight or tp to get around. Give out DO's for Story Arc Completion instead of TO's in the early levels. Give Mission Bosses the possible chance to drop DO's in the early levels, and SO's in the teens. When DO's are available, give out SO's for Story Arc completion. If you do everything from a contact and they have absolutely nothing else for you, have them give out a special gift. I'd suggest not messing with the xp too much, maybe a slight increase to mission completion bonus. I think the the 30-40 range, mission completion needs a big step up and possibly better xp for the mobs in the mission, unless more content is on the way for those levels. Just my 2 influence.
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As it stands, I think the main people I find wandering around hazard zones are....herders.
[/ QUOTE ]
My point is that ther are many zones; Perez, Boomtown, Faultline, Dark Astoria, Eden; that get little to no use any more. Perez used to be booming with people, but not everyone is in the Hollows because they are required to go there. Not many people know you can just talk to the contact and leave. Boomtown was, at one time, the place to go to group and level. Heck even Faultline was good for a good group. Now, the only reason people enter those zones are for missions. At least Eden is getting more traffic with people going to the Hive for Hamidon.
I really do appriciate all the work that has been put into this game, and the work that has been pout into the new zones. Striga and the Hollows are pretty cool, quite fun, and have some good content there. I5 gives us yet another new zone. Why not use what we learned from Hollows and Striga to REDO Perez, Boomtown, Faultline, DA, etc. Add contacts and missions, put in some story, drop in a few cool and unique missions, and get people wanting to go there. New zones are not needed for content, fixing the 6 dead zones would fix the lack of content.
Oh, and something about XP and I5 (trying to stay on topic a bit)
Cyclone Jack
-= idspispopd =-
[size=1]Arc ID: 3155 - Project Prometheus (Seeking Feedback, now with less invalidation)[/size]
[ QUOTE ]
I really do appriciate all the work that has been put into this game, and the work that has been pout into the new zones. Striga and the Hollows are pretty cool, quite fun, and have some good content there. I5 gives us yet another new zone. Why not use what we learned from Hollows and Striga to REDO Perez, Boomtown, Faultline, DA, etc. Add contacts and missions, put in some story, drop in a few cool and unique missions, and get people wanting to go there. New zones are not needed for content, fixing the 6 dead zones would fix the lack of content.
[/ QUOTE ]
/Agreed. Last time I saw a number of poeple in ANY of these zones was during the WL event. SInce then it's been nothing but tumbleweed and hobos
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-= idspispopd =-
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idkfa 
LMAO!
[ QUOTE ]
I really do appriciate all the work that has been put into this game, and the work that has been pout into the new zones. Striga and the Hollows are pretty cool, quite fun, and have some good content there. I5 gives us yet another new zone. Why not use what we learned from Hollows and Striga to REDO Perez, Boomtown, Faultline, DA, etc. Add contacts and missions, put in some story, drop in a few cool and unique missions, and get people wanting to go there. New zones are not needed for content, fixing the 6 dead zones would fix the lack of content.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a great idea, I would love to see each of the hazard zones have contacts added with their own unique missions, with temp powers etc, just like Striga has. Maybe even add a TF to each zone.
This would essentially make 7 new zones. The mobs would not have to change, still allowing people to hunt.
[ QUOTE ]
Just a thought, reading some of the concepts, maybe you're dealing with debt from the wrong end?
Maybe debt should be accumulated as normal, but missions should burn it off twice as fast? (I.E....an enemy is defeated that gives 100 XP. On live you gain 50 XP and burn off 50XP. I'm prpoposing that you gain 50 XP and burn off 100XP.)
It also gives you more "tweaking points". When doing something particularly heroic, you burn off faster. When doing something borderline, you burn off slower.
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I like this idea much better. It seems to encourage doing missions even more. Even street sweepers might be more inclined to do a mission if they can burn their debt off twice as fast.
I think the no debt until level 10 is actually a bad change from the standpoint that it encourages recklessness for much longer. 4 levels of reckless play is learning the game. 10 levels turns it into a bad habit that is going to be hard to break. Perhaps making the hollows and perez park not suck so much would be a better solution? Maybe level 7 missions should not be placed in hollows red zones or in the middle of the woods in Perez Park? Maybe heroes should get together and build a safety wall around those ditches of doom in the hollows, making it harder to accidentally fall into them. Of course this change is also silly because the debt at level 10 is so small and irrelevant anyway.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.