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Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
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Well, that sounds... weird. Are people just not doing missions any more or something?
Removing debt is what a lot of players are crying for, but by taking out the disincentive to dying you'll cheapen the game. Instead how about if you cut debt by 50% per death in a mission? First death = 100 debt; second = 50; 3rd = 25, and so forth. That would give players a reason to keep trying instead of giving up.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
And that doesn't cheapen things? That makes even less debt than what States said.
#1 is a head-scratcher. Debt from 5-10 is negligible, but it's the beginning of teaching people that suicide running is dumb. Keep the player IQ higher. Don't do it. People should be learning about debt once they leave the newbie zones. All this does is keep them doing the wrong things longer.
#2 is a nice way to encourage more mission play.
So, you're making it impossible not to outlevel contacts and miss a bunch of things in the game.
You're making it even less likely that anyone will ever get to the Caverns Of Transcendence.
Outlevling the contacts is a real problem for the group of us who like to miss nothing, and keeping debt constantly is the only way we have to prevent it.
If contacts responded to security level instead of combat level, we could choose not to level till we wanted, and that would fix it for some of us, but I'm not shure who it would upset.
I'm such a geek. Some of my heroes have journals.
[ QUOTE ]
States sorry to do it, but I got to use your own words against you. If you're going to halve debt, then it should be across the board. The ability to do missions solo varies by AT. Street sweeping was supposed to be there for the people who have problems soloing missions. It's supposed to give them something to do. Now you want to punish that behavior.
You said:
[ QUOTE ]
I've stated before - I don't want FORCED grouping.
All Archetypes CAN solo. Some do it slowly, some do it quickly. Some can solo most missions, some can solo fewer missions. And worse comes to worse - a hero can always hunt the streets and stop some crime there. That was always the intent of city zones.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your post
Has this changed? What this is going to do is further widen the solo gap among the ATs. It seems to run contrary to your stated goals. Perhaps those goals have changed.
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Since I did so well guessing the intent of 3minions=1hero, I'll take a shot and say that there is a difference between FORCED teaming and ENCOURAGED teaming.
Statesman has always said the game should allow people to solo. Such people shouldn't care all that much about how fast or slow they level relative to others, because, well, what others, they solo.
Statesman has also said they want to encourage running missions, and grouping. He stated directly that he believes the best part of MMOs is the grouping. So while he wants CoH to have a refuge for soloers, by trying to ensure they can always experience the game at their own pace, contrawise he wants to encourage mission running and teams, because that is where the heart of an MMO really lies.
He never stated, and it is never implied, that soloers should experience the game *in the same way* or *at the same speed* as teamed people. The teaming bonus alone guarantees that won't happen.
In any case, separate from that, there is only one class that really gets speed-penalized by the debt-halving (or rather, isn't helped much compared to other ATs) and that is low level controllers. Low level controllers already do solo missions safely, but slowly, so debt doesn't matter so much to them. Practically all other ATs can take advantage of the rise in the debt level floor by attacking faster and riskier, if they so choose. They can attempt to learn their ATs strengths and weaknesses quicker and in higher risk situations without penalty, something difficult to do at level 5 when all ATs are practically the same squishy two-attack wielders.
I'm sure that is partially the intent - to assist people that learn the ropes slower or have limited experience with MMOs, and need more time to figure it all out. It also hopefully means that when you get a bunch of new players into a team at level 9, if someone makes a mistake and wipes the team, it isn't cause for insane retribution, but rather an educational moment, since the penalty isn't so bad.
Give controllers, at least the low level ones, the triple damage bonus on held targets, and controllers could theoretically catch up to the other ATs in the early going. A really interesting way to give this bonus to the early controllers, and have it fade away as the controllers level, is to allow the triple damage bonus on held targets for *base damage* only, not enhanced damage. That would make it a really great boost for early controllers, and it would slowly, gradually fade away to a small amount at high controller levels.
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In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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People, seriously.
If you don't like this change because the game is too easy for you; it wasn't implemented for you.
If you feel like it does nothing since you rarely die; it wasn't implemented for you.
Astonishing as it may seem, there are actually players out there that don't frequent the boards and are struggling, yes, even after they get SOs, to solo their own missions.
Those are the people who this is for. This change is to help lessen the frustration of those players at the bottom end of the curve. You know them. They're the ones that can't solo their own missions and worship you when you come in at a lesser level than them and clear the thing out.
And here's the beauty part: this does NOTHING to hamper your gameplay! I mean, really, they could just make purples harder again, if you want...
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heh... 5 more levels of using the hospital as the fastst travel power in the game 
In the Hollows: Ding, level 8 at last!
*runs into a spawn of lvl 15 trolls because it's the fastest way to get back to Ms. Liberty.*
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LOL! 
Too true!
Seriously, this is a nice change for the new players as well as those of us with Alt-itis. 
Sign It : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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This rocks. I think I can also infer an ulterior motive.
1) PLers will have to follow their PL people around, because of the 300 foot XP thing.
2) PLers will not be in missions. They will be in the streets.
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I don't understand why #2 would be the case.
Serious PLers will be in missions just like they have always been, where the PL'ee doesn't have to follow the PL'er anyway.
PLers in the streets will be in exactly the same position they were before this XP change. It only has an effect relative to being in missions.
Are there no interim patches anymore? Why would these arguably minor changes be saved for I5? Seems....odd.
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Are there no interim patches anymore? Why would these arguably minor changes be saved for I5? Seems....odd.
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Possibly because they'll integrate with other changes coming for I5?
States, how will this change affect 'go hunt 10 skuls' missions? Those are just as challenging as mission maps and often need teams too, but if we get defeated on a hunt mission, will we still get full debt?
Of course, if you're removing hunting missions altogether and introducing new missions with new art and so forth, that would be fandiddlydangtastic..
[ QUOTE ]
So, you're making it impossible not to outlevel contacts and miss a bunch of things in the game.
You're making it even less likely that anyone will ever get to the Caverns Of Transcendence.
Outlevling the contacts is a real problem for the group of us who like to miss nothing, and keeping debt constantly is the only way we have to prevent it.
If contacts responded to security level instead of combat level, we could choose not to level till we wanted, and that would fix it for some of us, but I'm not shure who it would upset.
[/ QUOTE ]
They have repeatedly said that the game isn't designed to have 1 character experience 100% of the content. You really have to go out of your way to do so. They want us to roll new characters as more content in added and redo updated content. There is no gaurantee that your 1 guy will be able to do everthing.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
Love it.
I've been levelling up alts these past weeks and my Storm/Elec defender must have faceplanted 4 times against one eidolon boss. He was level 8 and underpowered as they come, even with the necessary training enhancements.
It's like, how can you survive when you miss 8 out of 10 attacks and get hit for 30-40 damage 5 or 6 times in a row?
I say yes to no debt until level 10 and half XP debt on door missions. Well done.
[ QUOTE ]
Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
Very cool, I might actually do the hollows content before level 10-11 now.
[ QUOTE ]
States, how will this change affect 'go hunt 10 skuls' missions? Those are just as challenging as mission maps and often need teams too, but if we get defeated on a hunt mission, will we still get full debt?
[/ QUOTE ]
I've always found those missions easier, and more boring, than door missions.
On a street kill X mission you can go for greys or greens if you just want the mission out of the way. You choose the level you take on, pretty much. If I take on mobs that are higher than me, I kite them. Can't do that indoors. You also have more room to run if you have to, unlike in a door mission.
Not to mention that if you're soloing it and see a group of 8 mobs, but across the street see a group of 3...take the 3 since you're alone. I always go for the smaller groups on a solo outdoor mission. But if I'm soloing indoors, and there are 9 or 12 mobs in one spot, I have no choice but to risk it. And the only way out is running back to the exit which could be across a map of cavern tunnels, or a warehouse with crates that insist on jumping in my way.
I have to admit that I am a bit...concerned at the half-debt in missions, but not on the street, thing. I don't see it as a solo vs team thing (and I'm rabid about my ability to solo), and I'm not really against the change.
It just seems to me that if you were to ask what deaths are most arbitrary and not under player control, the answer would be deaths during travel from running into excessively high-level mobs. Hollows groups spawning on top of you, snipers out of sight range in Founder's Falls or Crey's, DE outside your mission entrance, Rikti camping your contact...for a mission-running player, those are going to be the deaths that hurt most under the new system, and they're the ones that the player has the least amount of control over.
Okay, admittedly I was a bit worried about the whole no-debt-until-lvl-10 thing, because that's how I can even dream of affording Dual Origin enhancements at lvl 12. With this change, I would only have two levels to stay in perma-debt, rather than seven, which means less influence.
Then I referred to my debt cheat-sheet, which tells me how much debt a hero can get before they hit the cap:
Lvl 5: 500
Lvl 6: 750
Lvl 7: 1000
Lvl 8: 1250
Lvl 9: 1500
Lvl 10: 2000
Lvl 11: 2750
Lvl 12: 3500
So when lvl 5 through nine debt caps go away, and (assuming one influence per debt worked off) thus I can say good-bye to 500 + 750 + 1000 + 1250 + 1500 = 5000 influence -- about double that if I stayed in perma-debt.
However, while I *can* stay in perma-debt, I usually find it extremely frustrating around lvl 9 or so and stop finding ways to kill myself, in pursuit of the mystical lvl 14 and some sort of travel power. Which means I miss out on seven thousand influence (or thereabouts, double if perma) *anyway*, and yet I'm still able to almost entirely load up on Dual Origins at lvl 12.
So under the new system, I only have to stay in debt for two levels, which isn't near enough to frustrate the bejeezus out of me. That's (2000*2)+(2750*2) = 9500 influence (the multiplication assumes perma, since debt is capped at approximately five bubbles), a net gain of 4500 influence, plus the occasional bonus for bosses, saving civilians, etc.
Of course, I'll have to test these numbers out with an actual character to see whether or not my math is right, but on paper the outlook appears favourable. Those who actually have the willpower to stay in debt from lvls 5 - 12 will probably sorely miss the extra five to ten thousand influence, but, as I'm not one of them, that doesn't affect me. At any rate, I look forward to trying this out.
"We are looking into the possiblity of maybe someday thinking about maybe implementing something similar to this, in the future."
- Positron
Statesman I have tried to side with you on every change you have made. I understand that you are a visonary that has the best intentions at heart. I watched you build my invunerability/super strength tanker from poor to uber and I loved it. I have also seen names of people dear to me changed, some very very unsubstantial, but I have understood. But here is a change I can not side with you on, this change I feel is going too far.
You are NERFING debt.
And I will not take this and be quiet.
Debt is one of the many reasons I play this game. Debt is the major draw/focus of my supergroup, of the J-Force. If someones debt is not in the 7 figures they aren't J-Force.
I go OUT OF MY WAY to reach the debt cap every level. I have leveled in debt 7 levels in a row (since 33) I am the J-Man and my mass amounts of debt are one of my defining features.
First you take away debt until level 10. I'm saddened by this because nothing is more exciting then your first real death with debt. And now myself, my J-Force and the CoH community have to wait 5 more grueling levels until that first debt. But on this I understand, this is a kind of force/incentive to play beyond level 5 (something I rarely do besides my main).
The second one is really really tough for me. See the majority of my game play is with a large team on invincible missions. The J-Force and I get together NIGHTLY to go on what we coined Debt Runs(TM) and we dont' just keep it to ourselves we welcome any hero who wants to see what real fun is. With only receiving half debt you are effectivly forcing us to work three times as hard to do what we are now, hit debt cap.
I REFUSE to be forced to street hunt.
But after reading each and every post on this thread I see that this comunity is not made up of real men and woman. That its mostly sissy, wimps, wusses, chumps, wankers, girlie men, and even more girlie woman who can't seem to take their debt like the hardcore heros they are. Yes this is griefing of the entire community, because the many are making the life of the few so much more difficult.
Statesman, please, I beg you do not take my debt from me.
But if you do, I have one small request. Please Statesman, remove the debt cap. This way while it may take me longer (much longer) to accure massive amounts of debt I will never ever have to reach a point to where my deaths are worthless, every death will raise not only my purple bar, but my enjoyment of the game.
It has been my dream to out debt a level 50 before I reach it. Never ending debt *swoon*
I appologize if this post sounds rude, I don't want to be rude. I am just very upset at the prospect of losing the ease of my debt.
Thank you for your time
JFS
-The Legendary J-Man-
Yus!
This is an outrage! I to want to have to level ten times to gain one level! I must not be aloud to reach level 50 untill the year 2010!
So says the Kitten of Cute Cuddly Evilness!
Hmmm. I started thinking (never a good sign) and remembered this post:
[ QUOTE ]
Now that I know they're comming, I'm gonna get an alt to level 5. I'll max my debt, then retire him. Heh, new players would be amazed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Playing-with-newbies-fun aside: let's say you get a hero to level five. You max out his debt. Issue five gets released. Two questions arise:
1) will the hero still have debt?
2) if the answer to the above is "yes", and the hero is defeated again, does the debt stick around or go poof?
In a worse-case-scenario, this (admittedly unlikely) event culminates with the firey explosion of the server in question, which is why I ask.
"We are looking into the possiblity of maybe someday thinking about maybe implementing something similar to this, in the future."
- Positron
[ QUOTE ]
The second one is really really tough for me. See the majority of my game play is with a large team on invincible missions. The J-Force and I get together NIGHTLY to go on what we coined Debt Runs(TM) and we dont' just keep it to ourselves we welcome any hero who wants to see what real fun is. With only receiving half debt you are effectivly forcing us to work three times as hard to do what we are now, hit debt cap.
I REFUSE to be forced to street hunt.
But after reading each and every post on this thread I see that this comunity is not made up of real men and woman. That its mostly sissy, wimps, wusses, chumps, wankers, girlie men, and even more girlie woman who can't seem to take their debt like the hardcore heros they are. Yes this is griefing of the entire community, because the many are making the life of the few so much more difficult.
Statesman, please, I beg you do not take my debt from me.
But if you do, I have one small request. Please Statesman, remove the debt cap. This way while it may take me longer (much longer) to accure massive amounts of debt I will never ever have to reach a point to where my deaths are worthless, every death will raise not only my purple bar, but my enjoyment of the game.
It has been my dream to out debt a level 50 before I reach it. Never ending debt *swoon*
[/ QUOTE ]
I can see how this would be a significant hardship for you and your fellow players, and I feel for you. What I can suggest is, before starting the mission sessions, have all the participants take a midnight run through perez park with no toggle defenses and no stealth to go chat with the Eidolons. After reassembling after that little stroll, you can all start your missions pre-padded with significant debt.
If you are higher and have travel powers, may I suggest visiting the lovely zoo we have in Paragon City, located right off the coast of Peregrine Island. After just a few minutes of "pet the monkeys" you should be all set. Stock up on awakens, it'll go faster.
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In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
heh... 5 more levels of using the hospital as the fastst travel power in the game
In the Hollows: Ding, level 8 at last!
*runs into a spawn of lvl 15 trolls because it's the fastest way to get back to Ms. Liberty.*
[/ QUOTE ]
And i thought i was the only one who did this hehe. I still do it even after im able to collect debt. yay a tp to another zone whooohhoooo.
[/ QUOTE ]
What goes around comes around: starting about 11 levels from now (I see you are 34), this will become your fast exit out of the Hive.
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In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Debt hardly a penalty? Ever played a blaster? You usually die 1 or 2 times a session until lvl 20!!! So Xp runs very slow ...
Freedom :
Fission Lass 50 Illusion/radiation controller
Gaea's Wrath 50 Earth/Empathy controller
Khalan the confessor 26 psy/mental blaster
Dusk Tempest 50 Dark / electricity defender
Aish the geomancer 36 Plant/thermal controller
JFS almost sounds like a cult. Spooky.
"OOOOPPPSSSS." -Statesman
there can be deaths when you have several people in the group that think intellegent to be tenacious or unyielding and forget to tell that to other people who are 1 or 2 levels below them, that really kills !
Freedom :
Fission Lass 50 Illusion/radiation controller
Gaea's Wrath 50 Earth/Empathy controller
Khalan the confessor 26 psy/mental blaster
Dusk Tempest 50 Dark / electricity defender
Aish the geomancer 36 Plant/thermal controller
[ QUOTE ]
heh... 5 more levels of using the hospital as the fastst travel power in the game
In the Hollows: Ding, level 8 at last!
*runs into a spawn of lvl 15 trolls because it's the fastest way to get back to Ms. Liberty.*
[/ QUOTE ]
And i thought i was the only one who did this hehe. I still do it even after im able to collect debt. yay a tp to another zone whooohhoooo.