[ QUOTE ]
Not that I'm complaining really, but why?
Debt is hardly even a penalty, and now it's being mitigated further? Perhaps I'm alone here, but I don't get it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Debt IS a penalty for a LOT of people.
Harsh too when you consider WoW has no debt but equipment fatigue and an optional run back to your body(if no in has rez). the cost is minimal time and some in game $. Comparatively in CoH there is a run back to your team AND extra time spent in a level. There are more harsh games, where you can even be demoted a level, I do realize that. No, I don't want to turn this into a WoW vs CoH thread. realize the differences and lets move on shall we?
CoH has a very large "First MMO" playerbase. Most of these cats aren't power gamers and don't have the time to spend hours and hours and hours of game play. Debt extends the time a person has to spend in a level before they get the reward, be it a shiny new power or some helpful enhancements, Dig? Most of these new MMO converts aren't as good with their game skills so Debt happens more to them than to someone who's been playing similar games recently.
"They can exemplar!"
-You wont find them on the boards often but there are people who have NO idea what exemplaring is since it's not in the official manual. I've explained it to people recently.
I cannot tell you how excruciating it was to get debt with my fire blaster before my travel power and then just leading up to Inferno. Each death meant that I'd only be getting half xp gain from each kill. Fly was so close I could practically taste it. A couple times I had to just Log off for awhile before I did anything else to cause even more debt.
Debt is depressing. It is a frustrating deterrant to the more casual gamer. This is a more causal MMO than other games. yes there are players who take play up a notch and they are a pleasure to team with and awesome in action, but most players aren't that good.
one main reason I don't play my blaster as much as my defender is because she already HAS debt and leveling up is slow anyway because CoH seems to have a steep leveling curve which you really begin to feel in the 30s (since now you're getting shiny new powers only once every three levels.) Enhancements are nice and useful, but I look forward to powers more.
You might not be alone in your thinking, but honestly I think the majority of people will think this is a great change. My guess is either you're quite laid back 
or you are an exceptional player who hasn't died enough for it to become a frustraiting grind, or you are much more of a "power gamer" than the general population of the game. *shrug* but I'm just guessing
To States: This rules for me and my play style as well as for my friends who are more casual gamers or even the hardcore ones with little time to spend playing CoH. I like door missions over street cleaning and with the mission slider a full team of 8 on invincible is a thing of beauty when it goes well. But that is also where the most risk is. This is great for encouraging the not so kamakaze to take on more risks for higher rewards because the possible negative consequence is a bit less worse than before. It also encourages more casual players to play longer in the beginning and get really hooked on the game
Kudos to the design team
I like this - as a mostly missioning hero - this will be nice. Especially at the low levels where death in a mission can come very easy.
One thing that would really help the encouragement of people doing missions - allow us to get to them easier, contacts as well. The fact that unless you want to spend 10x longer running to a mish you have to take a travel power sucks.
I would love an INF based travel system. Doesn't matter where you are - you can call up HEROIC TRAVELS INC and then pay the cost and ding you are at one of any destinations - a contact from your list, a mission door, a zone entrance or a tram station. Be a great INF sink and would allow players to finally skip a travel power without going "OH BOY! Now I have to run 1.24 miles across IP to my contact to get a mission in Dark Astoria! I don't think so!" and instead they go street hunt.
I for one remember getting debt on purpose at levels 4-9 just to be able to get all the mission badges/souves.
this is going to make it much harder.
anyway, imo upto like level 30 debt is pretty meanigless since the levels go so fast... but I guess different players have different play styles, seems to me that if the lowbie door missions in the hollows will no longer be in the red zones players will get much less debt, oh well.
[ QUOTE ]
No matter how little debt the system assigns you, someone will always complain about it to try and get it lessened.
[/ QUOTE ]
One poster on another forum I read described XP debt in City of Heroes as the cruelest of all MMORPG death penalties. He was wrong of course (you're not losing anything - enhancements, levels, whatever), but the perception is clearly there for some.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Just get killed "outdoors". That's what I do anyway. "Oh look, a +5 mob near my mission contact. That's handy!" *splat* "Ahh, much better!"
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
I for one remember getting debt on purpose at levels 4-9 just to be able to get all the mission badges/souves.
this is going to make it much harder.
anyway, imo upto like level 30 debt is pretty meanigless since the levels go so fast... but I guess different players have different play styles, seems to me that if the lowbie door missions in the hollows will no longer be in the red zones players will get much less debt, oh well.
[/ QUOTE ]
You never need to get debt to keep contacts. Just don't train to level 10 (or 21, 26, etc) The contacts are based on your security level.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Nice changes! This will really help altaholics, the debt you get before you develop a feel for your new toon can always make you want to play less.
Now that I know they're comming, I'm gonna get an alt to level 5. I'll max my debt, then retire him. Heh, new players would be amazed.
"Hey guys, check this out!"
"What?"
"My toon has max debt"
"Whoa, freaky.... he's only level 5. Was it a bug?!"
Why not make it so you get hlf debt anywhere if rezzed by a healer like other games?
Half the time with my empath I can't rez before people start popping awakens because it makes no difference.
[ QUOTE ]
But why would you need to bait people to play missions, their the best part of the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
IIRC, one of the essential design observations for MMOs is that players will do whatever they get rewarded to do, whether it's fun or not. (No, it's not entirely rational, but it's true.) The point is to make the fun things the most rewarding things, because then people will spend more time on them and come away with a better impression of your game overall.
[ QUOTE ]
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh jeez, ok, yeah, this balances EVERYTHING. People aren't getting to 50 slow enough and enjoying our content? People are getting to 50 too fast and getting bored and leaving?
Rationalize all you like. This action is complete #$&*.
Woot! That crtainly maes this mission-crazed controller a happy Controller.
Cynics of the world, unite!
Taking Care of the Multiverse
Sheesh. I'm so gun shy from states that when I saw this post topic, I figured they were going to slow xp gain, meaning that instead of six months to your first 50, they were going to make it 10-12 months.
And then we get a welcome change.
For those of you who have not yet caught on to why this change: it rewards everyone who actually plays the first ten levels instead of PL'ing through them. It's a benefit thrown to everyone who play's 1-10 with no benefit at all to people who don't. Which means it doesn't affect PLers at all, but at least there's slightly less motivation to do so.
As for the mission debt being halved: it's a slight encouragement to run missions instead of street sweeping.
Finally some changes I understand. Finally some changes that aren't designed to hurt people.
[ QUOTE ]
You never need to get debt to keep contacts. Just don't train to level 10 (or 21, 26, etc) The contacts are based on your security level.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wish that were true. I tried it, once, and it didn't work. 
Outleveled my War Wall Defender badge contact. Apparently, it is based on combat level, not trained level. So, back to the debt sprees for me.
Links to my Virtueverse crap
I was under the impression that almost noone intentionally picks hunting missions...i'm not so happy about the debt being halved for missions unless that's for heroes under lvl 10 only. Debt served as the only method in reigning in loose cannons on pickup teams.
the first change i guess is the devs way of saying, "yeah, no travel powers suck". I guess there will be a greater need for emp healers on teams when this becomes live.
[ QUOTE ]
Rationalize all you like.
[/ QUOTE ]
You first. I haven't a clue what the heck you were trying to say.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No matter how little debt the system assigns you, someone will always complain about it to try and get it lessened.
[/ QUOTE ]
One poster on another forum I read described XP debt in City of Heroes as the cruelest of all MMORPG death penalties. He was wrong of course (you're not losing anything - enhancements, levels, whatever), but the perception is clearly there for some.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are losing time though. I'd argue thats the most important resource you have to lose - actual real world time to commit to playing the game.
that IS a fact. In some MMOs you lose stuff (and yes, that is some invested time "gone") but it has been my experience that it takes about five seconds to repair my gear (more if I'm in say, Laggrimar or Lagforge) but my XP gain is not hindered. for the moment my xp/time gain might slow down a bit because I need to visit a shop, but I'm doing that for enhancements here too. overall my gain is not hindered. For the duration of debt you are getting half as much progression to the next level. For the people taking months to get their travel power that's really no fun. This change is something that really won't hinder or affect experienced players (most posters here), but it will be a nice change for the many people who aren't as game savvy, and I think that's the main point behind this change
I am a dev fan born ANEW! *Much danceing and praising* Seriously though.. Statesman has been churning it out! I think I have a little hope again.
*urp* Now if you excuse me. I have to make sure the chicken soup I just had doesn't come back for revenge.
All of this 'Outleveling Missions' will be solved by Issue 6 with Flashback. Unfortunately, thats AT LEAST 6 months down the road
This space is intentionally left blank.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh jeez, ok, yeah, this balances EVERYTHING. People aren't getting to 50 slow enough and enjoying our content? People are getting to 50 too fast and getting bored and leaving?
Rationalize all you like. This action is complete #$&*.
[/ QUOTE ]
You realize this has absolutely nothing constructive in it whatsoever? If you believe the changes to make the experience of playing the game worse, please elaborate on that.
I, for one, think these changes will make playing missions much more enjoyable, and make it more likely for me to team randomly with a group. With half the debt, its much less frustrating to die.
The level 50 content deficiency is of note. This will speed some people to 50, and it will not solve to problem of limited level 50 content. I hope that further level 50 content will be provided at the same time to help alleviate the boredom suffered by the people who make it there sooner.
I would also suggest that The Hive as a zone deliver 1/2 debt. This will make it much more likely for 45-49's to participate in Hamidon Raids.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh jeez, ok, yeah, this balances EVERYTHING. People aren't getting to 50 slow enough and enjoying our content? People are getting to 50 too fast and getting bored and leaving?
Rationalize all you like. This action is complete #$&*.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi.
What they said will do is lessen the penalty for being defeated in a mission. This actually increases the levelling speed, because you'll have less debt to work off when you die in a mission.
Ok, bye.
Oh wait, one more thing. This should help you out.
I'm not against the change, never too little debt I say but I'm not sure why it's needed.
To me the debt system in CoH does exactly what something like this should do - it makes death non-trivial and so I don't foolishly rush into a fight, and sometimes even run to stay alive, but it doesn't make death too "painful" and so if I feel that my death can somehow help the team then I die gladly.
Besides, after 40, debt becomes nothing but a nuisance anyway.
If this is done to appease those that complain about debt then it's of no use, people will always complain about it as long as it exists in any shape or form - it's just our nature.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You never need to get debt to keep contacts. Just don't train to level 10 (or 21, 26, etc) The contacts are based on your security level.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wish that were true. I tried it, once, and it didn't work. Outleveled my War Wall Defender badge contact. Apparently, it is based on combat level, not trained level. So, back to the debt sprees for me.
[/ QUOTE ]
You must have trained too far then. Because you outlevel no contacts if you keep your security level low enough. In fact, your contacts will start giving you other contacts of their level range to move you along.
My peacebringers did just about every contact in King's Row and Atlas for instance. I was still getting "Kill 10 Hellion" missions at combat level 12.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
That's interesting.
Of course, most of my fecent deaths have been due to getting area-restricted hunt missions. There's no way we could benefit from the debt cut if we die fighting villains our missions are set to, I assume?
(That is, if my active mission is "hunt 15 CoT", and I die from CoT, could I only take debt at the mission rate?)
I agree with your the to prioritize mission maps and make deaths theret less painful , particularly for grouping purposes. It's just that I still have no choice about whether or not I get stuck with one of those gosh darned hunt missions.
[ QUOTE ]
You are losing time though. I'd argue thats the most important resource you have to lose - actual real world time to commit to playing the game.
that IS a fact. In some MMOs you lose stuff (and yes, that is some invested time "gone") but it has been my experience that it takes about five seconds to repair my gear (more if I'm in say, Laggrimar or Lagforge) but my XP gain is not hindered.
[/ QUOTE ]
You must not have played UO pre-trammel. In UO it used to be you died, ran to a healer, and tried to get back to your corpse wearing nothing but a loincloth before everything decayed. People never went out with the best stuff in the game because the chance was too high that you'd lose it (to other players if not to monsters). So yeah, they used equipment that could be replaced relatively quickly... assuming you had the cash and could find a player vendor that was properly stocked.
But they'd also still use good magic items, because you had to to beat the high end monsters. And if you lost one of those, well you'd be out a good chunk of money or looking for a long time to find another.
Imagine this: You have a level 50 COH char. Instead of powers like we have them now, the powers are items and you can lose them. You never use your 9th primary power because it's too flashy and everyone wants to take it from you, so you leave that at home. When going to places you know not many players are going to be you take your 8th primary with you. But you die and lose it and need to spend 6 months getting it again.
XP debt is nothing.
Interesting changes. I don't see much of a need for the first change, but I'm not objecting to it.
The second change I love. I adore doing missions and find street sweeping boring. Nice to know I'll be better rewarded in mish maps (I grew up in this game playing a blaster, I'm used to deaths).