Chrondeath

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Here's the trivial example that demonstrates the point. Imagine a game with nothing but super reflexes scrappers and regeneration scrappers, and all SR scrappers had high order tohit buffs in their toggles, and all regeneration scrappers had -regen debuffs in their attacks. In this circumstance, even if the devs messed up and made one of them much stronger than the other on paper, there would be an additional safeguard to making too many of one of them. If SR was ten times stronger than regen on paper, and everyone started making them, eventually there would be a strong disincentive to making them: everyone would have high order tohit buffs, and that would encourage you to roll a regeneration scrapper instead, even if they might be less effective in the abstract case: they would do much better than an SR scrapper against all the SR scrappers.

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Why would the regen scrapper in this case do better against the SR scrappers than another SR scrapper? Isn't there also a form of positive feedback here, in that, if you want to be able to hit all those SR scrappers running around, you have to roll one yourself?

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(Yes, that's only counting level 50s. Anyone below 50 doesn't exist as far as the market is concerned.)

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The problem with your theory is that neither I nor anyone else is going to do that. We won't even pay 1 million. If the last 10 went for 100K then that's the ballpark we're going to play in, because we don't HAVE to go higher. We all know the market punishes sellers for trying to get high prices so there's no reason for us to pay high prices.

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Okay, these two comments don't seem to work well together. If the last 10 being 100k causes all the 50s to play at 100k, then how are they cutting out anyone below 50?

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Low levels are transitory. Only the endgame matters.

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Bull<bleep>. How much time have you logged playing characters at level 50 as compared to the time you've logged playing characters below 50? Just breaking even on the time spent to level up a single 50 would put my balance towards the below-50 play. I could be an outlier, but with all the talk I see about alt-itis, I doubt that's the case.

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In a way.....yes. The less you know numbers wise, the more you are likely to just pick powers that go for flavor, which is what this game was attemping to appeal to. I know personal friends that hate getting lots of numbers thrown at them, as they feel it is sometimes just a major distraction from fun at times. Whether they pulled it off or not is up to you to decide.

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But ultimately, the game has to be balanced around the numbers. The haves and have-nots of number knowledge are going to be fighting the same enemies, so you either have to accept that the number-crunchers aren't going to get a challenge, or balance the PVE aspect around having a reasonably optimal build.....or provide enough information directly to put both groups on an even footing.

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To buy into Numina, as a practical matter the only option is Health in the fitness pool, unless you plan on spamming aid self on yourself constantly and not attack anything.

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Hmm....do bonuses from click powers normally stack with themselves if you get the click power better-than-perma? I thought they did, but I could be wrong.

Is this five-minute duration standard for all the weird-effect-IOs in click powers, or something specific to the pet auras?

It would be kind of cool if, like a bizarre version of Fury, normal play with weird-effect-IO-slotted click powers resulted in a snowballing of duration effects...

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- Blaster Fire Blast Powerset: Bonus damage increased by 50% for all appropriate powers.

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Well, that explains what I was seeing with Flares.

I have to admit that I'm still a bit confused about what prompted this change. Fire/ wasn't underperforming; Flares is about the only thing I've seen considered as needing a fix (with any sort of consensus, anyway), and it doesn't really get much help from this. It's nice that all my blasts will be doing a few more points, but is there something I was missing that this is intended to address?

Other changes:

Blaze (and, I hear, the other 20' attacks) are now 40'.

The Flares animation has not changed. Flares damage at level 1 against a Contaminated went from 7.13/2.0 on Live to 7.13/3.01 on Test. Not sure what all this means for higher levels (although I'm thinking "still not worth taking Flares" is probably in there.)

I voted storyline, but I have to agree: Where was "PvE gameplay"?

The story is what drives me to keep doing missions, but the core gameplay is the reason I'm still playing. I've tried a lot of other MMOs, but none of them offer a combat experience like COH.

I even kind of like PVP combat (the gameplay, not so much the interaction with other people) and gladiator combat.

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I keep seeing posts like this, and I guess a lot of people are still just uninformed. I have a personal SG base, just my nine alts on Virtue are members, and I've been working on it for several months. Great fun, actually.

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I've given this a try, but there are a few reasons that it never really clicked with me.

I don't really have a primary server. My main is on Liberty, but I've got half a dozen other servers filled with alts and they're all spread pretty equally across heroes and villains. Per side, per server, there's probably only one or two characters I play, and if I stick to playing on a single server for more than a month it's because I got an alt over 25--and Liberty's the only server on which I could afford to start twinking.

I also can't add my alts to my own SG myself; none of my RL friends play any more, and I'm uncomfortable (a) trusting and (b) imposing on someone else to help me add alts to the SG.

Last time I tried it, the starting prestige alone seemed to be enough to decorate the initial room, but there were a lot of decorations I wanted that were too large to fit and it seemed like enlarging the space was going to be out of my price range. I haven't tried it for a while, though.

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I use the base 8 x 8 plot and currently have in my nine decorated rooms:

3 salvage storage
1 mid-lvl tech empowerment station
1 basic arcane empowerment station
2 inspiration storage
1 enhancement storage (I put HOs in it mostly)
1 telepad with two beacons (I switch them out as needed)

Total cost so far for my base: about 1 million prestige. That is not prohibitive for a single individual who plays his alts regularly, it just takes a few months of saving up (and that prestige gift of 20k per member during the double xp weekend helped a lot).

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Not prohibitive for a single individual who plays his alts on one server regularly.

I have to admit that I'm impressed by that base; if there were a way for me to add my alts without having to involve anyone else, I might be encouraged to make an attempt to keep future alts to one server and give this a try. How is your base set for decorative items / aesthetics?

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In reverse: the cost for bases is, for some, extraordinarily high. Its extraordinarily high not for any numerical reason, but for a more subjective one: earning prestige - at high enough levels - steals influence. The cost of earning prestige isn't a numerical one, its a critical playstyle one: try to earn prestige, and you can find yourself unable to buy that enhancement you need. That cost crosses a critical threshold where the cost impacts normal play. Once it does that, there's no amount of carrots you can dangle that will make people not resent the cost. They may *incur* the cost, but they will always resent it.

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To follow up on this: I'm not sure if this is what you had in mind, but I wanted to bring up that for some players (myself included), having to join an SG is a huge cost in itself.

I can see from the thread size that dozens of people have already responded to this, but I want to give my viewpoint while it's fresh in my head.

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As just a resource for expressing something unique, base creation is on par tech wise with costume creation. Admittedly, there's not quite the same amount of textures, colors, etc., but there's still a lot of versatility. And the layout possibilities are endless.

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Everyone else can see your costume. Not many other people can see your base, in relation to the number of people who can see your costume.

If other people aren't seeing it, I might as well mod levels for a single-player game, where I can access all the pieces without an ongoing investment.

It's an odd connection, but this is bringing to mind some of the points from the solo vs. multiplayer debates. I don't always want to actively be playing with people, but I want to be able to show off my accomplishments and admire the accomplishments of others. Costumes are something I can show off, while bases really aren't.

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But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ.

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Huh? Maybe I'm alone, but most of my interactions with the costume creator are when I'm creating new characters, and that doesn't have a cost.

Even limiting the comparison to Icon, given both the offical influence-to-prestige conversion rate AND the practical influence-to-prestige ratio (the influence you're giving up for the prestige you're gaining by running in SG mode), combined with the fact that you can't effectively supplement your prestige-gaining through sale of enhancements or twinking from higher-level characters, is it any wonder that the cost of base building is felt much more keenly than the cost of costume changes?

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Let's turn to the idea of an architect. We foresaw that some people would feel alienated if they weren't the architect. That's why some things (Personal Items) can be "crafted" by individuals and placed in the base. But even if there's an architect: many super groups have a member who designed a single costume which all then use. In other words, they're more than willing to accept someone else's opinion in the group identity for their avatar appearance. Again, the primary difference is cost (I think).

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I suppose I can see how one might take this to....counter some of the obvious objections people have posed to the architect position. I don't think it's the same thing, though.

First, while I have seen these themed supergroups, I can count on one hand the number I've even heard about, let alone actually seen in-game.

Second, in the cases I have seen, the theme takes the form of some required costume pieces or patterns, but there is still room left for individuality. I have to admit here that I have no idea what Personal Items are or how they work, but I can't imagine that they leave much room for individuality or they would interfere with a base architect's layout.

Third, making a character to fit in with a themed SG only takes up one character slot; playing that character does not cause your other characters to decay, and playing other characters doesn't adversely impact the themed character.

Prestige generation doesn't work like that. It feels like I'm stealing from the SG any time I play a character who's not in the SG (a hero instead of a villain, or a character on another server, or just any other character if I want some alone-time from the SG). I can't try to work on a solo SG with one character while contributing to a themed SG on another character.

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Bingo. Jack's comments are an example of a common syndrome I see among software developers (myself included); they confuse a lukewarm reception of a poor implementation with rejection of the underlying concept. The *concept* of customizable lairs is totally cool, but the implementation thus far has been flawed.

I have many alts and they all belong to SGs, but none of them are SG leaders, so my total experience with the base building tools is roughly zero. How can Jack expect the entire player population to be excited about the base building tools when only 5% (my guess) of the population ever gets to use them?

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I don't see the confusion here....isn't this exactly what he said? People don't like it because it doesn't allow them to express their individuality; only those top five percent get to actually build the base while everyone else just contributes prestige.

It doesn't sound to me like he's saying "Well, I guess they just hate bases, go figure"....he's got at least some inkling of WHY people don't like bases, or one of the reasons, at least, and that's a good start towards getting them fixed. I don't see anything indicating that he thinks the players are rejecting the underlying concept of bases.

Holy cow, I never knew CJ or other powers could cancel out that godawful Flight inertia. Now if only there was some way to keep it on my Warshade through Nova permanently short of dual-boxing a Kinetics Defender....

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Here's the writeup of his speech.

The only thing that jumps out at me - he claims bases are unpopular because people don't like paying money to contribute to group identity. I don't think that's correct. I think they're unpopular because
1) they're too expensive for casual players, and
2) they don't have anything to do with our day-to-day activities in CoH/V.

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While those are certainly issues, I'm not sure I would dismiss Statesman's comment that quickly.

I can only speak for myself, but I would be all over bases if they were something I could build on my own, per character, not with a supergroup. Part of that is because I just don't like getting tied to a group (for various reasons), but some of it is that I want to make my base, my way. Think about what percentage of people get to really use the base building tool, for example: not just "decorate a bit with the starting prestige," but really plan it out, put together the non-decorative facilities, show off a theme, etc.....I may be contributing prestige, but only the person doing the actual building is really expressing themselves.

Now, personally, I don't think that this is nearly as large an impediment to my enjoyment of bases as the fact that I really don't want to have anything to do with a supergroup, but I could see an argument that one position is just an aspect of the other.

Quoting three different people here....apparently quote attributions don't work anymore (or am I thinking of another board?)

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I think the problem is that most players don't have much to do with designing the bases. Supergroup leaders or officers do the designing and get to see all the options. It is possible for people to go onto the test server and make their own base, but do many do that?

Maybe you should re-think allowing players to have personal lairs. That would get all your hard work into a lot more hands.

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Quoted for truth. A one-player SG just doesn't work out....I still need to find someone I can trust to give leadership before my alts can join, and I'm going to have nearly no income because I'll be the only one playing. I've also got both hero and villain alts I enjoy on pretty much every server I play on, so that's another limitation.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with the comments that there isn't enough functionality to bases. Teleporters, a medical bay, empowerment stations, a computer giving out exclusive missions....that's all functionality I'd love to have. It may not be enough functionality to justify the cost of supergroup bases, but for solo bases it would equal or exceed the functionality you can get out of individual player housing (in my experience) in other games.

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I personally want the Fall from Grace/Redemption feature more than any other feature.

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Also quoted for truth. I still haven't gone through a lot of the COV missions because I just can't find a villain build that I enjoy enough to stick with it once I'm past the easy ride through the first levels. At this rate I'm likely not to see any of the high-level COV content. Being able to bring over a hero at a low level would let me go through the COV content with something that I know I would still enjoy at higher levels. Hero/Villain conversion would single-handedly give me, at least, more content than any other feature.

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I like the new mantra you have. Here is what I want. I want my characters to be able to fight elaborate powered arch-nemisis bosses without having to have a full team to defeat them. I want missions where if I look at the map I can't tell where the boss will be. I want more than one entrance to the different levels in a mission (more than one set of elevators, a set of stairs , etc) to add realism to the maps. I really loved the idea of building an arch nemesis through doing missions and figuring out clues to what your foe will have and each time could make a totally different end fight. Please, if you do this , don't make it so we have to have a full team to fight this foe. I think an arch nemesis should be more personal . Actually, I think teams are cool but I think there should be alot more things do on a personal level. Secret Identities, Vehicles, and Subplots. (Statesman once said he knew about Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG. I think the subplot ideas in that game would be really cool ways to add something into this game that isn't neccessarily combat related.)

I'd like to see a more destructible environment and give heroes the dilemma of having to avoid hitting civillians to get at the bad guy.

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And, agreed with pretty much everything mentioned here. (Apparently I'm in an agreeable mood today.) The idea of collateral damage worries me a bit because I'm a Fire blaster at heart, but it would still be interesting.

I think everyone else has already made the points I wanted to make, but since we have that comment about "giving the players what they want", I wanted to add my voice to the tally.

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The Ranks are equivalent to Archetypes for players -- each one has it's own unique stats.

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So, which AT gets to be Underlings?

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Wouldn't work. You were never born, so you never wrote the note or built the time machine.

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Ah, but the guy who found/finds the note (presuming that he's in a helpful mood) DID (and will) write a note and build a time machine.

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No. Because if you didn't go back in time then the vase was still stolen. If you went back and stole it would change nothing as your timeline would be the exact same.

In this theory if you went back and tried to kill your grandfather then reality would stop you. Or it wouldn't and the whole time line would collaspe.

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You know, I always wondered if you could force a time loop by going back, leaving the plans for your time machine and instructions saying

"If you don't want the universe to explode, build the time machine in these plans, go back to this point, kill <insert your grandfather's name here>, and leave a copy of these instructions in the same place and time where you found them."

then killing your grandfather. Your grandfather dies, you cease to exist, somebody helpful comes along and follows your instructions, younger version of the helpful guy comes along and reads the instructions HE left--bam, it's not altering the past anymore, the new guy is just following a time loop that (as far as anyone could tell) always existed.

(You could leave the machine itself, but that runs into some problems when you realize the machine has to survive an infinite amount of trips...)

Yeah...I was all set to post a rant on the Alderac forums asking why Fire Blast (the power, not the set) was hosed (compared to every other four-damage no-requirement ranged attack) when fire resistance didn't seem to be noticeably less common than energy, negative, or cold resistance, but I decided to wait until I could try out a generic Fire/Ice blaster deck (since they don't have energy manipulation, my main's powerset yet).

Finally managed to pull the two signature heroes who were camping on my Fire Breath and Blaze and got to play it last Friday. Fire Blast (the power) sucked as much as I thought it would, but dang....I think I had my opponent down to five or less health within six turns in every game. Fire Breath or Blaze (or both) showed up in my opening hand every game (Fire Breath and Blaze both require you to have two Fire Blast powers in play, meaning that a generic hero can play them on the first turn, but a signature hero can't)....a good draw like that can make things crazy fast.

My opponent was playing a Defender, though, so it might be different against a tanker or scrapper with defense, or a controller with opening stuns...but I'm happy with generic hero performance so far, at least.

Combining responses to a couple of different posts.
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The card game's chief difficulties is that it moves too slowly.

There's a lot of turns where nothing happens.
...
Back to the slow moving, with the frequent discards than are long stretches of game where both players are doing nothing but resting. My brothers and I are considering a house rule that every round requires you to draw one card, rest would turn that to 3 cards.

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Why are your "do-nothing" turns taking a long time? If both players need to draw up, the game should go "Draw-draw-draw-draw-back to the action."

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In addition, the mechanics (not the rules) are a bit overly complex.

Look at magic:

The chief mechanic is:

Tap to Use or Always in play.

Lands: tap to use
Creatures: tap to use
Artifacts: tap to use
Enchantments: the exception, either always active, or you tap other things to use...notice, however, the mechanic is still: tap to use

Now, CoH:

Toggles: Tap all the way around and leave it tapped until it is turned off. And you can only have two active at a time.

Clicks: Tap 45 degrees for 1 click, 90 degrees for 2 clicks, 135 degrees for 3 clicks.

Constants: Always active

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Eh....I guess if "potential card positions" are your criteria for complexity, you could say that CoH is more complex than Magic. Timing is usually the real rules kicker in CCGs, though, and while both games have thorny timing situations with certain cards, COH's alternating action structure is a lot simpler than Magic's The Stack. (I like the Stack, don't get me wrong, but you can't say alternating actions is more complex.)

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In addition, the edges are confusing. Can they be used at any time, or do they count as an action?

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I'm going to take a guess that you've never played a CCG made by AEG before. I can see how the React timing could be difficult to get at first if you haven't been exposed to it...

Anyway, Edges (or inspirations, or power effects) that say "Action" on them take up an action. Ones that say "React" on them do not take up an action, and can only be played when their trigger takes place (all reacts should specify when they can be played).

Multiple reacts with the same trigger (which has been unusual in other AEG CCGs, but is common in CoH with defense and accuracy edges and inspirations having a trigger of "when targetted by an attack") are resolved by going around the table and allowing each player to play a React or pass. If any player plays a React, all players get another opportunity to react to the original trigger; if all players pass consecutively, the timing for Reacts to that trigger closes and the game moves on. The "keep going until everybody passes" thing isn't that much different from Magic, and the alternating reacts mirrors the way regular Actions alternate.

Inspirations do not all have the same timing. Catch-a-Breaths and Respites are Actions; Insight and Luck are Reacts played when an attack is targetted; Break Free is a React played before you take an Action; and Enrage is a React played before targetting an attack (meaning that you have to play all your Enrages before you start battling over accuracy and defense). These timings are all listed on the rules sheet under Inspirations.

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My general opinion of the game is: Meh.

AEG has made some awesome games in the past, but this one is simply a 'meh.'
There are two cards (one power: Air Superiority and one Edge: Knock out of the Sky) that remove the Flight ability, and only one card (Edge: Out of the Sun) that makes positive use of flight. Flight is completely useless for anyone other than a melee archtype (the edge card increases Melee damage).

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Apparently, the travel powers used to have some innate ability (back when the game was being playtested) and Flight was overpowered; hence all the anti-Flight cards and the lackluster Flight-specific edge. The innate abilities were removed, but the weak Flight support wasn't revamped. My main is a flier, so this kind of annoys me, too.

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Mez effects are 100% (unless you have mez protection, which is also 100%). Heartbreaker's deck is so one-sided it's not terribly useful to play.

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Break Free is tied with Insight for the most popular inspiration on cards. Stun rounds in our games are usually spent recharging and resting until you're built up enough to have something you want to use a Break Free on.

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It's been my experience that whoever gets the first turn wins the game (unless I'm playing HB, then she wins).

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Haven't encountered this problem, really. The first player has an advantage, but it's not insurmountable. There are a lot of cards that can produce greater than a one-action swing.

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Also, with ties going to the attacker, it makes defending dang near impossible, since there are nearly 5x as many cards that increase accuracy as there are that provide any defense (including Luck insp discards).
With constructed decks you can only have 3 of any card. So, for a non-FF controller/Defender you can only have a pitiful number of defense-increasing cards (3x Bob & Weave and 3x of either the Jump Dodge or Defensive Teleport for 6 cards if your using the relevant movement type). Only the FF powerset has "Luck" inspirations meaning that you aren't going to have many of them.

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Ice Armor, Ice Manipulation, and Ice Control also have Lucks.

The game would be much slower if a successful attack always required you to spend a ton of cards on accuracy, especially if accuracy was hard to come by. As long as everyone is in the same boat with regards to accuracy and defense, I don't see why there is any problem. Why would the game be better if you only hit half the time or less?

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The reply from AEG was that they didn't want the game to bog down into a defensive morass. They had no idea. I spend most games completely stunned (much like the real COH) because of the vast number of status effects that can be stacked on non-scrapper/non-tankers due to the utter LACK of defensive cards.

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Where are your Break Frees? Why aren't you spending your stunned turns drawing (to get to Break Frees or defensive cards)?

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Defensive Teleport is great, it pretty much tells someone they're not hitting you.

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No...Active Dodge in the late-game for +11 defense tells someone they're not hitting you.

I've been playing it as often as I can, and I've been pretty active over on the AEG COH boards. I think it's a great game; the alternation of actions and the variety of things you can do with an action reminds me a lot of Netrunner (one of the best CCGs of all time).

There have been more rules issues that you would expect from the simple rules provided, and the limited space on the rules sheet seems to have led to a few things being unclear (exactly when you're allowed to turn off toggles, for example).

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Why? Because it will spend too much time on the tie-in portion of things, (the characters, the powers, making sure a player of the MMORPG recognizes things, etc), to really bring anything unique to the table. Not that it has to be unique, mind, but there have been several CCGs featuring super heroes and the idea just never takes off.

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I'll admit that the tie-in part worries me a bit. Decipher's Star Wars CCG is perhaps the longest-running tie-in CCG I can think of (although CoH can't really match the Star Wars brand). I'm hoping that the game will survive on the strength of the gameplay.

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I think this is partly because of the limitations of the genre - both the CCG genre, (can I say that?), and the super hero genre. What am I, the player of this new CCG, doing? Am I arranging teams of heroes for a massive battle royale? Am I pitting a special squad against a horde of enemies? Will this boil down to a fight of clones, (where each player has the same heroes), or am I very limited in what I can choose to play with?

You cannot be the hero with the sort of CCG I think we shall find - you can only manipulate other heroes. The CCG's that really seem to catch on involve the player in the game, (like Magic, where the player is fighting another player, not using cards to fight other cards, if you see my meaning).

Obviously I have not seen the game.

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Well....yes, it is obvious you haven't seen the game, because you don't control a team of heroes. You control one hero, and optionally one sidekick.

This is one of the major points I see in the game's favor. Highlander is the only other CCG I can think of (hey, there's a tie-in game that's really old, and I think it's even still being produced!) in which you play a single character that you can strongly identify with. Both COH and Highlander also allow you to play a generic character, an option which I really like and which I hope is expanded on in the COH CCG as it was in Highlander (it's just not as much fun playing someone else's creation, even if it is a signature hero.)

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AND now...we're changing the way Archvillains spawn. A ton of forum goers disliked adding so many AV's into missions a while back...so we've come up with a solution. If the team size and mission difficulty are ABOVE a certain level, an Archvillain spawns. Below that, players will face only an Elite Boss. If the mission is set on the first two levels of difficulty, it takes 4 heroes or more to spawn an Arch Villain. On the third level, 3 heroes or more. On the fourth level, 2 heroes. On the highest (Invincible), a solo hero will spawn an AV. Note this works in BOTH City of Heroes and Villains.

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Woohoo!

The reduction in non-soloable missions is more than enough for celebration, but I also find that I'm drooling over the opportunity to face the signature heroes and villains on reasonably even terms...

I'm going to have to recreate my main so I can catch all the AVs I finished earlier....hmm....and if the hero-villain swapping goes in, I could create two versions and go through both sides....

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In order to incentivize larger teams, Positron is going to add a bonus to AV rewards!

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Eeeeenteresting....

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Certainly there is no shortage of female magi in other groups.

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Tsoo? Banished Pantheon? Hellions? The Cabal is the only magic-oriented group I can think of with female members, unless you count the Carnival (and I thought they mostly just had psychically-granted power....)

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Long long ago, in a post far away, one of the devs mentioned the way -Resistance worked. Now, What I've heard that post mentioned was that -Res wasnt actual -Res but a damage multiplier. Is this correct, or is this one of the fallacies just randomly flying around?

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Resist Debuffs are resisted by Damage Resistance.

If your 100 damage attack hits someone with no resists, it does 100 damage.
If that person had a 25% Resist Debuff, damage taken would be 125.

A 100 damage attack vs someone with 50% resists would take 50 damage.
If that person had a 25% Resist Debuff on them, damage taken would be 62.5.

EDIT: The above assumes the Resist Debuff is resistable. Defenders debuffs are not resistable in PvP.

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So...outside Defenders in the arena, is there any difference between a -RES debuff and a straight damage multiplier? Looks to me like this formula comes out the same as a straight multiplier to damage taken....