This post does not sound rude, it is plain stupid. I am not a true hard gamer and I enjoy playing, if you enjoy dying and slow levelling, that's your problem but it's certainly not a rule for everyone. Your "first real death with debt" theory is just un-intelligent : now your first real death will have more sense, since you'll have to wait so much longer to experience it (2 or 3 hours?).
And wait 5 "grueling" levels until that first debt : are you trying to insult people who enjoy gaming? It means that players who have played so efficiently that they didn't die until level 10 are in fact bad players because they didn't die as often as you and your pals? I sincerely hope for you this post was just a proof os your bad humor and not serious one second, or you just confounded "hero" with "heroin" and your judgment was clouded in some way.
You think that this community is not "made up of real men and women"? Now you are really insulting our intelligence! First you judge people you don't even know, then you should inquire about the word "masochism", as you most certainly suffer from it : if you like losing your time so much and your entire life is video gaming I pity you soooo much and am proud to have nothing in common with you.
Let Statesman do his job trying to balance the game and make it more enjoyable for the "normal" players.
I hope I won't become as angry against life as you are and you'll learn what the word "respect" means.
I hope other people will react to this shocking behavior.
Freedom :
Fission Lass 50 Illusion/radiation controller
Gaea's Wrath 50 Earth/Empathy controller
Khalan the confessor 26 psy/mental blaster
Dusk Tempest 50 Dark / electricity defender
Aish the geomancer 36 Plant/thermal controller
Hmmm. I wonder if the Devs see lots of sub 10 deaths in the future?
Remember BEtA event?
[ QUOTE ]
Statesman I have tried to side with you on every change you have made. I understand that you are a visonary that has the best intentions at heart. I watched you build my invunerability/super strength tanker from poor to uber and I loved it. I have also seen names of people dear to me changed, some very very unsubstantial, but I have understood. But here is a change I can not side with you on, this change I feel is going too far.
You are NERFING debt.
And I will not take this and be quiet.
Debt is one of the many reasons I play this game. Debt is the major draw/focus of my supergroup, of the J-Force. If someones debt is not in the 7 figures they aren't J-Force.
I go OUT OF MY WAY to reach the debt cap every level. I have leveled in debt 7 levels in a row (since 33) I am the J-Man and my mass amounts of debt are one of my defining features.
First you take away debt until level 10. I'm saddened by this because nothing is more exciting then your first real death with debt. And now myself, my J-Force and the CoH community have to wait 5 more grueling levels until that first debt. But on this I understand, this is a kind of force/incentive to play beyond level 5 (something I rarely do besides my main).
The second one is really really tough for me. See the majority of my game play is with a large team on invincible missions. The J-Force and I get together NIGHTLY to go on what we coined Debt Runs(TM) and we dont' just keep it to ourselves we welcome any hero who wants to see what real fun is. With only receiving half debt you are effectivly forcing us to work three times as hard to do what we are now, hit debt cap.
I REFUSE to be forced to street hunt.
But after reading each and every post on this thread I see that this comunity is not made up of real men and woman. That its mostly sissy, wimps, wusses, chumps, wankers, girlie men, and even more girlie woman who can't seem to take their debt like the hardcore heros they are. Yes this is griefing of the entire community, because the many are making the life of the few so much more difficult.
Statesman, please, I beg you do not take my debt from me.
But if you do, I have one small request. Please Statesman, remove the debt cap. This way while it may take me longer (much longer) to accure massive amounts of debt I will never ever have to reach a point to where my deaths are worthless, every death will raise not only my purple bar, but my enjoyment of the game.
It has been my dream to out debt a level 50 before I reach it. Never ending debt *swoon*
I appologize if this post sounds rude, I don't want to be rude. I am just very upset at the prospect of losing the ease of my debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dude. Seriously.
You're playing the game backwards, and you want them not to make changes for you?
AND you have the nerve to get all uppity over on the Tank boards when it's your explicit goal to DIE A LOT?
For serious, lay off the pipe, bub. 
[ QUOTE ]
Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
Dear lordy!!! does this mean my 50 might have a chance to get outta debt?!?!?!?!?! YES!!!!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't really see how this was a problem for people. debt erased so fast in the first ten levels, it was a non issue to me and most others i talked with. xp debt being halved on missions only....[censored]? I just have one question...
WHY?
a really useless change, unneeded dev time on it, etc. I don't really see the point to any of it.
[ QUOTE ]
Statesman I have tried to side with you on every change you have made. I understand that you are a visonary that has the best intentions at heart. I watched you build my invunerability/super strength tanker from poor to uber and I loved it. I have also seen names of people dear to me changed, some very very unsubstantial, but I have understood. But here is a change I can not side with you on, this change I feel is going too far.
You are NERFING debt.
And I will not take this and be quiet.
Debt is one of the many reasons I play this game. Debt is the major draw/focus of my supergroup, of the J-Force. If someones debt is not in the 7 figures they aren't J-Force.
I go OUT OF MY WAY to reach the debt cap every level. I have leveled in debt 7 levels in a row (since 33) I am the J-Man and my mass amounts of debt are one of my defining features.
First you take away debt until level 10. I'm saddened by this because nothing is more exciting then your first real death with debt. And now myself, my J-Force and the CoH community have to wait 5 more grueling levels until that first debt. But on this I understand, this is a kind of force/incentive to play beyond level 5 (something I rarely do besides my main).
The second one is really really tough for me. See the majority of my game play is with a large team on invincible missions. The J-Force and I get together NIGHTLY to go on what we coined Debt Runs(TM) and we dont' just keep it to ourselves we welcome any hero who wants to see what real fun is. With only receiving half debt you are effectivly forcing us to work three times as hard to do what we are now, hit debt cap.
I REFUSE to be forced to street hunt.
But after reading each and every post on this thread I see that this comunity is not made up of real men and woman. That its mostly sissy, wimps, wusses, chumps, wankers, girlie men, and even more girlie woman who can't seem to take their debt like the hardcore heros they are. Yes this is griefing of the entire community, because the many are making the life of the few so much more difficult.
Statesman, please, I beg you do not take my debt from me.
But if you do, I have one small request. Please Statesman, remove the debt cap. This way while it may take me longer (much longer) to accure massive amounts of debt I will never ever have to reach a point to where my deaths are worthless, every death will raise not only my purple bar, but my enjoyment of the game.
It has been my dream to out debt a level 50 before I reach it. Never ending debt *swoon*
I appologize if this post sounds rude, I don't want to be rude. I am just very upset at the prospect of losing the ease of my debt.
Thank you for your time
JFS
-The Legendary J-Man-
[/ QUOTE ]
um, did you ever think their doing this so peeps would have a slightly quicker road to travel powersand at least help those of us who get in bad pick up groups on occasion a little help? I don't mind debt and being defeated when it happens, but sounds like your lot are best avoided anyway.......
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
hes trying to encourage missions and help low lvls.
dose this mean we will be debt free on beginning alts and recieve lost exp for characters that hads or still have debt in those lvls
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
The first one is cool, thanks! But could you elaborate a little on the second one, please? Are you saying that a character would get half the debt they get now while on a mission map, or that they earn half as much debt back while on a mission map? Thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Never attempt to balance mechanics through Role Playing."
Castle
[ QUOTE ]
Statesman I have tried to side with you on every change you have made. I understand that you are a visonary that has the best intentions at heart. I watched you build my invunerability/super strength tanker from poor to uber and I loved it. I have also seen names of people dear to me changed, some very very unsubstantial, but I have understood. But here is a change I can not side with you on, this change I feel is going too far.
You are NERFING debt.
And I will not take this and be quiet.
Debt is one of the many reasons I play this game. Debt is the major draw/focus of my supergroup, of the J-Force. If someones debt is not in the 7 figures they aren't J-Force.
I go OUT OF MY WAY to reach the debt cap every level. I have leveled in debt 7 levels in a row (since 33) I am the J-Man and my mass amounts of debt are one of my defining features.
First you take away debt until level 10. I'm saddened by this because nothing is more exciting then your first real death with debt. And now myself, my J-Force and the CoH community have to wait 5 more grueling levels until that first debt. But on this I understand, this is a kind of force/incentive to play beyond level 5 (something I rarely do besides my main).
The second one is really really tough for me. See the majority of my game play is with a large team on invincible missions. The J-Force and I get together NIGHTLY to go on what we coined Debt Runs(TM) and we dont' just keep it to ourselves we welcome any hero who wants to see what real fun is. With only receiving half debt you are effectivly forcing us to work three times as hard to do what we are now, hit debt cap.
I REFUSE to be forced to street hunt.
But after reading each and every post on this thread I see that this comunity is not made up of real men and woman. That its mostly sissy, wimps, wusses, chumps, wankers, girlie men, and even more girlie woman who can't seem to take their debt like the hardcore heros they are. Yes this is griefing of the entire community, because the many are making the life of the few so much more difficult.
Statesman, please, I beg you do not take my debt from me.
But if you do, I have one small request. Please Statesman, remove the debt cap. This way while it may take me longer (much longer) to accure massive amounts of debt I will never ever have to reach a point to where my deaths are worthless, every death will raise not only my purple bar, but my enjoyment of the game.
It has been my dream to out debt a level 50 before I reach it. Never ending debt *swoon*
I appologize if this post sounds rude, I don't want to be rude. I am just very upset at the prospect of losing the ease of my debt.
Thank you for your time
JFS
-The Legendary J-Man-
[/ QUOTE ]
J-Man, these are not good forums for sarcasm.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
He's not being sarcastic....
sorry if this has been said (14 pages are a lot to read), but...
in a few months aren't we going to get hordes of players complaining of running into high-level ambushes that now do double debt, compared to mission maps?
Not sure about the decision myself, but not against it in principal.
[ QUOTE ]
Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, States...you've outdone yourself again. I like the extension to the debt-free missions to Level 10, especially because of the early mission in the Hollows, which can sometimes cost you xp debt up the whazoo if you're not careful.
And the debt reduction for missions is a definite plus, as that removes a definite liability when having to deal with elite and AV's in certain missions.
Thanks again, States...
[ QUOTE ]
I don't quite get the debt free for 10 levels bit.. but okay, whatever.
Bizzare change...
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. 
[ QUOTE ]
Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
I like this. It will make the hollows a bit more bearable. I like the hollows, but man, sometimes its tough to go across map at lvl 6 and get wiped out by some huge mob that spawns right in front of me, hehe.
Cool stuff STATES!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
I like this. It will make the hollows a bit more bearable. I like the hollows, but man, sometimes its tough to go across map at lvl 6 and get wiped out by some huge mob that spawns right in front of me, hehe.
Cool stuff STATES!
[/ QUOTE ]
Can anyone tell me what the big outcry is about?? I think, like many reasonable players on this thread, that this is a good change. Do players really want more debt on a mission? Just change your difficulty setting to the hardest imaginable. These changes do not affect the hard-core gamer in any way! I play a blaster, and unfortunately for me, all my friends in my supergroup play on invincible setting, all at 3 levels above me. I get SK'ed but I am incredibly vulnerable playing at that level. I enjoy it and I enjoy playing with my supergroup so I accept the risk. This makes playing with my supergroup even better because now I don't have to worry as much about being in Super Perma Debt. You still have to play cautiously if you're a squishy AT. The danger and risk is not taken away. If you play stupid you pay a penalty. The only thing that has changed is that the penalty is not as harsh so you can devote your time to missions and actually enjoying the game as opposed to boring street sweeping to get out of debt.
What are the real problems with these changes??
[ QUOTE ]
And that doesn't cheapen things? That makes even less debt than what States said.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gah, you're right. My bad. Forget what I said. Leave debt the way it is.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
I think this is a good idea on the basis of the hollows. The main place people go after hitting 5 is the hollows. After a while once you get to the missions after the first two hunt ones you get missions that are extremely far away. In personal experience i have been at lvl 7 or so and had a mission there that was on the other end of the map on the mountain and its not exactly easy with no travel powers to get there so right there trying to get to that mission i get killed about two or so times.
This is the part where i plug my ears and go "lah lah lah lah lah lah lah i cant hear you lah lah lah lah" (from all the bashing afterwards)
Also it helps the newer players to get a feel for the game over a longer period of time w/o consiquences and it gives them time to find a good team to go with or a good place to hunt and not rack up a butt load of debt. Personally when i first started i didnt understand debt it confused me more than it should have (its probably just cuz im a little dense but...). I never knew debt slowed my lvling down till someone told me that my xp got split i just thought i got two times as much xp for one kill, right there i knew i was pretty dumb for thinking that..... But I think actually explaining it a little more to the newer players might help like have a second mission in Outbreak where you actually have to die and explain what happens at lvl 5 or 10 as it will change. I.e. tell them about debt in that way it will get them more acquanted with it better. just my opinion.
Yea, i have a feeling that the hollows is a big reason for the change to the debt free levels.
[ QUOTE ]
Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
Low level debt has never truly bothered me, so whatever on that one... if anything, it will mean we never get to finish allof our level 5-10 contacts unless we solo or pair off only.
I believe the intent on the second is to put us in misisons more. This won't help much, and it will help the mission farmers (who keep the same mission and run it over and over and over) more than those who run missions normally.
The issue is, and continues to be, that the XP reward for the time travelled to get to/from a mission is disproprotionately low when compared to the same amount of time spent in one place (either circling a building while street sweeping or rerunning missions prior to the completion of the final goal).
The fix? Simple in my mind.
Option 1: Lower XP awards for street sweeps, make a corresponding increase in mission XP that's worth about half of what the entire map is worth. On missions which give XP and do not require 100% defeat rate, pro-rate the mission XP with how much was taken out in the mission... If you got half the mobs, you get half the experience. If you killed NO mobs, you get nothing as a bonus. There's a few missions this wouldn't work on, but generally it makes sense.
2) Make running missions a badge, and once you've run X number of missions where you were there long enough to get the bonus, you get progress (that functionality already exists). Then... each badge along the 'missions completed' track gives you bonus XP on top of everything else you have done. This system worked very well in Anarchy Online where the two factions had 'token boards' which gave XP bonuses. The XP bonus was level restricted (which could be done here too). In order to KEEP people in missions, you can further make the xp gains only on future missions completed.
Story wise, this would mean that players completing their missions would be more respected by the city for uncovering plots which could harm the city than those simply running around pummeling the bad guys on street corners.
This got long, I apologize... Summary:
1) No debt for 5-10 may permit players to outlevel story arcs in that range.
2) Debt reduction on missions is nice, but doesn't accomplish the seeming goal. Two options to meet this goal are:
2a) increase mission completion XP to be substantially more than when compared to the XP gained from minions in the mission
2b) reward mission completers with XP gains on future mission completion in the future (a positive feedback loop)
Balance Goal
[ QUOTE ]
Let me talk about goals in balance...
Enhancements ended up being priced too cheaply (something that well change sometime soon). In order to find something fun to do (i.e. something that had an element of risk), players needed to hunt in zones; missions became boring.
Because we feel that missions are a great part of the game. If a player eschews missions to street sweep, he isnt seeing all of the great City of Heroes content.
[/ QUOTE ]
XP and I5
[ QUOTE ]
Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
Individually, each of these parts can make sense on their own. Valid arguments can be made (and have been) to support each factor. Taken as a whole, however, the logic starts breaking down. i.e., The sum is greater then the total of the parts.
Hang on. It's going to be a bumpy ride. This is going to cover a lot of ground.
In removing debt for the first 10 levels characters effectively also lose out on additional Influence that can be gained before reaching level 12. Generally speaking, a character needs a minimum of 62K Influence to purchase baseline Dual Origin Enhancements at level 12. (This value can be doubled for builds which are high-intensity in their use of Power-10 Enhancements.)
As a result of this players wanting to load out their slots with Dual Origin Enhancements are left with few options. Receive the additional Influence required from higher level characters via gifts or contests; or exemplar to a lower level until sufficient Influence is gained to afford the Enhancements. Optionally, they can also do without the improved Enhancements as severe penalty to their effectiveness in doing missions and teaming.
With the planned increase on the price of Enhancements this problem will further be exasperated. This is not considering the effects that it will have on purchasing Single Origin Enhancements at level 22.
In the Balance Goal post the premise is put forth that if a player is choosing not to do missions they are missing the content available in City of Heroes. I wholeheartedly agree with this ideal. Unfortunately, with the current experience/level scale the only way that a character could possibly experience all of the content which is available in the game is to work primarily solo with minimal teaming to avoid the additional experience which results from teaming while staying in debt the entire time. My current testing with this is as of yet currently incomplete as I am struggling to be able to complete all of the added content from Striga Isle while being able to complete all of the Task Forces within the range simultaneously. Additionally, a higher level character that I am testing with is finding the same difficulties in being able to experience all the content available at their level through contacts and Task Forces while being able to assist others with their Archvillain missions.
Quite simply, is far too easy for any individual character to out-level all the content that is available to them unless they specifically endeavor to stay in debt and primarily solo. Furthermore, while doing missions attempts must be made to specifically target just the mission goals without clearing the entire mission of all enemies in order to avoid any additional experience from the added targets. Setting the mission difficulty slider above anything over Heroic only makes a problem of being able to experience all of the content even larger.
I have equal skill with being able to solo missions as I do with leading teams through missions. I have, in the past, set the mission difficulty slider to Incredible for some builds specifically for the challenge involved. But I am always left with a hard choice... Go solo at Heroic to experience content with little challenge, Go solo at Incredible to experience challenge while outleveling content, Team with friends and SGs while outleveling content.
I pay for content. I pay to be able to play the game. I truly enjoy it. I am willing to pay for a longer period of time to be able to experience that content so I don't have to purchase another game to find new content. By reducing debt this content becomes increasingly more difficult to experience (if not nigh impossible for 5-10) without resorting to insuring it is kept high through being defeated in zones and avoiding team play.
I would like to propose a solution that will allow players to experience the content without being forced to out-level their content and still allow them to team alongside friends.
A /noexp Command.
Primarily using the same code that is already available through the /exemplar Command, but being self-only with no Combat Level reduction. The only varients that would have to be added to the existing code is the non-assignment of exerience to the character if the /noexp Command is flagged On for the character and that there does not have to be an additional character reducing the user's Combat Level. This will not effect a player's ability to do lower leveled Task Forces as the level limits for them would still require an Exemplaring character to reduce the Combat Level, but would allow a player to experience the content within missions that you put forth as a goal without having to resort to persistant soloing or perma-debt.
This removes (or at least reduces) concerns about characters out-leveling low-end content for levels 5-10. Continues to let players learn the basics of their ArchType from levels 1-5. Allows them to see how their character can mesh with other ArchTpes and playstyles through teaming. Grants them the ability to experience all of the content that is available in City of Heroes through being able to conduct their own missions and arcs from their own contacts. And gives them an opportunity to be able to afford Enhancements to make their character viable against increasingly stronger opponents without resorting to twinking.
or simply remove the level = content equation and allow all content to scale to the persons level so for example the first misson we ever get can be played at level 50 if we keep it that long and still be as challenging comapritive to the level 1 setting for the misson. Basically if we can go to any contact in the game that we have and start playing their content(missons) no matter our level, we can then not have to worry about out leveling anything. perhaps the flashback functionality will be sufficent in fixing this issue.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
One tiny tiny problem with your "solution" if you use this /noexp comand some people may forget their using it so i say make it a button like thing in the options window.
[ QUOTE ]
perhaps the flashback functionality will be sufficent in fixing this issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the main reason for the "Flashback Mode" is exactly for fixing that issue.
NCIS: Best gorram show in the 'verse.
-------------------------
I'm a little mixed on this.
Doesn't half the exp on mission maps just discourage people from playing in Hazard Zones even more? Yes, you'll be getting half as much debt indoors, but that's just semantics. It'll mean you're getting twice as much debt anytime you're not in a mission. Essentially you'll be doing a lot more risky fighting (because of the bigger groups in these zones), but you'll be getting punished twice as hard? That seems completely out of whack for risk vs reward to me.
This especially puts more strain on the 40-50 crowd when you consider just how difficult places like Shadow Shard and the Rikti Crash Site are, and barely anyone goes there as it is. Shouldn't you be looking for more ways to encourage people to go to Hazard Zones?
[ QUOTE ]
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
[/ QUOTE ]
meh. I havn't seen much of an issue as to require this, but you have the numbers.
[ QUOTE ]
XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
So...now you're going to make Hazard and Trial zones even less populated? I can see using less debt as a carrot for missions, but there are 6 Zones that are extremely baren, three of which that see less people than Hellen Keller ever did.
The real question is, did the mapper of Faultline get any recognition? Because the map sure as heck doesn't. 
Cyclone Jack
-= idspispopd =-
[size=1]Arc ID: 3155 - Project Prometheus (Seeking Feedback, now with less invalidation)[/size]
[ QUOTE ]
Couple of changes we're making in I5:
1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.
2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm... Option 1... while interesting, I'd honestly prefer to see some sort of in-game reason for this. Heck, one that explains what debt is "in-game" would be nice. My personal take on Option 1 is that 1-5 should be no debt. 6-10 should be 1/2 debt. 11+ full debt. A good reason for this is that the city understands that new heroes need an ajustment time and this is to help them adjust to life in Paragon City.
Option 2... I like it. I won't have much use for it as I don't die much in missions anymore. I know of several people for whom this will be a godsend though.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.