Statesman: Please don't make this mistake
By
123456789,
Posted on: 2004-09-15 07:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I was in beta for a few wekks before launch. Based on the time I could dedicate to playing, I just decided to try one AT and set about playing the game and filling out the feedback forms as they popped up and to watch out for any bugs. I played a Invul/SS tanker, which I got level 12 before the end of beta. I didnt get to participate in the artificial level boosts as I didnt request to be boosted cause they asked for experienced players to test the upper content.
I would read the beta boards daily and especially the balance issue forum. Now there were quite a few debates on what is too powerful or are things working as intended? One of the debates was "BURN". Most of the beta testers dont participate on this board no more I dont think, becuase of its nature. I dont see Havok or Jesad or Poison or Bugbite or any of those so recognizable names I use to see on the beta boards.
The game was released and I went into a trial and error of finding the AT that fits my style, my time, and my social patterns. I have 7 that I like and they could all have a good bio and theme if I worked at it. They are fun to play. At low levels. Within 2 weeks of release there was a group of players who reached the then max cap 40. TWO WEEKS. I think I was level 7 at that time 
Back then there wasnt the purple patch and certain mobs in areas were not attacking back Not sure who all exploited that or not. The Hammidon could easily be defeated back then too with 8 people.
Well then it was decided that some "adjustments" needed to be made. And it started with one power and then the next and then the next and then the next, and I dont think it will stop. Though its not mass nerfing across the board its just a slow domino effect. This Power is best so folks use it, okay now this is the bes power so we use it, okay now this, now this and so on. So now folks cant use certain powers to get by, they will have to combo it up or develop "strategy" according to some.
I have a level:
20 Ar/Dv Blaster
17 Ice/Storm Controller
17 Invul/War Mace Tanker
14 Claws/Dark Scrapper
12 Fire/Fire Tanker
08 Fire/Dv Blaster
08 Dark/Regen Scrapper
And since the start I must of tried about 12 other combos whom I have since deleted.
I play casually, most often I have to find a pcik up group which I loath cause folks going afk for this reason or that, plus they dont know how each other plays and you die quite a bit. I have a firned in Michigan I play with and she is a Vet to MMOs and we do well wehn grouped. My brother has played a few MMOs but he is too Kamakazee, he will take on too high of stuff and we die. He usually gets in pick up groups over lunch and sometimes I join and the stuff they try to do is just silly. Theres no way, okay if you want to try, gee we all died Going to have to street sweep a couple of hours to work this dbl death off I got within 20 seconds thanks to the Dark rezzor bringing me back in the middle of combat.
Hey that reminds me of EQ! A death and you setback a couple of hours for a few seconds!
Every time I hit a new level, I check the exp needed and what I get vs what mob and get out the calculator. Gee, this will only take 650 of these to get to next level
Okay, you're just suppose to "play" and not worry about leveling, enjoying the "content". Well I gave up on missions cause they were easy too easy or too hard and not worth the time invested vs the streets - and they werent all that interesting to follow. Some were, most werent.
Task Force missions? Never went on one. I switched to second shift and dont have the time to try and do one before work and other responsibilities, plus again, I dont trust pick up groups. So I could do them on the weekends but my brothers wife is around then and weekend play is out for him. So I could ditch em and just play without em.
So that leaves street sweeping. Which is the fastest way to level but the most boring. Leveling has alos gotten to be quite a time sink and I am only at 20. Yeah, I know, some of you are just so gifted at playing games the rest of us just suck and dont know how to play - funny though how you never post your characters and strategy and what you do. You just say we suck
Now I had alot of fun flying around the city, super leaping, super speed, and watching several of the other power effects and that the game was super heroes was a novel idea. But the game is not worth the investment for me now at this time. And I dont like the EQish style of play its taking on (must group/must fine certain powers/must min max). But its a business and things must change and we know that change wont suit everyone.
I think whatever this surprise event Statesman has announced is a step in the right direction. It should be interesting, though I wonder who will get to face whatever it is and who will have to run away! Though just seeing things is fun (end of beta Rikti Invasion).
Maybe someday the game will take another tuen back into a direction I like. The game will constantly change. With Issue 2 coming up, about the only thing I see for me if I renewed is to get a cape
For me there is not enough adventure. If I wrote a comic about my characters it would be pretty boring. On this page I swatted 12 Hellions, next page I swatted 12 Skulls, next page 8 Lost, next page 12 Hellions, next page 15 Skulls - wash rinse repeat.
So they are making the game more challenging. Okay lets go back to previous MMOs we played and what happens when something gets jacked up. We go to where we can "do something". We will aviod the posionous snakes and the clerics who can cast root and death spells and go find the less rsiky wolves for the same exp.
People will stop playing when they cant do anything anymore. Sure sure, every class can solo, but some at a PAINSTAKING pace. Would you pay to do this or go buy something else for you time and money?
After I cancelled, my brother and friend followed suit. We just want a game where we can hang around in. And we will find one we enjoy until it gets tedious. Where "in order to play" is more annoying than just be able to play.
Its a MMO, its a good one, it will have its FAN base like all MMOs and the DEVs will reward that fan base for thier dedication with the things (style of play) they like.
The DEVs here responded and treated its players very well. Customer service was better than any I have seen, but the game just doesnt fit my style of play anymore, and thats okay. The world will still spin.
[ QUOTE ]
So true. This paranoia was rampant on the SWG forums, but I hold a firm belief that although game developers might use forums to help them, they do not let them sway them significantly in relation to actual data mining.
[/ QUOTE ]
How short your memory is...
You do not seem to remember how Mr. 152 hours came out
of the closet and how there were immediate nerfs to compensate
for his power levelling. (not referring to the exploit fixes)
Don't remember the purple patch either ??
Or how Equinox beat down blobbidon and there was a sudden
gang of nerfs related to that.
Maybe these will refresh your memory:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...rfPleadge2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...onminister.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../lilstates.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nerf_daddy.jpg
Zippitydooda,
You got exactly what you aimed for, IMO. Street Sweeping, especially at lower levels, is a great way to miss the game.
The missions, the storylines, the TFs, the ambushes, and the exploration are the heart and soul of the game.
As soon as you look on it as levelling is the goal and therefore street sweeping is the way to achieve that goal, you have stopped playing the game that was designed for you.
Yep but I can see this game now leaning toward Supergroup building and screening players for their power and strategy. And than later, Uber Supergroups in order to face the new challenging high level content. Again EQ.
They said missions are going to get revamped. But I am not going to pay and WAIT. I will cancel and wait.
What story lines? I have a few badges - they werent that fun to achieve. I face Dr Vahz once. Friend grabbed the last body bag mission ended before we could face Vahz
Task Forces Missions are probably fun but most pickup groups are lame.
At 20 I can go in and explore Talos and Independent Port now and such. But everything is yellow to orange. Nope, I dont go here.
Ambushes fun? Heading off to marker mission, POW dead. Dat was fun. Oh I should be watching my back and every corner 24/7. Lets just make FF PvP then.
When the game has more of a story feel I might return.
With the people who are 50, are they "happy" they are 50? Dint they have fun getting to 50? With they go "back" now and play a new character and level this NEW and MORE FUN way to play? Or will they get out thier 50s thanking God they dont have to go through what other now have to?
Why are there so many hazard zones to street sweep in if its a story driven game?
Why are missions put into a red area of the zone in which I have to tip toe to get to and than hope I dont get ambushed coming out by +4 reds? Oh, I forgot, its fun.
Sorry, glad you like this game but when Freedom vs the Third Riech comes out - that will be more for me. If you need to step on my game cause I treaded on yours, I understand.
http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/548/548071p2.html
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So true. This paranoia was rampant on the SWG forums, but I hold a firm belief that although game developers might use forums to help them, they do not let them sway them significantly in relation to actual data mining.
[/ QUOTE ]
How short your memory is...
You do not seem to remember how Mr. 152 hours came out
of the closet and how there were immediate nerfs to compensate
for his power levelling. (not referring to the exploit fixes)
Don't remember the purple patch either ??
Or how Equinox beat down blobbidon and there was a sudden
gang of nerfs related to that
.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hehe I like those pics.
I didnt say change doesnt happen because of peoples actions in game, I said it doesnt happen because peoples whines on the forums.
I fail to see how any of those things prove that the devs changed things based on the forums and not the actual data they got from the servers.
I'd just like to point out that there's no way in hell anyone could divine "what the players want" because what one person wants is probably in direct opposition to what another wants. you just can't do it.
you know there WAS a game that tried to give the palyers what they wanted. it was called "dawn" and it NEVER EVEN GOT MADE.
officially a "self-important forum-facsist[sic]"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So true. This paranoia was rampant on the SWG forums, but I hold a firm belief that although game developers might use forums to help them, they do not let them sway them significantly in relation to actual data mining.
[/ QUOTE ]
How short your memory is...
You do not seem to remember how Mr. 152 hours came out
of the closet and how there were immediate nerfs to compensate
for his power levelling. (not referring to the exploit fixes)
Don't remember the purple patch either ??
Or how Equinox beat down blobbidon and there was a sudden
gang of nerfs related to that.
Maybe these will refresh your memory:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...rfPleadge2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...onminister.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../lilstates.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nerf_daddy.jpg
[/ QUOTE ]
Hahaha, classic!
For those that bash the OP for "crying about nerfs", you're very wrong, what he's doing is not whining about nerfs. He has a VERY valid point.
I'm not sure if you've Statesman's recent posts, but what he is suggesting is a DRASTIC change to the game!
It's not just nerfing, what he's suggesting is to either tone down everyone that solos well, OR making mobs stronger to the point where it would be challenging for that soloer.
You must understand what this means.
Those that ALREADY complain about how hard it is to solo, and how long it takes them to beat a group of mobs, will find it EVEN HARDER!
Defenders and Controllers will be getting the shaft here!
In addition to them, by making mobs harder, it will also make playing a Blaster VERY difficult. As it stands, a Rikti Chief Soldier can almost 1 shot a Blaster as it is. By making them any stronger, it will become VERY frustrating to play a blaster, let alone a defender.
As for Scrappers, look for Regens and SR's getting one-shotted more often, possible IH nerf. (to maintain 'balance')
Definite Invuln nerf. (overpowered as it is)
Expect mobs accuracy and damage to improve to make the game more challenging.
I for one am sick of people asking to have everything handed to them on a silver platter, but a change this big is gamebreaking. From a marketing standpoint, it is a VERY risky move.
[ QUOTE ]
As soon as you look on it as levelling is the goal and therefore street sweeping is the way to achieve that goal, you have stopped playing the game that was designed for you.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the heart of what I have been trying to tell folks. This is not a "min-max powerleveling, get to the top as fast as you can, level is all that matters" type of game. If you're trying to play it in that manner, you -will- be disappointed. This is a story-driven, comic book based game. Your character develops through time by generating stories and having a past that one can reflect upon, not by getting bigger and better armors and weapons.
There are other games out there that are designed more around character "building" (for lack of a better term). There's nothing holding folks to this one when there's probably one better suited to their playstyle.
- Pan
[ QUOTE ]
I fail to see how any of those things prove that the devs changed things based on the forums and not the actual data they got from the servers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Touche'
You are absolutely right, there is no indication (other than timing)
that they used anything from the forums to base their decisions
on.
But, there was some suspicious timing involved... 
[ QUOTE ]
How short your memory is...
You do not seem to remember how Mr. 152 hours came out
of the closet and how there were immediate nerfs to compensate
for his power levelling. (not referring to the exploit fixes)
Don't remember the purple patch either ??
Or how Equinox beat down blobbidon and there was a sudden
gang of nerfs related to that.
Maybe these will refresh your memory:
[/ QUOTE ]
Uhh, hey, thanks for proving my point Vegetator.
The developers base decisions on what happens in game, not what gets whined about on the forums.
[ QUOTE ]
Touche'
You are absolutely right, there is no indication (other than timing)
that they used anything from the forums to base their decisions
on.
But, there was some suspicious timing involved...
[/ QUOTE ]
Because the players got the information at the same time as the developers. So while the developers were evaluating the situation and deciding what to do, the players were kicking and screaming on the forums.
Same logic applies to the SG fix. It dawned on the players as it dawned on the developers. So while one was considering if a fix was in order, the other was complaining. Doesn't mean one caused the other.
[ QUOTE ]
In addition to them, by making mobs harder, it will also make playing a Blaster VERY difficult. As it stands, a Rikti Chief Soldier can almost 1 shot a Blaster as it is. By making them any stronger, it will become VERY frustrating to play a blaster, let alone a defender.
[/ QUOTE ]
What?! You mean it will be hard for a Blaster to solo because they have low HP and defense?!
Wait... sounds to me like that's closer to how Blasters were supposed to work in the first place. Glad to see they're on the right track.
I love people who's main achievement in gaming is spilling coke on their keyboard and soldiering on to finish the level lecturing Statesman and the other devs on what they can/can't should/shouldn't do with their game.
the devs call it "passion" and make encouraging noises, I call it idiocy and walk away from the thread in disgust.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
[ QUOTE ]
Uhh, hey, thanks for proving my point Vegetator.
The developers base decisions on what happens in game, not what gets whined about on the forums.
[/ QUOTE ]
No one proved any of your half witted points...
While it is by no means certain, many of the nerfs were made
in what appeared to be suspiciously direct response to posts that
certain people had made regarding their "accomplishments".
It is quite possible, given the huge volume, that the data was
only mined after those posts gave them reason to focus.
You weren't around for any of that so, kindly, shut the hell up
regarding matters of which you have no knowledge.
[ QUOTE ]
Then the purple patch went in, and it caused about 200 more balance issues with support AT's than it fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know why people are so hopped up over the "purple patch." When I walk down the street and see a purple person, I run the other way or make sure I keep plenty of room between us. That is how it is exposed to go. Fighting a purple, even if it a minion, should be a death sentence. Like Robin soloing the Joker.
I like walking down the street and seing an orange boss with an lt. in tow. I start thinking... "Can I take them?" "I have an aim and a respite, I should be able to take them." I play 2 hours a night and 12 hours over the weekend and I was still able to hit 30 in a month. With the increased xp per mission, I should be able to hit 50 by the years end. Nearly 4 months of fun. Then I will go back to my original character elec/elec blaster which I found boring because I could one shot yellow lts.
And if you think I have a strong build, check the scrapper forum. Super Reflexes is considered gimped compared to the others. I like the risk that Super Reflexes offers. A boss could totally own me in 4 hits at my current level. From what I understand, this will change to one hit in the future. At which time I will more then likely duo a lot with one of my friends.
Now I know some of the "support AT's" can't take a single even level boss and lt. This is why I offer to duo a lot. Unfortunately, a lot of people want large groups and street grind. This is not my thing. Killing a mass of people doesn't make me feel like a hero. Purposely helping the people getting attacked (hassled, etc) or missions where someone is in trouble. That is what heroes do. How often have you read a comic where the hero ran around herding minions back to his buddies to be slaughtered?
I like where they are going with this game. I felt the early levels were too easy. I with these fixes in place, it should now be interesting to hit 20.
Marshal Wagner BS/SR Level 50
Mistress Delight Drk/Drk Level 50
Golden Coy EL/EL Level 42
Helreginn's Hammer WH/WP Level 42
[ QUOTE ]
It is quite possible, given the huge volume, that the data was
only mined after those posts gave them reason to focus.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and if the data was mined and found to be inconsistent with the developers intentions and they decided a fix was in order then the fix was made BECAUSE OF THE DATA, not because of the whines.
There's an ocean of difference between bringing someone's attentiont to something that might need addressing, and directly affecting their actions as a result.
[ QUOTE ]
You weren't around for any of that so, kindly, shut the hell up
regarding matters of which you have no knowledge.
[/ QUOTE ]
Haha. Umm, no. Sorry, dude, I don't bow to the classic forum [censored]'s "I've been here longer so I must be righter," argument. It's funny to see you try to use it, though. I would have expected it from you if anyone.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why people are so hopped up over the "purple patch."
[/ QUOTE ]
Because you didn't have the good fortune to play the game
before they implemented it.
If you eat garbage your entire life, you will never know it tastes
like garbage.
But if you are forced to eat garbage, when it is not your normal
diet, you will find yourself less than happy with the meal...
Blah, get over it.
The Devs try to make the game fun--with their vision. I have a 32 Grav/kin controller, and have played with a Tank through my lvls, about the same ammount of time devoted, he is now 38. I don't care that he lvls faster or can solo better. I still have fun.
Everyone is mad at these "nerfs" because they are selfish. Imps/Phantasm nerfs--totally justifiable. Why would a controller take out mobs? Granted it is nice to be able to, but that's not what you're designed to do. Smoke bomb nerf--what was it, a 220% acc reduction? That is just insane. These mobs must be hitting themselves after that. Horray for the 5% deduction or whatever they are fixing it to. What's wrong? Blasters now have to *think* before going into a battle, or rely on someone else? I like leveling just as much as the next guy, but seriously, take some time to enjoy the game.
Devs, thank for the game--nerf Singy if you want, I'll still use it. Thanks for not letting it do group holds, that would make tanks/scrappers/blasters useless. Thanks for *fixing* tanks and blasters and scrappers, else controllers and defenders would be useless. Thanks for *fixing* Phantasm and Imps, they made tanks and scrappers useless. If I play as a controller and can hold and destroy mobs in seconds, why would I want to play as a tank ever, or even have one play with me?
People have to look at the big picture, not just themselves.
Justice
Incarnate - 50 Elec/SD
Keplar - 50 DM/SR
Gravaton Cleric - 50 Grav/Kin
[ QUOTE ]
Haha. Umm, no. Sorry, dude, I don't bow to the classic forum [censored]'s "I've been here longer so I must be righter," argument. It's funny to see you try to use it, though. I would have expected it from you if anyone.
[/ QUOTE ]
You do not have to "bow to it", twit..
But trying to speak of matters you were not witness to, only
proves that you speak from ignorance.
You weren't around, ergo, you do not know what happened..
End of story.
I'd like to note that players can and do tend to know the big picture. Tankers are broken, and should be fixed, I think Cryptic should listen to the community as a whole when improving things.
Bioware did that wonderfully with Neverwinter Nights, and that still enjoys a very solid, diverse fanbase, who feel they have a say in what happens to their beloved game.
Perhaps the devs should follow the same advice, though catering to *every* player whim would be impossible, and indeed going to the extreme. Just the majority opinions.
To make a game successful, it takes equal parts dev team and community.
There's my 2 cents. Back to lurking.
-Cygnata
Booyah.
Most Nerfs are more than justifiable, and the *only* people who *ever* complain are those that got nerfed. That says plenty.
Every Patch, even the purple one, can be seen as an improvement to CoH... the only people who are hurt by it are those whose playstyles rely on a game imbalance... the moment they get over it/become less stubborn there is no problem... it's a personal issue that they have... tankers and scrappers being useless, that's not a personal thing, that's a quality of game issue...
The Devs have a vision, and though they may cater to the masses at times (CoV being the first XPac, rumored Open PvP zone), their vision of creating a balanced Superhero game still has precedent over a AR/Dev blaster's need to level ASAP or not need to group or whatever it is they want their character to be able to do...
How is this difficult?
[ QUOTE ]
But trying to speak of matters you were not witness to, only
proves that you speak from ignorance.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll be sure to let all Historians know that their profession is a farce. They will be heartbroken.
[ QUOTE ]
You weren't around, ergo, you do not know what happened..
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I didn't realize I was speaking with a Cryptic employee who "was around" when the developers were making decisions about the game, I thought I was talking to a blowhard player who thinks he knows what happened because he spent his time trolling the forums and concocting asinine theories about how the developers make their decisions.
[ QUOTE ]
End of story.
[/ QUOTE ]
We should only be so lucky.
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I didn't realize I was speaking with a Cryptic employee who "was around" when the developers were making decisions about the game, I thought I was talking to a blowhard player who thinks he knows what happened because he spent his time trolling the forums and concocting asinine theories about how the developers make their decisions.
[/ QUOTE ]
You have described yourself perfectly..
You and I share the same boat on that count and you can eat
your own words as your ignorance is doubled:
1, you do not work for Cryptic either
2, you didn't witness anything that occurred so your "theories"
regarding what occurred are even more "assinine", and ignorant,
than mine.
Would you like your face wiped on the sidewalk a bit more ?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SMART developers makes games to make money. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. CoH's success says it's not broken... Gets more broken with each volley of nerfs that force us down 'the vision's' approach, though...
I've seen a number of games wane due to forced visions. We'll see if Cryptic wants to make money or force visions...
-- Xurbax
[/ QUOTE ]
But the game is broken. Smoke Grenades were fun for people who built that type. Until they got to a point where they all said "I'm bored this games not a challenge."
Cyrptic fixes Smoke so that it is working the way they wanted it to work from jump and every one crys Nerf. In some cases the same people who were saying the game is boring and not a challenge.
I play Tanks. Tanks have issues that need to be addressed. Part of those issues is the Disparity in level times. If player X can solo to 50 in 100 hours and player Y takes 500 hours thats a big spread.
Now its up to Cryptic as to how they want to address that disparity. In the case of the X/Dev builds the choice in part is to fix smoke and slow down that groups leveling. But the other part of it is to tweak down Tanker Melee end costs which shoudl hopefully cut the time to level for Tankers.
The Devs here seem to be taking a very balanced approch to doing this. Trimming some from the fast, and boasting up some on the slow.
If you want to insist that there is nothing broken when on my Blaster I can blow away Yellow Cons with a Single Shot, while it takes my non Fire Tank 90 seconds to drop the same level mob thats fine you can insist on that. But I play both and I say its broken, Blasters were and are over powered. The game needs more balance then it has.
Phosphorus
[/ QUOTE ]
Smartest post in this thread. People most always tend to speak of the game by thier selfish point-of-view. If something gets "fix" and effects say person, they get upset and never really think about WHY it was done. Just that they got nerfed and how dare the Devs try to push thier "vision" on them.
People need to think about of the whole picture, and one of the most important aspects of an online game, besides being fun to play, is its balance. There has to be balance in order to prevent a game becoming out of wack, IE City of AoE/Blasters. It's much easier to bring down an overpowered or broken AT, then it is to bring up the tons of other ATs which in turn opens up even more trouble.
Nerfs happen in online games because they are not single player games where you play it once or twice and then forget about it. There are 1000s and 1000s of other players that don't want to play FOTM heros and want to play on a fair playing field. Wish people would understand that, Devs are not singling out YOU, they are only trying to keep a balance in the game.
Interesting....
A Developer who doesn't take the suggestions of it's customers into account is being foolish....Period.
Suggestions are not whines..It's a cheap cowardly attempt at generalizing anyone who has a suggestion.
That being said Cryptic should never dump their original vision. After all we bought into it or we wouldn't be here..
SOE's downfall was letting the gulf between the power of casual and powergamers go unchecked. Another Huge downfall was bumping mob HP's to silly levels in lou of fixing AI. As long as Cryptic keeps these two mistakes in mind they'll be fine.
Truthfully it's publishers that make the final decisions on this stuff anyway. If sales/subscriptions start dropping changes will be made.
Trust me..
Too bad the powergamers couldn't just be moved onto a server where everything stays like it was on day one and they can all have 'fun' their way and the rest of us can embrace the developers vision, see the changes that the developers give, and enjoy the new content, all in line with that vision.
I really like their vision. It is soundly based in balance, fun, teamplay vs soloability, and most importantly, it suits the genre. They've got a great game here and with every patch and with every nerf, it just keeps getting better and better.
Fanboy? Maybe. Better than a raving, venom-spewing hater because the game doesn't suit them.
If your definition of 'fun' was reducing mobs to 0 range with smoke grenades and running over +3 mobs with fire imps without missing a beat, then perhaps the game for you is Tic-Tac-Toe. I'll even let you move first. That's not this game and it was never intended to be this game.