Statesman: Please don't make this mistake
By
123456789,
Posted on: 2004-09-15 07:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
It's really too bad that you want to keep the challenge level constant in the game. At level 30+ I have more powers but I'm still hitting just hard enough to stay alive. How is this fun? You'll turn CoH into a levelling treadmill.
I like the idea of hitting 30 and wacking on a lot of minions at once. You feel more powerful that way.
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly why I never start a thread on these forums. No one is entitled to his or her opinion here, it seems.
[/ QUOTE ]
*snore*
Please. There's quite a difference between "having an opinion," and making a post about how the developers of the game should be chaing the way they do their jobs based on that opinion.
One is acceptable. The other deserves exactly the response I gave it. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
See thats the problem, I don't really have much faith that in this happening at an appropriate level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who can blame you? I mean, with all the experience we have with Cryptic releasing content updates for this game, I don't think anyone has faith in them knowing how to adjust their game properly.
Oh... wait, that's right, there have been no major content updates. So, what's your lack of faith based on, besides your desire to have something to complain about?
[ QUOTE ]
He'll cut the good builds to 1/10th the xp/hr then compensate by upping the xp of minions by 30%
[/ QUOTE ]
Aww, cute. Thanks for the totally baseless, almost certainly wrong assumptions with numbers you pulled from deep within the recesses of your turd factory.
[ QUOTE ]
This is far more likely to happen in a mmo
[/ QUOTE ]
Haha. Yes, based on all the other Super Hero MMOs from Cryptic Studios, I think it's safe to make this assumption.
[ QUOTE ]
and is what we're on the path to seeing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it's easy to say we're "on the path" once you make a string of arbitrary assumptions to get us there.
How about instead of making these completely random assumptions, we wait and see how he ACTUALLY fixes the issue and then critique the result?
[/ QUOTE ]
They've already boosted the difficulty of bosses/lts in Issue 2 and there was no commesurate increase in xp for them.
Thanks. Play again. Actually don't, stop trolling me. Please.
Honestly I don't really buy into what Statesman is saying here. This game has a few problems in my mind.
First the social aspect is harder to do in this game. When your in a group fighting you have to be continually hitting the buttons which makes typing in chat tough. In a normal mission your fighting almost constantly in a group. I like that there is no downtime but I don't like that I have to hit skills constantly.
Second the missions aren't all that varied. You do a lot of the same thing over and over again. Even tasks forces are just a group of missions. They do a good job with the stories but the missions all play the same. Ambushes actually add a little challenge and fun to the othewise boring go to this mission then go to this mission then go sell.
You combine this and I spend a lot of time in groups just doing mindless fighting. The big satisfaction is seeing that experience bar move and even at 35 it moves pretty darn slow.
So now you tell me your basically going to nerf until +1 or +2 are hard. If you don't up the experience then it will take a long time to level. Isn't part of this whole plan specifically to slow down leveling? It seems like it is.
The other thing that worries me is that this is a huge change to the game. What will missions be like if yellows are very hard to kill. Will we end up where if you want to group your going to need a balanced group like Everquest? Will grouping end up being a lot faster than soloing? It all sounds to me like the game is moving towards almost a forced grouping format. Right now if we have a big group and do a Devouring Earth mission we can have problems. It isn't always easy.
I hope you really think through the changes your going to do here. The biggest appeal of this game to me and many others is its easy to get into and play. You can accomplish something in a short time and you don't need to look around for a group if you don't want to. Unless you made a character that is specifically group dependant.
[ QUOTE ]
In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.
Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree completely, and your post made me think back to my early levels, and Truth be told, if you discount my 'powers' .. and just focus on the gameplay/combat aspect in general, i enjoyed the early game *much* more.. i grouped more, everyone had a role, no one seemed to focus on a few specific powers - everything was useful! Now in my late game i only group with a core set of people i know (this is because of a lot of reasons, but the #1 reason is that no one *else* wants to group either)
That being said, I say be very careful Statesman.. While this patch may take care of issues described above, and be a generically good thing, a LOT of players will see this in a negative light, because there is somethign special about killing a Red boss in 4 hits, I mean.. its the sense of 'power' in general.. its a sense of advancement and accomplishment.. its nice to say 'yay.. i can now solo red things' .. A lot of people will think your taking they're power away by making enemies stronger.
Ontop of that, The experience issue is absolutely *critical* .. A lot of players feel that 30+ Experience comes very slow, and now that you've said minions are going to be made harder, and fights in general will become tougher.. What everyone is worried about is how this fix will effect they're experience gain.. NO one wants it to be harder to gain xp.. so you might want to state for the record if this will modify our xp gain or not.
[ QUOTE ]
Nice post, States. But...
If I'm supposed to be challenjed by 3 white minions, Why do i have to face 5-9 at once in a solo mission? And why are they (post 30) worth piddling experience if i'm going to risk my life fighting them?
[ QUOTE ]
A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard - a single -2 minion should be pretty easy.
[/ QUOTE ]
So where in that does a +2 Boss fall? Impossible? AV? Instant Death? We're still going to be facing their like in missions, after all. (Rikti changes scare me the most about this - a pair of 31 bosses nailed my 30 hero for about 1000 damage on test. Regeneration scrapper, and yes, with tough and resilience. And yes, i died instantly. Granted, I probably have no business doing 2 red bosses at once, but if i can't even react to their attacks, then they're a wee bit overboard, being only 1 level above me.)
So a +2 minion is going to be a tough fight? god forbid we ever feel like superheroes, eh...
[/ QUOTE ]
1. Exp on test has been boosted at least in missions. This should help alot.
2. Same level bosses are easier for some than others....
Your last comment confuses me... and shows your true confusion.
We're heroes.... Heroes are NOT imortal gods.
Fighting a +2 minion SHOULD be difficult. He may be a minion, but they're more experienced than you, which gives them a balancing edge... +2 LTs, Bosses, and AVs are vastly superior than you mano-a-mano, but you're a human being, so damnit use your noodle and outthing the AI. It is doable to a degree... Hell, a same level AV should be a loosing proposition without help. Most AVs beat the crap out of heroes man to man.
For all practical purposes, Doc Oc OWNED Spiderman.
If all else fails, either skip that mission, or go gather a group of like minded heroes to take down your target.
I know some of you closet sociaopaths don't like the idea of actually trying to talk to anyone else in game or in real life, but how heroic is that!?
Even the most stuborn sociophobic heroes needed a hand at some point, and those that didn['t ask for it are probably fertalizing Atlast Park.
If you force us to play the entire game fighting +1 mobs at the current xp rate, this game will have the steepest treadmill grind in the industry. just pointing that out.
*sigh*.... this entire topic sounds like YET ANOTHER pointless whine about "nerfing". "OMG I CANT BE UBER ANYMORE!!!!1111!111!!11!!1!one!!!"
WHEN will people ever realize that these "nerfs" arent in there to tick you off, but to make the game more BALANCED? Like the whole blaster thing.... I've used a blaster.... they ARE overpowered. A nerf of some sort (I dont know what specifically, that's up to the devs), is very much needed there. No, players wont like it... er, the whiney ones anyway, but it will work out very well in the long run. As "nerfs" generally do.
I personally am looking forward to this game becoming more challenging. I like a challenge, and right now soloing is a bit easy. Cant wait for it.
"A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard "
Ouch. That's going to hurt.
Let me explain why... I was recently in a group, 30 controller, 30 blaster, 30 scrapper, 29 blaster. Good group, had fun, played for hours. We had a mission, Nemisis vs. Rikti in the sewers. When we rounded one corner two people died almost instantly. We had run into a group consisting of 2 level 30 Warhulks, 4 level 32 rikti Lts, 2 level 30 nemisis Lts, and about a half dozen minions. I think that there were probably two spawns very close to each other. We took them, after regrouping and planning for a bit. But under the '+2 is very hard' idea we would have been so challenged by that group that we might not have been able to finish the mission.
If you want to develop the '+2 is very hard' you need to be aware that the levels of some things in missions are beyond, sometimes far beyond, the stated -1 to +1 levels that are supposed to be in there. At level 20 my controller had a mission with a level 23 Skyraider Lt as the 'boss'. At level 28 a timed mission with a 32 Nemisis Lt as 'flavor', and another mission with a 30 Rikti boss. These are only a few of the 'boss' style mission mobs that seem to have hardcoded levels, no matter what level the player is when they take them.
Having to fail a mission, or quit it and level up twice in order to finish it, because of a hardcoded mob level, is not fun. Alternately running through a mission and finding the 'boss' is a Lt three levels below the rest of the mission is a bit amusing, but not the least bit challenging.
Lastly, alot of controllers and defenders already find anything +2 levels above them to be very challenging. Alot of these people would like the option of not having to absolutely depend on groups to do a mission or level faster than once a month. In the 26 to 32 range the non-damage oriented classes start having issues with the amount of time it takes them to do anything without a group.
More and more my non-damage characters are starting to not feel like heroes unless they have a blaster of scrapper to group with. Is this intentional?
[ QUOTE ]
At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35.
[/ QUOTE ]
Statesman,
While I completely agree with you, my biggest concern is that making mobs harder in higher lvls will just take that much longer to level. They should be harder, but there shouldn't be less rewards for killing them.
Example
1 even minion @ lvl 10 - 1.5% of xp needed for lvl 11
1 even minion @ lvl 35 - 0.0000000000000243% of xp needed for lvl 36.
I know that the business model of MMORPGs is basically make lower lvls quicker to get the player hooked and higher lvls slower so they're stay hooked longer...but if this curve is obviously increasing exponentially to the point of just being ridiculous, only those who love extremely monotonous 10 hour xp grinds a day are going to make it past lvl 30.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One quick question Statesman, what about the Defenders and Controllers that ALREADY have a hard time with mobs?
How would these changes affect them?
[/ QUOTE ]
When a Blaster can't Alpha Strike a group of 10 +2 Minions, maybe he'll want a Controller or Defender around to make sure he doesn't instantly die to the return volley.
Also, as a level 28 Mind Controller I can say with confidence that Statesman's statement that things get easier after level 22 is true even for what many consider one of the weakest powersets.
[/ QUOTE ]
no, he'll want enough blasters in the group to make sure it is 1 strike only.
[ QUOTE ]
I honestly believe most people play this game for Fun, not for a challenge. If I want a challenge I will spend more time at work. I am looking to relax with my free time I use for entertainment.
[/ QUOTE ]
But for many people the challenge IS the fun. This isn't like real life, where failing at a 'challenge' could have very unpleasant real-world consequences. Just like any other game, you just drop another quarter in the slot and start again.
I have no real idea how any particular changes in the game affect the majority of players. Maybe the concern from the developers was that many people were already leaving, and the reason behind it was that they progressed quickly, found the higher levels were devoid of much to do, and left out of boredom. Maybe they find that most of the people who complain that they're leaving because they can't level fast enough don't actually leave.
It always seemed to me that the people who spent the most time warning of Everquest's impending doom were the same players who kept playing and who kept buying expansions and who kept putting money in Sony's pocket. When they actually did manage to cancel their accounts, they'd go from message board to message board and hassle anyone who made even a mild complaint, urging them to quit already. And yet, two months later, they'd be playing again.
I think that if the people making those complaints really were leaving, that would have a notable impact on the developers. But much of the complaining seems based on what people THINK has happened, or think is GOING to happen. And often those people quietly continue to play when they find that the changes they worried about did not have the feared impact on their enjoyment.
The developers may simply realize that calling your bluff works remarkably well.
So, basically, we're looking at the purple patch revisted?
Okay, I'm stretching things here, but to make +2 mobs a REAL challenge for the solo player, they're also going to be a REAL challenge for a group. In the Respec TF, we fight nigh-endless waves of +2 (than the highest member) bad guys. And they're mostly bosses. Assuming we're all the same level, then, We are going to be in for a hell of a fight, group or no group... and we will likely die. Why? Because we already die, and that's without +2's being, as you say, "REALLY hard" (since apparently they aren't, yet.)
What's wrong with this picture?
*And I'll say for the record that I will only leave the game when I stop having fun, and that hasn't happened yet. Just my 2 influence.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
[ QUOTE ]
You ARE getting stronger. Go back and fight those villians that kicked your *** 20 levels ago to see that. However, the enemies you're fighting get stronger, too. That doesn't nullify the fact that you're getting stronger, though. It just means you're taking on foes that you had no hope of beating 20 levels ago.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem, I think, is that it makes the game rather vanilla. You start the game being able to hold ground against 3 whites, you end the game being able to hold ground against 3 whites. It seems there will never be the perception that your hero is getting stronger.
Once you get SO's, being able to solo 10 +0/+1/+2's makes you feel heroic and powerful. Being able to solo a handful of +3's makes you feel really powerful. Soloing a +4 makes you feel incredibly lucky and really powerful. Not to mention, it's really fun to feel that way. It is this feeling, this perception that makes the game so enjoyable.
Once this perception fades, once the game is molded to make 3 white cons a challenge from 1-50, by level 10 you've experienced the game. That will be it. You will feel no more powerful, you will feel no less powerful. You will take new powers merely to hold the line, to not fall behind the difficulty level.
As a scrapper nearing the end of level 38, I've depleated my availability of missions, except 1, to kill 40 Rikte in the abandoned sewers. I can't solo the sewers, I can take about 1 group of Hydra before depleting my stock of inspirations. These are level 39 Hydra, not 40's or anything higher.
Disappointed that I probably would never make it far enough into the sewers to find Rikte (or make it back out alive afterwards), I decided to try a little minion hunting in Peregrine, something I've never done. I managed to find some small groups (2 and 3) of 41 and 42 Nemesis, these were a challenge. A 42 lt. nearly killed me. I had to run from a group of 43's. Once I'd killed all the 41's and 42's I could find, they all respawned as 43's. I went back to hunting DE in Founders.
I liked having this option. It was short-lived, but the xp was pretty good (really good compared to hunting evens). At the higher levels, leveling really becomes a slog. Fighting mobs a few levels higher (and reaping those rewards) breaks this feeling of wading through molasses.
Having the even level mobs be rather easy is excellent, it's perfect. I can still spend time fighting them when I'm having off days or am too tired to worry about fighting higher level stuff. I like being able to do this without feeling like I'm sacrificing experience to take it easy for a night, which I do when fighting blues and greens.
On a side note: I don't really think Nemesis needed stun. I like fighting 5th Column and Nemesis now precisely because they don't stun. I still fight Devouring Earth and Thorns, they're more plentiful, but having at least a group of enemies that isn't a headache provides good variety. If the devs wanted to even out the enemies, it would have been better to just lower the xp for Nemesis like they have with the prisoners in Brickstown. Making every group a pain to fight disincentives people from wanting to level through the game. When the game becomes more cumbersome than enjoyable, I'll leave or just start another character.
The only experience in the game is not that gained from killing mobs, but that also that gained from playing the game. Don't make the experience unenjoyable.
[ QUOTE ]
Once this perception fades, once the game is molded to make 3 white cons a challenge from 1-50, by level 10 you've experienced the game. That will be it. You will feel no more powerful, you will feel no less powerful. You will take new powers merely to hold the line, to not fall behind the difficulty level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Argh...
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
[ QUOTE ]
Statesman said:
Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes. The missions cease to be entertaining, because a +1 mobs are just too easy. Better XP can be found by taking on +4 mobs in zones. Single characters can take on spawns that are intended for many heroes. And there's no place for a maximum sized group to go in order to find a tough and rewarding battle.
In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess my first thought would be "What's the point of SO's if you're merely going to raise the difficulty of mobs to compensate for the greater power?"
I do agree to some extent that 20+ missions and even level mobs get to be too easy. I'm hoping that simply making them more difficult isn't the way you'll fix this. Spawn size, greater numbers of Lt's in missions (I often do level 25-30 missions without a single Lt), greater agro ranges would perhaps work, without making us feel like the 150k of influence we just dropped on our shiney new SO enhancements is no more than a money sink.
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.
[/ QUOTE ]
you're the King of CoH! i dont think anyone would begrudge you rambling . . .
[ QUOTE ]
See thats the problem, I don't really have much faith that in this happening at an appropriate level. He'll cut the good builds to 1/10th the xp/hr then compensate by upping the xp of minions by 30% (leaving lt's/bosses alone). So minions will be 2x as hard to kill, lt's/bosses become much harder but worth no more xp, and all you get is a 1.3x for the minion kills.
[/ QUOTE ]
Put the phone down. Miss Cleo is a fraud. You're apparantly behind on the times...
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
[ QUOTE ]
4. It's not fun to battle 3 white minions at 35. One of the BEST things about this game was, as it went on, you felt more powerful relative to the environment. This is different from most games where you become weaker later and MORE dependent on teams. I think THIS IS THE REASON YOU HAVE BEEN SO SUCCESSFUL.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. If it doesn't get easier to defeat white cons as you level, you lack a sense of 'true' progress, relative to the bad guys. I like it that my Blaster can now take (small) groups of Yellow minions with little risk. But groups of red minions still p3wn me.
[ QUOTE ]
Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with the philosophy here, but please keep a couple of things in mind. First, I need a place where I can find those three white minions to fight. I like your comments on the differences between the city, hazard, and trial zones. I just hope the city zones will be balanced so that I can solo or duo the average group I find there. But if you balance the white minions so 3 of them are an appropriate challenge then spawn 6 of them in the city zones with 2 LTs and a boss...
Second, I'm a hero. Eventually lackeys and minions get a little mundane, no matter how challenging they actually are. In the Archvillain thread someone mentioned (and I added to) the thoughts of a class of villain somewhere between a boss and and AV. A single one of these waiting for at the end of a mission could be a great challenge.
I respectfully disagree with this design goal. Making us fight the same number and color of mobs the entire game will really reduce the perception of advancement and make the various areas of the game seem even *more* similar. One very visible and simple way to see progress in the game is to face higher color mobs. By retuning the game away from that simple progression you are removing a effective method of demonstrating an increase in capability.
Unless you dramatically rework eps for higher level mobs you are also effectively increasing the time it takes to level at these levels by 3 or 4. I don't know that the game needs or wants higher levels to take even longer.
If you make your design goal as follows:
Low level (training enhancements): 0s
Medium level (dual origin): +1s
High level (single origin): +2s
With this scheme you are much closer to today's reality and players will have a better sense of advancement. Otherwise you never *gain* in power - instead you race to "keep up." Instead of trying to retune all the mobs in the game and remove a simple and effective way of showing player advancement (relative to the game) why not just add a difficulty slider to missions?
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
[ QUOTE ]
Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Have you considered the possibility that it's the SOs that are a big part of the reason for this problem? I play a blaster and by level 24 or so, I have all of my attack powers slotted with 6 damage SOs (plus targetting drone for accuracy). This means that I am doing 3 times as much damage as another blaster AT MY LEVEL who didn't understand SOs properly and slotted ACC, Recharge and END into all of his powers and tried to spread things out a bit.
That's quite a brutal spread to try to balance for, to say nothing of the defenders, tankers and Controllers who were behind me in the first place and who probably can't six-slot their attack powers with damage SOs (the'y busy focusing on their AT-defining powers).
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
See thats the problem, I don't really have much faith that in this happening at an appropriate level. He'll cut the good builds to 1/10th the xp/hr then compensate by upping the xp of minions by 30% (leaving lt's/bosses alone). So minions will be 2x as hard to kill, lt's/bosses become much harder but worth no more xp, and all you get is a 1.3x for the minion kills.
[/ QUOTE ]
Put the phone down. Miss Cleo is a fraud. You're apparantly behind on the times...
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it's not that imaginitive.
It was stated that minion hp would increase by roughly 30% and that the xp would scale with it. That would seem to imply at MOST a 30% increase to minion xp. The xp might not even scale on a 1 to 1 basis with the minion hp.
Now, if the current better builds are relegated to fighting off 3 whites as a challenge, that is going to be *roughly* 10% of the xp they were getting prior to issue 2.
Therefore, while having no psychic ability, it would seem reasonable given the developers stated direction with the game, that the end result would be this.
Man, I actually consider myself a fanboy for this game and give some pretty glowing reviews when I get asked about it. I'm nothing compared to your blind flaming & demeaning of any suggestion that something won't be done right.
Cause, we all know Ignite was "fixed" so that it was still a good power. Oh.. wait... nm...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. What did they fix that wasn't broken? Smoke grenade? Or was it the fire imps?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, Fire Imps
Statesman has said as much directly. I don't have the reference quote, may be in the 100+ page thread on them in the controller forum, but Fire Imps were were reduced because they were too effective, not because of a bug.
Before you point to the classification of Imps, they could have altered the class without dramatically altering the stats.
They changed Imps in a substantial way, to their detriment. They were not broken. Perhaps overpowered, but not as a result of a bug (like SG), but as a result of failing to balance them propoerly in them first place. Now they have been hit hard (let me hear you not complain if your biggest attack is reduced by over 50%).
[ QUOTE ]
There's really no reason a ball of flame shouldn't burn a +20 level, but otherwise normal human, just as much as it does an even one. You don't "dodge" an all-encompassing ball of flame that fills the entire space. You don't "dodge" a lightning bolt that has found your body.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just a comment on this. In Dungeons & Dragons, there was a thing called a Saving Throw. Basically, higher-level character have a chance to reduce or completely avoid damage from Spells like Fireball. The explanation for how this works is that the character finds some way to avoid the damage. In the case of a fireball, there are ways you could avoid being burned, such as hiding behind some obstacle (a shield?) or diving out of the range of the fireball, or dousing yourself with a bucket of water right before it hits. Far-fetched, I know, but then again, the whole game concept of fighting dragons and such is far-fetched. So CoH or EQ could explain this kind of thing the same way. You don't actually see the hero animate the defensive move, you just have to use your imagination.