Statesman: Please don't make this mistake
By
123456789,
Posted on: 2004-09-15 07:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Case in point: much of our zone distribution, spawn placement and mission difficulty is based on a simple supposition. Players should be entertained/challenged by mobs -2 to +2 levels different. A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard - a single -2 minion should be pretty easy. But that's the range that much of the game hangs on. And that works great for levels 1 to 20, in my opinion.
Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes. The missions cease to be entertaining, because a +1 mobs are just too easy. Better XP can be found by taking on +4 mobs in zones. Single characters can take on spawns that are intended for many heroes. And there's no place for a maximum sized group to go in order to find a tough and rewarding battle.
In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.
Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.
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I think that your vision is great in the long run. And yes this is your game that we are paying to play. I can understand the feeling about not wanting to take out 3 +4 bosses at once. But lets look at it like this. We are super heroes...minions should be easy for us... I think that 3 to 5 minions should be no problem for all attacking AT's. Now after that I feel that yes it should get harder. But I do not feel that it should be so hard that in every fight you get your butt handed to you, after all we are super heroes. Bosses and AV's should be butch... sorry AV's are Butch but bosses well are too easy. I think you should look at increasing the abiltys of the LT's and Bosses, not the minons. I feel that they are were they need to be. But in all I love this game and feel that every change so far is for the better. Would I leave if the changed all the mobs...no but I felt like given my 2 cents.
Hope you plan on upping the xp for white cons if you're going to up the difficulty, my man. Fighting the +4 mobs you describe still takes forever to level in the 30+ game. 
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It's really too bad that you want to keep the challenge level constant in the game. At level 30+ I have more powers but I'm still hitting just hard enough to stay alive. How is this fun? You'll turn CoH into a levelling treadmill.
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This is really the point that needs to be driven home here and I hope Statesman takes it to heart.
In every other MMO I've played, I woke up one day and realized that gaining levels, getting new powers and becoming more "poweful" was ultimately pointless. You became more powerful simply so you could fight more powerful mobs. And once it becomes plainly clear it really is a pointless leveling treadmill, the game quickly becomes boring and I loose interest.
CoH has been different though, and stands apart from other MMOs in that when you gain levels you really do feal more powerful in comparison to the mobs your own level. The best thing about CoH is that at lvl 22 you can flatten a group of minions that would've kicked your butt at lvl 12. That makes you feel like a superhero. In fact, I always assumed this was just part of the design of the game... making heros feel more heroic as they leveled.
That being said, there is a problem in that large groups aren't desirable at high levels since one or two heros (for some ATs) can handle just about anything thrown at them, up until the purple patch brick wall.
But there must be a solution to this problem other than making it so heros no longer feel heroic.
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Please. There's quite a difference between "having an opinion," and making a post about how the developers of the game should be chaing the way they do their jobs based on that opinion.
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And there's also quite a difference in politely debating vs being an overt flaming a$$hat like you always prefer being.
I agree with some of the points you make, but your delivery is 'teh suck!'
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I've seen a lot of posts from you about how you want us to play the game.
You really, really, want to think carefully about forcing the players to your vision.
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I stopped here in hilarious laughter.
Developers make games in order to realize their vision in the form of a game. That's why they do it. That's the whole [censored] point to the job. If you don't like their vision, then don't play their game.
What's the alternative? Your vision?
Haha.
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Actually, not to be pedantic, they do it to make money and maybe have some fun along the way. End of story. They have to take in the best consideration of their customers or it won't make money. Of course you can't please everybody, so you aim for pleasing most...
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SMART developers makes games to make money. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. CoH's success says it's not broken... Gets more broken with each volley of nerfs that force us down 'the vision's' approach, though...
I've seen a number of games wane due to forced visions. We'll see if Cryptic wants to make money or force visions...
-- Xurbax
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The game is very "broke" despite it being fun. There are huge balance issues. Even Statesman acknowledges that.
Post deleted by Francessa
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35 as it was at lv 15, will make it so that I'll never have the oppurtunity to feel more powerful as I grow/level.
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Sorry, but being able to take down a mob at level 35 that would have 1-shot killed you at level 5 doesn't make you feel more powerful?
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Exactly. What did they fix that wasn't broken? Smoke grenade? Or was it the fire imps?
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Actually, Fire Imps
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Fire Imps weren't broken?! The [Censored] are you smoking and where can I get some? The devs outright said they were MISTAKENLY classified as minions. Thus, they were broken.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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35 as it was at lv 15, will make it so that I'll never have the oppurtunity to feel more powerful as I grow/level.
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Sorry, but being able to take down a mob at level 35 that would have 1-shot killed you at level 5 doesn't make you feel more powerful?
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No. It's a relative power issue, not a direct one.
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I thought I'd post here to explain why developers make changes to MMP games. In a nutshell: because they think it'll make the long term enjoyment better.
...
In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - ...
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The issue with doing this is the tedium factor.
At L32, you need to defeat exactly 2400 even con minions to progress to L33. 386400 exp required at 161 per even minion. Do the math. At L33 that number increases to exactly 2600.
Is this really where you want your game going? Multiple thousands of even con's to level?
My other question is this. What exactly is wrong with players taking out mobs that are many levels about them, as long as the reward matches the risk?
I would draw your attention to a very enjoyable pastime in Earth and Beyond called a "Scooter Raid." Scooter was a named boss that dropped "phat lewt". To get him to spawn, it was necessary to defeat multiple instances of the same group of three mobs. A Scooter Raid could last for a couple of hours before he finally spawned.
The kicker is that the highest combat level in the game was Combat level 50, while the spawn consisted of a LEVEL 63, a LEVEL 65, and a LEVEL 66! As in mobs 13 to 16 levels above the players.
However, it required well organized and good sized group to pull this off, typically 18 to 24 players working as a team.
My question to you is this. Why do you find this idea so abhorrent?
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Ditto. Exactly how many white mobs do you want it to take to get to 50? How many hours would you consider a reasonable amount of time to arrest/kill this amount? 100? 400? 700?
I'd have no problems, and actually likely might even enjoy the game more, if the exp we lost by not being able to do anything above a white treadmill if that exp was made up in some other part of the game. For one thing I'm waiting on the mission bonuses and hoping that they start to tip thing in the right direction. Like the change, but will hold judgement on it until I have a few levels under my belt with the new systems in place.
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Actually, it's not that imaginitive.
It was stated that minion hp would increase by roughly 30% and that the xp would scale with it. That would seem to imply at MOST a 30% increase to minion xp. The xp might not even scale on a 1 to 1 basis with the minion hp.
Now, if the current better builds are relegated to fighting off 3 whites as a challenge, that is going to be *roughly* 10% of the xp they were getting prior to issue 2.
Therefore, while having no psychic ability, it would seem reasonable given the developers stated direction with the game, that the end result would be this.
Man, I actually consider myself a fanboy for this game and give some pretty glowing reviews when I get asked about it. I'm nothing compared to your blind flaming & demeaning of any suggestion that something won't be done right.
Cause, we all know Ignite was "fixed" so that it was still a good power. Oh.. wait... nm...
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Very nice, but it's ALL speculation. You said they WILL do this. However, you have no way of knowing that they WILL do it unless you have some nifty precognative abilities...
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
*sigh*
People have the wrong idea...
Look, this "game" isn't really a game at all. That's not its purpose, not really.
A game is primarily what? In loose terms, an enjoyable activity that pits one player in competition with another player, or against some obstacle.
Sure, CoH does that, but that's not why we "play".
How much time have you spent designing Characters? Maybe not even thinking up backstories, but just on costume, on concept?
Sometimes I feel like I have more "fun" designing the Characters than I actually do playing the Characters.
And that's the truth of it.
The REAL revolutionary aspect of CoH isn't in its world, which is pretty mundane when you think of it. Aside from the glowie here and there, which involves virtually nil skill, you just go around and beat stuff up. No throwing cars, no picking up lamposts no doing really anything with the world itself. How many times have you slid through a car? In fact, I can walk on molten lava and not feel the burn at all. I can be an ordinary hero and plummet from a 30 story building and walk away.
What about the player on player interaction....
Well, you really don't exactly interact with other players... rely on them maybe, perhaps even talk... but interact, real interaction.... no.
There must be good and bad for there to be real interaction, and the only bad I've seen is when a player angers a healer and is left to die for their error.
So really, the interaction is nil. Relaince, yes, real interaction? No.
No, the real reason we play is because the "game" grants us the ability to make almost any kind of Character and have a running fantasy that we are them.
Other games don't do this. Sure inEQ you can be an elf or a dwarf... what are elves or dwarves? tall skinny guys with pointy ears?
Got 'em.
What are dwarves, short stocky guys with long beards? Got 'em.
I can be a black knight with a massive axe.
I can be a white knight with a magical broadsword..
or a stealthy assassin with super fast reflexes and a highly deadly katana.
This is why you hear all kinds of complaints over silly things like "Why does my magical broadsword have to look like everyone elses magical broadsword"?
When a player isn't complaining about how their toon sucks, they're complaining about lack of customization...
And you think "Well that's silly, as far as customization goes, you can't do much better than CoH"...
and that's true, I won't dispute it...but the huge pull FOR CoH is the customization....
people get thrilled about quarterstaff combat.
Why, why is that? So you're thwacking them with a stick instead of an axe... big deal?
But in their head... they think it's spectacular.
So yes, they should be working to make the game more enjoyable... more balanced so people stop complainging about sucking...but they need to focus more on customization... that's where the real strength of CoH lies.
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35 as it was at lv 15, will make it so that I'll never have the oppurtunity to feel more powerful as I grow/level.
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Sorry, but being able to take down a mob at level 35 that would have 1-shot killed you at level 5 doesn't make you feel more powerful?
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No. It's a relative power issue, not a direct one.
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What the hell is that supposed to mean? You are more powerful at level 35 than you were at level 5. But you're not fighting the same foes anymore. You're fighting more powerful foes. The foes you are fighting at level 35 would have wiped the floor with you. You're now powerful enough to take them down. That's being more powerful. End of story. No made-up spin doctored terminology can change that. If you don't feel more powerful being able to one-shot bosses that posed a challenge 30 levels ago, then you never will.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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I thought I'd post here to explain why developers make changes to MMP games. In a nutshell: because they think it'll make the long term enjoyment better.
Human nature often demands immediate gratification. Sometimes, this comes into conflict with the long term enjoyment.
Case in point: much of our zone distribution, spawn placement and mission difficulty is based on a simple supposition. Players should be entertained/challenged by mobs -2 to +2 levels different. A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard - a single -2 minion should be pretty easy. But that's the range that much of the game hangs on. And that works great for levels 1 to 20, in my opinion.
Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes. The missions cease to be entertaining, because a +1 mobs are just too easy. Better XP can be found by taking on +4 mobs in zones. Single characters can take on spawns that are intended for many heroes. And there's no place for a maximum sized group to go in order to find a tough and rewarding battle.
In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.
Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.
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OK, two +4 bosses is too many for soloing--but even con minions should NEVER be much of a challenge to a 38th level character. That destroys the feeling of finally becoming a true superhero. I'm a superhero--I should be in over my head. That's how the fights should become challenging. Increase the possible mission level spawns.
In fact, this was obviously what you were thinking earlier. You mentioned a mission difficult slider. You've commented on hunting higher level mobs for a challenge. There's nothing wrong with either of those ideas.
Furthermore, if you make a +4 MOB impossible then you destroy the 1-5 level group gap you thought was neccessary. So the range of players we can team with becomes once again more restrictive.
Also, I don't understand why a designer wouldn't WANT players hunting over their level. Hey, if I die fighting +3s I can't come to you and say, "this power isn't workign as well as it should!" Because you can always say, "Hey, we make it POSSIBLE for you to fight +3s because that's what you said you prefered over very beefed up mobs. If you hunt the higher levels and die, well, that's the breaks. Hunt even cons if you want to feel more powerful!"
Finally, if you're going to somehow do this I must ask: how? Because it seems to me there would have to be a blanket nerf over every character in the game. Or maybe making it so every scrapper can be two-shotted by even con minions (the blasters will just be unplayable).
Please come up with a new plan because this one will destroy the one aspect of the game that makes me feel superheroic: fighting very powerful cons.
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I've seen a lot of posts from you about how you want us to play the game.
You really, really, want to think carefully about forcing the players to your vision.
This game was a wild success with how it played, even if it wasn't precisely what you wanted. I've seen a few games (Anarchy Online for instance) where the players weren't playing it to the developers vision, so "changes" were made that actually made the game less fun (part of the reason I'm here and not there any more).
The path you're currently going down: nerfing everyone or buffing mobs until we're firmly in your "kill 3 whites", travel as a group to the contact/mission is pretty scary. I don't think that game would be as much FUN as the one I got at release.
It might be better to set ego aside, look at how your players WANT to play the game (not at how YOU want them to play it), and build content/design around that.
Well, just my .02, I'd hate to see what happened to AO happen to CoH.
Kruschev
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A sad world of assumptions, you don't know statesman at all!
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I've seen a lot of posts from you about how you want us to play the game.
You really, really, want to think carefully about forcing the players to your vision.
This game was a wild success with how it played, even if it wasn't precisely what you wanted. I've seen a few games (Anarchy Online for instance) where the players weren't playing it to the developers vision, so "changes" were made that actually made the game less fun (part of the reason I'm here and not there any more).
The path you're currently going down: nerfing everyone or buffing mobs until we're firmly in your "kill 3 whites", travel as a group to the contact/mission is pretty scary. I don't think that game would be as much FUN as the one I got at release.
It might be better to set ego aside, look at how your players WANT to play the game (not at how YOU want them to play it), and build content/design around that.
Well, just my .02, I'd hate to see what happened to AO happen to CoH.
Kruschev
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A sad world of assumptions, you don't know statesman at all!
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In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35.
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I agree with this to an extent, but I wanna add something in here too.
A big appeal of MMOs is taking a character and, by playing, he progresses and gets better. Now some of that can be numerical. At level 5, your lightning bolt does 20 damage. At Level 30, it does 60. You feel stronger, but if average villian hit points have increased from 50 to 150, your progression is kinda an illusion. Or maybe your damage resistance goes from 25% to 50%, but villian damage has doubled. It's like a treadmill, as you get stronger so does everything else so it feels like you're getting no where.
A way to counteract that is to make your character feel better non-numerically: He doesnt' have to stop as often for a break, he can take larger groups of foes at one time, he attains new dynamic abilities that let him do things he couldn't before, like a travel power, or an area affect attack.
Now, I agree, characters get far too good as it is now. But if you stick strictly to "Hero can take 3 minions" that's going to dissatisify a lot of people. Many will think "Why should I work to make myself 'stronger', when I'm not going to *Feel* stronger, since fundamentally I can only still do the same challenges that I did at level 5?"
The solution is to change the nature of challenges you face (And the game does this to an extent). For example, as heroes get stronger, they can conceivably battle groups of five or six minions instead of three. Okay, but now the minions aren't so stupid. They call in friend, they hunt you down in the warehouse and ambush you, they use tactics. Thus, you feel *stronger* but not like you're running in place.
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Actually, it's not that imaginitive.
It was stated that minion hp would increase by roughly 30% and that the xp would scale with it. That would seem to imply at MOST a 30% increase to minion xp. The xp might not even scale on a 1 to 1 basis with the minion hp.
Now, if the current better builds are relegated to fighting off 3 whites as a challenge, that is going to be *roughly* 10% of the xp they were getting prior to issue 2.
Therefore, while having no psychic ability, it would seem reasonable given the developers stated direction with the game, that the end result would be this.
Man, I actually consider myself a fanboy for this game and give some pretty glowing reviews when I get asked about it. I'm nothing compared to your blind flaming & demeaning of any suggestion that something won't be done right.
Cause, we all know Ignite was "fixed" so that it was still a good power. Oh.. wait... nm...
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Very nice, but it's ALL speculation. You said they WILL do this. However, you have no way of knowing that they WILL do it unless you have some nifty precognative abilities...
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Ok.. fine nitpick me.. I'll change it to..
"if he does exactly what he says with no tweaking, this will be the result"
Happier now? I admit its unlikely to happen this way in the end, but one of the reasons its unlikely is because people like me will point out cause & effect, not because we sat quiety by hoping for the best 
I believe Statesman has addressed his concerns over the exp issue several times - Be it in a group, doing missions (which has been partially solved with the new update), or the issue of reward for fighting +2 cons over +4-5 cons. The man with the plan is aware of the issue and intends to do something about it in the (hopefully) near future. Give them time guys. Patience is a virtue.
I really don't get how being able to take down mobs that are far more powerful than when you were starting out in itself doesn't make you feel more powerful and like a superhero. You mean taking on a mob that's throwing psionic attacks that would floor a fledgeling hero, much less an average person, doesn't make you feel super? At higher levels, even the minions are super, and it takes a superhero to fight them. That should be enough to make you feel like a superhero. Why does it require fighting back a zergling rush to feel like a superhero?
Fine, here's an idea, then: If you don't want minions to pose a challenge, then they shouldn't give xp. XP is, after all, a reward for the challenge you face. If it's not a real challenge, why are you being rewarded?
I think you're a bit confused. When you're talking about what you seem to think minions are, you're describing what more appropriately fits the idea of an underling... Underlings are the flunkies that are there to slow your blads/blasts/whatever down with their bodies.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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35 as it was at lv 15, will make it so that I'll never have the oppurtunity to feel more powerful as I grow/level.
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Sorry, but being able to take down a mob at level 35 that would have 1-shot killed you at level 5 doesn't make you feel more powerful?
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No. It's a relative power issue, not a direct one.
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What the hell is that supposed to mean? You are more powerful at level 35 than you were at level 5. But you're not fighting the same foes anymore. You're fighting more powerful foes. The foes you are fighting at level 35 would have wiped the floor with you. You're now powerful enough to take them down. That's being more powerful. End of story. No made-up spin doctored terminology can change that. If you don't feel more powerful being able to one-shot bosses that posed a challenge 30 levels ago, then you never will.
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Direct power is: I shot a level 30 mob at level 5 and he killed me with one shot. I came back at level 30 and wiped the floor with him.
Relative power is this: at level 5 I killed 3 white minions. At level 30, if I can still only kill 3 white minions, my power relative to what it was at 5 and towards the environment has not grown at all.
A lot of people, including myself, really like the relative power vs environment growth the game has.
Hopefully, that clears it up for you
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Ok.. fine nitpick me.. I'll change it to..
"if he does exactly what he says with no tweaking, this will be the result"
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If memory serves, he said xp would be adjusted "appropriately" and that he wants to maintain the current levelling rate. Your speculation doesn't reflect an "appropriate" xp adjustment. Once again, you're assuming. Your speculation doesn't match "exactly what he says with no tweaking". It reflects chicken-little naysaying.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Sorry, but being able to take down a mob at level 35 that would have 1-shot killed you at level 5 doesn't make you feel more powerful?
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Not really.
At any given level, why would I ever feel more powerful if I can only ever reasonably fight the same number of foes? I don't "feel" the difference in power. I don't defeat things faster or in larger numbers. I am static in power in the environment in which I operate. Sure, my power level changes, but I am now moving to new environments where I cancel that change.
In today's CoH, there is a slow increase in effectiveness relative to your environment - at least agasint certain foes. This contributes to two things: you feel more powerful, and for some, the game becomes too easy.
I see three things in this game that determine mob difficulty:
1) Power sets. How many powers does the mob have? Can it fly? Or stun? Or heal itself or its allies?
2) Hit points. Hit points scale with level for heroes and villians. Damage scales with level also. Broadly speaking, this is a zero-sum game. It still takes my Scrapper or Blaster 3 shots with my early attack powers to kill a white minion, even though those attacks do around 250-300% of the damage they did when I got them
3) Level differential. There is a penalty for attacking things higher level than you and a bonus for attacking things lower level. When combined, this makes attacking (really) high-level foes dangerous because you suck against them and they rock against you.
The impression I'm getting is that it's 1) and 2) that are at the heart of the change that's being planned. You see, we heroes get more and more powers, and often they are more and more damaging. We get to do our low-level damage, scaled by advancement and SOs, PLUS additional attacks that may do even more damage per attack.
If the enemies are given powers that enhance their survivability, and perhaps more hit points, fights will last longer in the face of this addtional damage.
But carrying on some variation of a fight with three guys, over and over and over, for 50 levels...that seems static to me. Yes the fights may be much more interesting than they are today, and I'm sure that will help, but we're talking about doing this sort of thing literally tens of thousands of times to get to level 50.
While I understand there is a very precarious balance to strike, I personally like the current "feel" where I can take on more and more or higher and higher level foes. But of course only to a point - and that is what Statesman is trying to address. I'm not sure I'll like his solution, but I'm throwing my thoughts on the matter out there.
If I never say anything, after all, my opinion might not be considered,
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I thought I'd post here to explain why developers make changes to MMP games. In a nutshell: because they think it'll make the long term enjoyment better.
Human nature often demands immediate gratification. Sometimes, this comes into conflict with the long term enjoyment.
Case in point: much of our zone distribution, spawn placement and mission difficulty is based on a simple supposition. Players should be entertained/challenged by mobs -2 to +2 levels different. A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard - a single -2 minion should be pretty easy. But that's the range that much of the game hangs on. And that works great for levels 1 to 20, in my opinion.
Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes. The missions cease to be entertaining, because a +1 mobs are just too easy. Better XP can be found by taking on +4 mobs in zones. Single characters can take on spawns that are intended for many heroes. And there's no place for a maximum sized group to go in order to find a tough and rewarding battle.
In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.
Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.
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Will you adjust xp? If so how much? I fight +4s only because my Invul/ss tanker takes so lon, to fight anything else would be a complete waste of time.( still is actually)
I understand that I will have fun battling the minions, but the real fun for me was getting to those enhancement slots and new powers. Those come easier in the early levels. Of course, this goes back to my "Its way to time consuming for me to level 30+" argument.