Statesman: Please don't make this mistake
By
123456789,
Posted on: 2004-09-15 07:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Yet another person who is a victim of selective illiteracy?
Hello? XP for them is going up commensurate with risk and HP.
My gods, what are some of you smoking?!
*sighs*
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Because they're STRONGER foes. They would have wiped you out a few levels earlier. What's so hard to grasp about this?
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You should seriously consider taking a step back to calm down. I am NOT required to agree with you. If you don't like the fact that I do not agree with you, you are not required to read my posts. Feel free to ignore me - I'm strongly considering ignoring you based on the attitute you are projecting.
To me, a white con minion is a white con minion is a white con minion. I could care absolutely zero that at level 20 I can obliterate a level one minion into little motes of dust. That means nothing to me because I now face new level 20 minions. I do not feel "more powerful". I gain nothing from obliterating lower level foes. My only effect on the game (which is basically on my character) comes from those foes who are my level (give or take). Thus, my "sense" of power comes from how many of those I can defeat at once.
I like SheckyS' post about levels. He's right - mob con is an illusion. But mob quantity is not, at least not in the same way. There is both a quantitative and qualitative "improvement" in the ability to defeat larger numbers of mobs. Given that our goal is to defeat enemies there is no possible context for which it is not superior to defeat more at once. If the game is balanced such that we can no longer do that, we will feel static.
You are not required to agree or even accept this. But it is a fact that many people feel this way.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Regardless, it is way too extreme. The ONE thing in this game which was comic book like in this game was wading through even level minions--once I was in my thirties, of course.
Don't take that away! A "minion" shouldn't be the same problem for a 30th level characer--and certianly not for a 40th level character--as it is for a 1st.
By all means, tone down our ability to solo +4 bosses. But don't remove the very real sense that our powers are increasing.
Otherwise, I will feel as wimpy at 50th as I do at 1st. I just have more powers to feel wimpy with.
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Ok I disagree whole heartedly with what you people call heroic!
You don't want heroes you want gods. This aint that game.
And a L40 minion is NOT the same as a L1 minion. A L40 minion should compare similarly to a L40 hero the same way a L1 hero does to a L1 hero. Minion is simply their status in their organization. A L40 anything is still L40 tough, minions just don't have as many special powers, so they "should" be easier compared to an enhanced super hero. But thats doesn't mean you should be "wading through them". If you want to wade through stuff, you should be wading through -2 level minions.
And if you wade through something, you SHOULD NOT be getting great exp for that. Anything you can 1 shot or kill without risk should net you negligable exp at best.
Heroism is about overcoming odds, not stacking them in your favor them showing your *** when you "win". You people make heroism seem tritte and insignificant!
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Now here's the kicker: at the pace I'm going, its going to to take me nearly 10 hours to get through this level solo streetsweeping. In my mind, this is already too slow
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Thing is, this is pretty fast for post mid-point levelling in an MMOG... This ain't Diablo.
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Shhhh... Too many want this to be a comic book version of D2 or CS... Or worse. Both.
The plain and simple fact is, if this were "real world" the villains wouldn't really be going up in power (i.e.; you wouldn't find "minions" of your relative power level late in your spandex career).
The compensation the game makes for making you have to fight more and more villains as you level is to make it so you fight fewer, but tougher, villains.
The same piddly minions of the Joker are the same relative power to Batman as Penguin's minions are... As Batman learned more and more tricks, got more anmd more "powerful", was he able to beat more and more of the Joker's and Penguin's minions? No...their minions seemed to get smarter and more powerful too.
Superhero and schoolyard bully don't seem to be the way to go, imho...
And let's not forget the lag issue, if they made minions diminished power vs heroes as they went up...can you imagine having to fight 500+ minions at once with an 8-man group to advance xp?! Dayum... Give me 3 MUCH tougher minions and more experience for overcoming them any day.
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Now here's the kicker: at the pace I'm going, its going to to take me nearly 10 hours to get through this level solo streetsweeping. In my mind, this is already too slow
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And this is the core of the problem.
Some of you come from single player games where you expect to beat the game in 100 hours of playtime...
This aint that genre. 10 hours per level is VERY generous for MMOs and a pace that only gets steeper as you level.
If you don't like that then the genre might not suite you.
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I'm not a leveling junkie. I don't street sweep or go around in circles fighting the same set of groups because they give me 20% more XP because of the group size. (Well, maybe I do that once a week).
But with two toons at level 36, it will be impossible to level fighting 3 white minions! (period).
I thought going from 36 to 37 would take forever (and I play 4 hours a day everyday) - forcing me to get same level minion-class XP will just force me to play only alts or skip to another game (ack - can't believe I said that).
Even if you up the reward - this is still a really painful leveling process post 35.
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You'd be suprised what you could do if you didn't focus on it so darn much,
I spent around 2-3 hour just running around doing missions last Saturday. I wasn't even thinging about exp, and look up and I'd gained 2 bubbles in L40... And I wasn't methodically street sweeping, or doing portals, or any of that... just casually running around doing my missions, stweet sweeping when neccessary, chatting with SG at times... etc... I enjoyed the time and hey, the exp was cool to. A few days of that and I'll level, Doing that once a week and I'll level sometime next month... but thats all depending on where I put my time...
That said, there are some nice exp changes on test, and I dare say that my 2-3 hours would have gotten quite a bit more exp if I'd been playing my test char.
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Because they're STRONGER foes. They would have wiped you out a few levels earlier. What's so hard to grasp about this?
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You should seriously consider taking a step back to calm down. I am NOT required to agree with you. If you don't like the fact that I do not agree with you, you are not required to read my posts. Feel free to ignore me - I'm strongly considering ignoring you based on the attitute you are projecting.
To me, a white con minion is a white con minion is a white con minion. I could care absolutely zero that at level 20 I can obliterate a level one minion into little motes of dust. That means nothing to me because I now face new level 20 minions. I do not feel "more powerful". I gain nothing from obliterating lower level foes. My only effect on the game (which is basically on my character) comes from those foes who are my level (give or take). Thus, my "sense" of power comes from how many of those I can defeat at once.
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Thing is, this isn't a matter of opinion. At level 20, you are more powerful than you were at level 1. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. You're choosing to be blind to the fact that you're taking on more powerful foes. You are creating a false illusion for yourself.
Yet again, I ask: How does being able to take down a foe that would have OBLITERATED you at level 1 not feel more powerful? People aren't answering this. They're skating around the question. The closest thing I've gotten to an answer as to why they feel they need to take down MORE foes instead of more powerful ones is "It's cooler". That's not really an answer, that's just re-stating the perception I was asking for an explaination for.
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I like SheckyS' post about levels. He's right - mob con is an illusion.
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No, he's not right. Mob con is supposed to be a reflection of it's power.
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But mob quantity is not, at least not in the same way.
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.....you just gave reason to ignore mob con and go hunt higher numbers of lower level mobs to feel powerful. After all, con is just an illusion....
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Given that our goal is to defeat enemies there is no possible context for which it is not superior to defeat more at once.
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Except possibly the "out of character" concept that the game's not a challenge if you can wade through them like they're nothing and, thus, not as much fun.
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You are not required to agree or even accept this. But it is a fact that many people feel this way.
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It's also a fact that many people don't think Smoke Grenade is overpowered as it is on Live right now. Doesn't make them right.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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The same piddly minions of the Joker are the same relative power to Batman as Penguin's minions are... As Batman learned more and more tricks, got more anmd more "powerful", was he able to beat more and more of the Joker's and Penguin's minions? No...their minions seemed to get smarter and more powerful too.
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This doesn't really fit the game though, because it is an MMO. Batman in CoH would eventually be approximately as powerful as Superman (tanker?)or Green Lantern (blaster?), because he would get to level 50 with them.
The only paralells you can draw to the game mechanic, and I'm pushing it here, are things like new heroes still coming into their powers - a common theme in the X-men for a while as they picked up "newbie" mutant. As the character comes into their powers, they often do get more and more powerful and in fact can come to mop the floor with dozens of bad guys.
This is where Drayvis' perspective comes in. In the comic those dozens of baddies were all level one, and the mutant is now level 10 or 15. But unlike in a comic, we have no reason to mess with level 1 villians.
The organizations or whatever that we oppose in the loose game world literally have no level 1 minions, or none that we ever face. We only ever face baddies of our current level or there abouts. That is what we are presented with and the only way we gain XP. So, in that context, it feels more powerful to face more of those than the same amount.
BTW, at this point I'm just trying to explain this perspective - not fight for it in the game. I said my peace along that line and once is enough. 
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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And there's also quite a difference in politely debating vs being an overt flaming a$$hat like you always prefer being.
I agree with some of the points you make, but your delivery is 'teh suck!'
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Eh, I'm not really here to make friends, and I learned about a decade ago that polite debating bounces off 90% of internet users, especially on message boards. 
Drayvis is keeping his head on straight in the face of a lot of silliness. Here's a tip folks, the COLOR of the mob is TOTALLY ARBITRARY. Would it make you feel better if they didn't tell you what level the mobs were, and after the patch whites were yellow, yellows were orange, oranges were red, etc.?
The important thing is that the game is challenging and rewarding. If you're being challenged, and rewarded appropriately for overcoming those challenges, I don't understand what difference it makes if the guys' names are white, brown, purple, pink, or aquamarine.
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Thing is, this isn't a matter of opinion. At level 20, you are more powerful than you were at level 1. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. You're choosing to be blind to the fact that you're taking on more powerful foes. You are creating a false illusion for yourself.
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And what you are absoulutely refusing to accept is that that relative level of power has no effect on the game and is not in any way related to anything we do to progress our position in the game - i.e. our level. We are not exposed to it. It does not enter into our game experience. Ergo we do not give a damn about it.
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Yet again, I ask: How does being able to take down a foe that would have OBLITERATED you at level 1 not feel more powerful? People aren't answering this.
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I answered this in my previous post.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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And what you are absoulutely refusing to accept is that that relative level of power has no effect on the game and is not in any way related to anything we do to progress our position in the game - i.e. our level. We are not exposed to it. It does not enter into our game experience. Ergo we do not give a damn about it.
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Uhh, what? It enters into my game experience every day. If I can't take a group of enemies in a particular area, I'll go gain a level, then come back and try again.
Do I feel like I have accomplished "less" because the enemies are now "white" instead of "yellow?" No, they are the same enemies that handed me my a$$ a few hours ago, and now I'm back to pay them a visit. It makes me feel great. Like, oh, I don't know... I've GOTTEN MORE POWERFUL.
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I gain nothing from obliterating lower level foes. My only effect on the game (which is basically on my character) comes from those foes who are my level (give or take). Thus, my "sense" of power comes from how many of those I can defeat at once.
I like SheckyS' post about levels. He's right - mob con is an illusion. But mob quantity is not, at least not in the same way. There is both a quantitative and qualitative "improvement" in the ability to defeat larger numbers of mobs. Given that our goal is to defeat enemies there is no possible context for which it is not superior to defeat more at once. If the game is balanced such that we can no longer do that, we will feel static.
You are not required to agree or even accept this. But it is a fact that many people feel this way.
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Isn't there a basic flaw of logic in this argument. I'm tired I might be missing something ... but if the mobs are readjusted so that someone who takes on 3 reds now can only handle 3 whites and the XP goes with Statesman's risk = reward thing, then doesn't everyone win?
Can't you just fight 10 blues or greens (dependent on how the exp scales) to feel the same way you used to against whites (and get the same exp)? Remember that both their challenge and exp value will have gone up too.
Is it really just a colour issue? Even if the reality of the situation changes will fighting blues feel wimpy to you no matter what?
Let's say that the the XP doesn't scale exactly like that, but you still get more XP from a future white than you currently do. Then when you fight a higher level foe you'll get even more exp than you do now, it'll just be harder. When you group it will mitigate the dreaded purple patch.
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And a L40 minion is NOT the same as a L1 minion. A L40 minion should compare similarly to a L40 hero the same way a L1 hero does to a L1 hero.
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I respectfully disagree with you Sir..
Lvl 40 minions should not be similarly difficult as they were to you at level 1 otherwise this is just EQ in tights.
IMHO minions should only pose a real threat to Heros in significan't numbers. There has to be a feeling of power in COH other than bottom feeding. I don't find fighting mobs -2 levels to me Heroic at all.
Conversley Bosses should be more difficult though.. After all they are Bosses.
Icarus_Factor and numspha, I am only referring to this in the context of Drayvis' reference to extremely grey foes. Obviously high-con foes have huge relevance.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Isn't there a basic flaw of logic in this argument. I'm tired I might be missing something ... but if the mobs are readjusted so that someone who takes on 3 reds now can only handle 3 whites and the XP goes with Statesman's risk = reward thing, then doesn't everyone win?
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It works out fine. All I'm pointing out is defeating 4 or 5 white con minions "feels" more heroic.
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Can't you just fight 10 blues or greens (dependent on how the exp scales) to feel the same way you used to against whites (and get the same exp)? Remember that both their challenge and exp value will have gone up too.
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Sure. But why would I? Today it makes sense to fight whites (or higher). But the XP and the "basis" set by the (currently miscalibrated) con colors tells me that white is my baseline. Fighting at that current (miscalibrated) baseline feels really fun because it is easier than one of the same foes were 10 levels ago.
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Is it really just a colour issue? Even if the reality of the situation changes will fighting blues feel wimpy to you no matter what?
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Probably. I'm not arguing that this does not have a strong psychological component.
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Let's say that the the XP doesn't scale exactly like that, but you still get more XP from a future white than you currently do. Then when you fight a higher level foe you'll get even more exp than you do now, it'll just be harder. When you group it will mitigate the dreaded purple patch.
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And I think that those things tell us it's likely to work this way. But who knows, if we point this out, maybe Cryptic will let there be some creep in the minion count a hero can defeat safely but LTs and Bosses will be something you really want to stick to same-level.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Lvl 40 minions should not be similarly difficult as they were to you at level 1 otherwise this is just EQ in tights.
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Yah... okay. I realize "EQ in tights," is like a little buzz-phrase and it's cool to throw it around, but are you serious?
Listen, it's quite simple -- if you are wading through mob after mob of RED con minions, then they're just going to reduce the XP reward you get for winning against them. Would that be preferable?
I don't understand what you expect.
Something is too hard for you. You level. Now you can kill it. That's called becoming more powerful. If it's the "pretty colors" that do it for you, then just imagine that "white" means "hard," and you should be okay.
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Thing is, this isn't a matter of opinion. At level 20, you are more powerful than you were at level 1. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. You're choosing to be blind to the fact that you're taking on more powerful foes. You are creating a false illusion for yourself.
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And what you are absoulutely refusing to accept is that that relative level of power has no effect on the game and is not in any way related to anything we do to progress our position in the game - i.e. our level. We are not exposed to it. It does not enter into our game experience. Ergo we do not give a damn about it.
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So, you're saying you NEVER see or hear about high level mobs at level 1? And you NEVER see or hear about low level mobs at level 30+?
Relative power? You're trying to compare how powerful you are at level 30+ to how powerful you were at level 1. That's relative power. How do you guage your power? You look at the power of the foes you're fighting. For an accurate comparison, you have to compare to the SAME foes. The only "relative power" is you now vs you then. You're wanting to feel more powerful, but refusing to accept something that is solid proof that you ARE more powerful.
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Yet again, I ask: How does being able to take down a foe that would have OBLITERATED you at level 1 not feel more powerful? People aren't answering this.
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I answered this in my previous post.
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No, you didn't. Or was that statement that boiled down to "because I say so" supposed to qualify as an answer?
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Lvl 40 minions should not be similarly difficult as they were to you at level 1 otherwise this is just EQ in tights.
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Oh, please. There are tons of factos that make this different from EQ in tights. If that's the best argument you can come up with, you lose.
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IMHO minions should only pose a real threat to Heros in significan't numbers. There has to be a feeling of power in COH other than bottom feeding. I don't find fighting mobs -2 levels to me Heroic at all.
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But if the -2 mobs will be just as powerful as the even mobs are now, how is it more heroic to be fighting the even mobs now? I mean, the same challenge is there. Same risk. Same reward.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Icarus_Factor and numspha, I am only referring to this in the context of Drayvis' reference to extremely grey foes. Obviously high-con foes have huge relevance.
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*Scratches his head* When did I ever say jack s*** about extremely grey foes?
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
Two things: you will slow down XP gain. Fighting mobs just for the hell of it gets old. Take away the economic incentive, and you remove the reason for doing it. I have killed thousands and thousands of mobs of all different kinds. It's really not "fun" anymore, unless I'm getting "paid".
Secondly, you forget that one of the most important things about superheroes is that they are often ABLE to take out masses of enemies. What you are saying is that a level 50 blaster should have as much trouble with a level 50 skull as with a level 1 did with a lvl 1 skull. That's absurd in my opinion, because it COMPLETELY removes one of the most "fun" elements of this game: getting more powerful. If I am no more effective at level 50 against even cons than I was at lvl 1, why even level up? To fight different-looking mobs?
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I'm not a leveling junkie. I don't street sweep or go around in circles fighting the same set of groups because they give me 20% more XP because of the group size. (Well, maybe I do that once a week).
But with two toons at level 36, it will be impossible to level fighting 3 white minions! (period).
I thought going from 36 to 37 would take forever (and I play 4 hours a day everyday) - forcing me to get same level minion-class XP will just force me to play only alts or skip to another game (ack - can't believe I said that).
Even if you up the reward - this is still a really painful leveling process post 35.
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...and you know this for a fact because....? You've tried it? You have advanced knowledge of how it's going to work? Man...I want your connections.
Hint #1: You're completely clueless how it WILL work... You are just so resistant to change, and what, to me, sounds like improvement, that you'll make wild claims without even seeing what it's like...
Nice...
"Assume"
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Woah there - off the high horse and put the soap box up. I'm just stating what it is for me here and now. There is no design as of yet on test. So before it gets on test (and even when it IS on test) - there is the opportunity to influence the devs. I was simply stated my opinion. I did not state or suggest that this is the case for everyone, at any given time, or with every build. Mileage will VARY!
I said "...forcing me to..." - this would be ME, not YOU.
And as Statesman has said, as Risk increases - so will your XP. That makes sense and I'm sorry he didn't mention it earlier as I wasn't the only one to express concern.
Thank you and have a nice day.
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What you are saying is that a level 50 blaster should have as much trouble with a level 50 skull as with a level 1 did with a lvl 1 skull. That's absurd in my opinion, because it COMPLETELY removes one of the most "fun" elements of this game: getting more powerful.
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Self-contradictory statements are fun kids!
I went from fighting well against Level 1s to fighting well against Level 50s, but I didn't get any more powerful!
Tell me... how?
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If I am no more effective at level 50 against even cons than I was at lvl 1, why even level up?
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The point is being more effective at fighting level 50 mobs than you were at level 1.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Two things: you will slow down XP gain.
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XP will be boosted along with mob difficulty, the goal being to keep the levelling rate the same. Try reading more of his posts on the topic.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Now here's the kicker: at the pace I'm going, its going to to take me nearly 10 hours to get through this level solo streetsweeping. In my mind, this is already too slow
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Thing is, this is pretty fast for post mid-point levelling in an MMOG... This ain't Diablo.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint