Statesman: Please don't make this mistake
By
123456789,
Posted on: 2004-09-15 07:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Going to have to street sweep a couple of hours to work this dbl death off I got within 20 seconds thanks to the Dark rezzor bringing me back in the middle of combat.
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Debt is no big deal... you don't have to work off debt before you level. Yes debt makes leveling slower. But no big deal.
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Well I gave up on missions cause they were easy too easy or too hard and not worth the time invested vs the streets
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You haven't gotten far enough into the game to get any of the good story line arcs. Let's just say the 5th column and lost become very interesting. I even hit an arc where COT where the "good guys." In issue two, mission xp is greatly increased.
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This Power is best so folks use it, okay now this is the bes power so we use it, okay now this, now this and so on. So now folks cant use certain powers to get by, they will have to combo it up or develop "strategy" according to some.
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You say you created characters that fit your style time and social patterns, If this is true why are you worried about the best power to use. Also playing 7 characters occassionally will not get any of them levelel quickly. If you only play 5-10 hours a week, I would pick one character and play him/her. Especially, if you are worried about leveling and not worried about fun. Which sounds like what you are interested in since you only street grind.
I have four characters (two of which are under 10). I play one regularly. I have been only playing him for the last month. I retired my first character,Sam, because the style of play didn't feel right. I may bring her back out of retirement once Marshall gets to 50, or I will start playing one of the other 2 characters which I keep around to group with.
Marshal Wagner BS/SR Level 50
Mistress Delight Drk/Drk Level 50
Golden Coy EL/EL Level 42
Helreginn's Hammer WH/WP Level 42
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Volt,
You seen how many changes were made in response to player
levelling styles, haven't you ?
Be honest, is the trend toward or away from power gaming ? [/quote
I don't know that it is a trend either way. A change in a power, like SG for example, will slow powergamers who play multiple hours using it. It will slow the casual gamer who uses it down too, making their pursuit of levels and advancement longer. So at one time it is against powerleveling, but also slows advancement for all. Powergamers will find another way to advance quickly. The casual gamer with that build (or any other that is changed to slow the powergamers down) will find their gameplay much more affected.
And I agree that some fixes need to be made. But you can only take so many recalls on your car for fixes, before you decide to trade it in and buy another model 
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2, you didn't witness anything that occurred so your "theories"
regarding what occurred are even more "assinine", and ignorant,
than mine.
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I like how "we're in the same boat," but sneakily my theories somehow ended up "even more" asinine than yours.
Anyway, I use relatively common sense and my own experience in the industry to make a comparatively well-educated guess that the developers, a group of professionals directing the fate of a multi-million dollar project which provides them and probably many others with income and therefore livelihood, are not making decisions based on the rants and raves of a FRACTION of 1% of their customers.
To get where they are, they would already have to be much smarter than that.
You on the other hand, well... lets just say you don't have to pass any tests to get an account and post on the forums. 
Vege I honestly think they (cryptic) are trying to strike a balance..
#1 They're trying to reign in the FOTM builds.
#2 It looks as though they're working on making grouping more desirable.
#3 They are looking into fixing AT's that clearly have broken powers.
#4 Statesman also said that soloing for ALL classes will remain an option.
Untill the devs prove me wrong, I believe them.
While I might not agree with the techniques, I do believe Cryptic is commited to making this game fun for all.
Casual and Powergamer.
Cryptic has also shown they're not afraid to admit being wrong and quickly make adjustments.
That says allot.
Right, but if you don't get any stronger at all, what's the point of even playing?
I mean, if you're still fighting the same number of mobs over and over again like you were at level 1, that's just not fun. 
NOT to mention the fact that not all people are Scrappers/Tankers with sufficient defensive capabilities to take on the stronger mobs.
Making mobs harder is going to cripple just about anyone who isn't.
IMO, even level minions, even 3 of them, should not be anywhere near a Superhero in strength.
I thought I'd post here to explain why developers make changes to MMP games. In a nutshell: because they think it'll make the long term enjoyment better.
Human nature often demands immediate gratification. Sometimes, this comes into conflict with the long term enjoyment.
Case in point: much of our zone distribution, spawn placement and mission difficulty is based on a simple supposition. Players should be entertained/challenged by mobs -2 to +2 levels different. A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard - a single -2 minion should be pretty easy. But that's the range that much of the game hangs on. And that works great for levels 1 to 20, in my opinion.
Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes. The missions cease to be entertaining, because a +1 mobs are just too easy. Better XP can be found by taking on +4 mobs in zones. Single characters can take on spawns that are intended for many heroes. And there's no place for a maximum sized group to go in order to find a tough and rewarding battle.
In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.
Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.
#1 They're trying to reign in the FOTM builds.
The level of reigning in that is needed is up for debate. Ignite is now the worst power in AR - they should look at how many AR blasters since they "fixed" it have the power. They tend to overnerf, like all companies, and sometimes they bring something back up but sometimes they dont.
#2 It looks as though they're working on making grouping more desirable.
Unforutunately, they're doing it by bring DOWN the soloability attractiveness considerably, while raising those who have issues solo'ing slightly.
#3 They are looking into fixing AT's that clearly have broken powers.
As they should be doing, unfortunately some power combo's will always appear "broken" and there will always be a "best" power that needs "fixed"
#4 Statesman also said that soloing for ALL classes will remain an option.
Yes, but I shudder to think about the xp I would get off -1 and even con mobs in order to solo from 35-40. Solo'ing as an option is not the same thing as soloing as a viable means of advancing in the game.
One quick question Statesman, what about the Defenders and Controllers that ALREADY have a hard time with mobs?
How would these changes affect them?
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How is everyone elses SG doing?
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Good thanks. We get new members everyday and the members that we have play on a regular basis. We have at least 20-30 members log in every day.
Part of running a good SG is realizing that attrition will take its toll and that you need to ALWAYS be recruiting. Every group I am in and every new person that I meet I am always thinking, how can I get this good player into my SG?
Nice post, States. But...
If I'm supposed to be challenjed by 3 white minions, Why do i have to face 5-9 at once in a solo mission? And why are they (post 30) worth piddling experience if i'm going to risk my life fighting them?
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A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard - a single -2 minion should be pretty easy.
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So where in that does a +2 Boss fall? Impossible? AV? Instant Death? We're still going to be facing their like in missions, after all. (Rikti changes scare me the most about this - a pair of 31 bosses nailed my 30 hero for about 1000 damage on test. Regeneration scrapper, and yes, with tough and resilience. And yes, i died instantly. Granted, I probably have no business doing 2 red bosses at once, but if i can't even react to their attacks, then they're a wee bit overboard, being only 1 level above me.)
So a +2 minion is going to be a tough fight? god forbid we ever feel like superheroes, eh...
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
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A Developer who doesn't take the suggestions of it's customers into account is being foolish....Period.
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A few threads crying out for nerfs on the forums hardly qualifies as the "suggestions of the customers," in this case. You must keep in mind, as I'm sure the developers always do, that the forum community represents a small fraction of the player population, and those crying for nerfs a small fraction of THAT community.
Rest assured, the developers make decisions based on many, many things quite probably the least of which is what the issue-of-the-day is on the forums. The "Nerf War" is a fabrication. It gives people a focus for their anger, something to point the finger at and say, "There! That's the reason why I'm so mad." It's a self-fueling myth, new people come to the forums and read the rants of old people who have read the rants of even older people, and pass down the lie that the developers are at their keyboards, ever-watchful of the forum threads, with the code for the game open in another window, just ready and waiting for the next whiney rant so they can get to work making changes to the game. It's laughably silly when you really think about it, but some people just choose not to. They go on, ranting, flaming and whining until their faces turn blue and their ears turn red and we all press ALT-F4 and boot up the game so we don't have to read their incessant cries of "I was nerfed and it's all your fault!"
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One quick question Statesman, what about the Defenders and Controllers that ALREADY have a hard time with mobs?
How would these changes affect them?
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I think this is a really good question, and it applies to Tankers too.
Also, Statesman had been previously said that levelling rates were pretty much satisfactory. But I don't know anyone in the 30+ game who doesn't level on +2 - +4 level mobs. All things being equal, scaling people back to +0 - +1 is going to net a lot less XP per time unit. Statesman, is this intended as well?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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One quick question Statesman, what about the Defenders and Controllers that ALREADY have a hard time with mobs?
How would these changes affect them?
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When a Blaster can't Alpha Strike a group of 10 +2 Minions, maybe he'll want a Controller or Defender around to make sure he doesn't instantly die to the return volley.
Also, as a level 28 Mind Controller I can say with confidence that Statesman's statement that things get easier after level 22 is true even for what many consider one of the weakest powersets.
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One quick question Statesman, what about the Defenders and Controllers that ALREADY have a hard time with mobs?
How would these changes affect them?
[/ QUOTE ] as a stormie/electricty defender i find soloing is easy
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I thought I'd post here to explain why developers make changes to MMP games. In a nutshell: because they think it'll make the long term enjoyment better.
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Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes.
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This is one of those areas where computer games differ strongly from tabletop RPGs. With (many..I'm talking old-school style) tabletop games, players spend literally years reaching the highest echelons of power. When I was working in tabletop rpg development, one of things that at first really surprised me to learn was that it takes a very long time (years) after a new D&D rules revision to figure out of some of the game elements, like XP progression and advancement, are broken or working as intended. Lord_Recluse would know more about this than I do, though.
While computer games remove some of the human factor (by limiting choices, effect combinations, etc.), they basically go through this same process in a very short amount of time. Most people aren't going to play for years to max out their characters, so character progression is faster. And no matter how well things go in the development stages, there are going to be some unintended occurrences.
In the case of CoH, it's clear that the various power combinations, with SOs in them, have led to some unintended effects, leading to a game that is easier than the designers intended. Unlike with tabletop games, though, the designers can't sit back for months and subtly mold the game at their leisure. They really have to be sharp and on their toes to maintain the integrity of the game.
I don't envy their job (actually, that's a lie) and thank them for making CoH a great game.
[url="http://tinyurl.com/4ylgy"]The Wanderers[/url] of Virtue
We farm fun!
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I thought I'd post here to explain why developers make changes to MMP games. In a nutshell: because they think it'll make the long term enjoyment better.
Human nature often demands immediate gratification. Sometimes, this comes into conflict with the long term enjoyment.
Case in point: much of our zone distribution, spawn placement and mission difficulty is based on a simple supposition. Players should be entertained/challenged by mobs -2 to +2 levels different. A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard - a single -2 minion should be pretty easy. But that's the range that much of the game hangs on. And that works great for levels 1 to 20, in my opinion.
Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes. The missions cease to be entertaining, because a +1 mobs are just too easy. Better XP can be found by taking on +4 mobs in zones. Single characters can take on spawns that are intended for many heroes. And there's no place for a maximum sized group to go in order to find a tough and rewarding battle.
In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.
Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.
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I'd like to give a fairly short response to this, speaking for myself and my rl friends who are either still in game or have recently cancelled.
1. Fighting -2 mobs is seen as a waste of time. The xp rewards are so paltry I'd shudder to even calculate the number I'd have to kill in a small team to level up. When I run around a zone, even if I'm hunting even and +1, I skip these and leave them for hero's who are more appropriate.
2. We considered it FUN that we could take mobs ranging from 0 to +3 with scaling risk vs reward, even solo. Teaming allowed us to fight bosses or take on bigger groups. As one of the "ar/dev" blasters, I NEVER took two +4 bosses, in fact I fairly often died to a +2/3 boss who was smoked.
3. Even my friends who built gimpy characters with poor slots could take on even cons, while better builds could yield better results. This was a great thing!
4. It's not fun to battle 3 white minions at 35. One of the BEST things about this game was, as it went on, you felt more powerful relative to the environment. This is different from most games where you become weaker later and MORE dependent on teams. I think THIS IS THE REASON YOU HAVE BEEN SO SUCCESSFUL.
5. I'm almost afraid to tell you how much stuff will need nerfed to get the better builds to the 3 white minions challenge area.
6. If 3 white minions are ever to be a challenge for a good level 30s character, the xp scale needs rethought, the grind is already pretty ugly, and you're talking about stripping my xp/time rate to about 1/10th.
Thank you for reading and seeing what I was getting at, and bypassing all the people who think this thread is about specific nerfs.
Kruschev
Well I gotta say that Statesman "vision" of the game seems pretty right on the mark!
I think once the game is balanced the way he envisions it, the game will have a much more challenging and rewarding feel to it. Change is always painful and I'm sure there will be lots of complaining while the changes are made. I just think it will be a much better game when it's challenging to play.
Soloing will still be possible, you just won't be soloing huge groups and teams will be better because you can find challenging groups of mobs to take out. When a team needs to have all ATs in it, making the support ATs needed, it'll be a lot more fun for everyone.
One thing I think people forget is as mobs get tougher, xp for those mobs gets better. Risk = reward.
I have no problem with mob difficulty being ramped up, in fact as a Defender and Tanker player I welcome it. My only slight concern is risk vs reward. If mobs become harder to fight I woudl want to see better EXP for them. As is CoH has too slow of a lvling curve for me after about 26. OF course I'm also not an uber AE build.
Were not gonna feel so SUPER HERO like if we can barely take a measly +2 minion lol. Thats funny. I really hope these changes dont screw up the game.
Victory Server
Mastoras L50 Controller Illusion/Force Field - 144 Badges
Apocolypse L32 Defender Empathy/Radiation Blast
Statesman, I agree totally that you need to adjust the game, sometimes significantly, to keep it fun long term.
The point I would like to add is to make sure that risk=reward always. At this time we could argue that risk is not very high, but at the same time advancement is also very slow lvl 40+.
So when you increase the difficulty of the higher end game please also adjust the reward so we still want to go out and take the greater risks.
If you just make it harder their will be the perception that the game is too hard for what you get. Since one of the major (some would argue the only) rewards you get in CoH is character development this could make matter worse instead of fix them.
The reality is the game released at one difficulty level. That difficulty level needs to be changed, but keep in mind the players fell in love with the game as it is today. Changes that only make the game harder may sour the relationship if not balanced with rewards.
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I thought I'd post here to explain why developers make changes to MMP games. In a nutshell: because they think it'll make the long term enjoyment better.
Human nature often demands immediate gratification. Sometimes, this comes into conflict with the long term enjoyment.
Case in point: much of our zone distribution, spawn placement and mission difficulty is based on a simple supposition. Players should be entertained/challenged by mobs -2 to +2 levels different. A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard - a single -2 minion should be pretty easy. But that's the range that much of the game hangs on. And that works great for levels 1 to 20, in my opinion.
Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes. The missions cease to be entertaining, because a +1 mobs are just too easy. Better XP can be found by taking on +4 mobs in zones. Single characters can take on spawns that are intended for many heroes. And there's no place for a maximum sized group to go in order to find a tough and rewarding battle.
In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.
Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.
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my concern is that the xp will not change accordingly since we will be killing less mobs will we also be getting the same amount of xp that we currently get. That would make leveling take way to long in my opinion.
I just hope any changes liek this are considered carefully. Honestly, it scares me to hear that a +2 minion should be REALLY hard. That doesnt sound heroic at all to me. What it does sound like is falling onto the standard RPG trap of only being able to face certain challenges, and needing a specific makeup to do it. The best part of this game is who it deviates from all the other RPGs, in that you actually ARE powerful ( eventually). Noone likes to have thierass kicked by a rat or a lowly skeleton, so when you translate that to Superhero or comic book genre, it sounds like various RPGs in disguise, where the minion is takig the place fo the rat in the dungeon kicking your ***. All we need now is a system requiring people to eat and drink regulary. Bleh. I liek the fact that minions within 2 levels of you are somewhat easy. hell, they are MINIONS. the more you compress the range at which peopel can be effective, the harder it is to find groups, and the harder it is to find targets appropriate to that group. Not to mention this will only slow down leveling even more in the upper levels. I dont think anyone wants that, except for cryptic, who will make more money off of it. This is the best game ive ever played, id hate to see it turn into something it shouldnt be, which is just another fantasy RPG/grind/torture fest in tights and a cape. it appeals much more to the casual player, as it should, and I hope it stays that way.
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In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.
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As a lvl 50 FF def I could not even do the cape mission without help. I failed 3 times on my own!!!
Where is the balance for all ATs when Defs don't have a chance of soloing Rikty Bosses for a irrelevant cape?!?!
STATESMEN said:
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Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes. The missions cease to be entertaining, because a +1 mobs are just too easy.
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Well then REDUCE SO's % buff.
Volt,
You seen how many changes were made in response to player
levelling styles, haven't you ?
Be honest, is the trend toward or away from power gaming ?