I don't feel VIP at all

Forgot Time :O

if they halve the price and double as many people buy it, they at least stay at the same income level, but have twice as many happy customers. If less than double buy, then they've lost ground.

My point is not that I wouldn't buy ever, but at the prices they are charging, consumables aren't worth it. something consumable needs to be really, really cheap to compete with the buffs we can get in play anyhow.

I'm guessing that while I personally don't feel the set prices are low enough, if the devs are only complaining about the purchase rates on consumables, then it seems plenty of people do like the store bought sets. Which is fine by me, I'll buy mine for inf, they buy theirs for cash and we're both happy.

But if the devs solution to "not enough people are paying for this" is to find a way to trick people into buying... That's just silly. Lower the price some and see what happens. They've already paid for the development if the thing exists and is on the store, so any improvemnt is good at that point. I fully expect my price point for consumables is so low I'll never happen and I'm ok with that. I've been happily spending my points on costumes and permanent powers. But if they did somehow get cheap enough to be competitive with inf, the I might pick some up.

The statement wasn't blatant. It was inferred by you, and some others. I don't believe it was ever implied.
If you remove the monthly stipend from the VIP benefits, we STILL get more for our $15 then we did before. Adding the stipend lets us select some of the extras to get alongside those regular subscription benefits.

And your mechanic was capable of fixing your brakes when you were only paying him to fix your transmission, but he was too..... heck, I'm not sure -why- he didn't fix your brakes for free, since he was already working on your car.

They do.

You'd be Premium, so you'd have 2 (total, not per server), plus however many extra slots you'd earned or purchased.

You'd keep them. If you've paid ANYTHING on your account, be it a single purchase of points, or a month's subscription, you have at least one Token beyond the default one. It only takes those two tokens to unlock chat channels.

You'd keep those too, though once every 2 months, you'd have to get a VIP friend to join and pay your rent, or the bases will be locked. Once per 6 weeks if you have things that require power and/or control.

You state this as if it's fact. It isn't. It's your opinion.
As you said earlier (in a part I already clipped out of my quotes. Oops), not everyone is going to agree with you. On this point, I don't. The devs are doing a lot more than they used to. They have a much larger team. Someone has to pay them for that. And before you can multiply $15 by whatever number of subscribers you think they have (because someone will do that) and use that as proof that they're all swimming in Scrooge McDuck's money bin, remember that there's a LOT more to running a business than just wages. Maintaining servers that can run the game is a HUGE expense.

Yep! Clipping the quote makes it easier to reply to you on a point-by-point basis. It also lets me remove the parts that I'm not replying to, so there isn't a wall of text that isn't even relevant to my replies.

Nope! To the best of my ability, I've retained all relevant context in anything I quoted.

However, because you asked so nicely, I'm updating my sig, just for you.

Your paraphrase is not accurate. Before Freedom, your subscription did NOT cover everything the devs put out.

If you did not purchase the CoH Collector's Edition or the Hero Gear kit you did not get access to the Prestige Power Slide, the Cape of the Four Winds or the VIP badge.

When CoV was released, if you already had CoH but did not purchase CoV you had no access to bases, villain AT's, villain zones, villain missions and you only had the base 8 slots per server. Similarly, if you bought CoV but did not purchase CoH you had no access to bases, hero AT's, hero zones, hero missions and you only had the base 8 slots per server. Purchasing BOTH games gave you access to bases and added 4 character slots per server.

If you did not purchase the CoV Collector's Edition you did not get the exclusive Arachnos Chest Symbol or Arachnos Cape Symbol.

If you did not purchase the Good vs Evil Edition (or the GvE Pack from the NCSoft store) you did not get access to the Jump Pack power, the Justice costume set, the Sinister costume set, the Pocket D VIP Pass Teleport Power or the Pocket D VIP Club Gold Member badge.

Then they released the Wedding pack and started offering Super Boosters. If you did not purchase these, you had no access to the costume parts, auras, emotes and powers that were included.

If you did not purchase the Mac Special edition (or the Mac Pack/Valkyrie Pack from the NCSoft Store) you did not get access to the Mission Transporter or the Valkyrie costume set.

When Going Rogue was released, if you did not purchase Going Rogue then you did not have access to Praetoria, the Alignment system, Dual Pistols, Kinetic Melee, Electric Control or Demon Summoning powersets, the Going Rogue costume sets or the GR content that was not part of Issue 18. Also, if you did not purchase Going Rogue you did not have access to Incarnate content that was released prior to Freedom (Incarnate Access was not included with GR, but purchase of GR was a prerequisite for being able to access Incarnate content).

Then their was the Party Pack, the Animal Pack, the Origins Pack and the Steampunk Pack. If you didn't purchase them you got no access to the emotes, auras, costume parts or powers they contained.

That's quite a few things that were not included with the subscription cost before Freedom.

So no, your $15/month did not cover everything the devs put out.

Yes, I clipped something out of your post (an entire paragraph so no context was lost) and pointed out a fallacious and erroneous statement you made, but there was no judgmental tone to my post. It was merely pointing out the errors and fallacies in your paraphrase of the Devs comments.

No, actually they weren't capable of that pace before.

How many new rednames have popped up since Freedom went live? Every one of those new rednames is either a new employee, or someone who got promoted.

The income from subscriptions alone was not enough to pay all those new employees or the increased salaries of those who were promoted. How do I know that? Because they weren't here before the game had extra income from the Freedom business model.

The pace they are releasing new things at now is a direct result of the fact that they have more manpower to work on multiple projects at once.

All these new powersets? The powers department is probably separated into at least 2 teams now, headed up by Synapse and Arbiter Hawk respectively. Before Freedom it was only one team, as evidenced by the fact that we got one or two new powersets at a time, and they were few and far between.

New animations at an increased pace indicates a larger animation department. Same with new zones, new storylines, etc. etc. etc.

Everything we are getting more of before is a result of having more people available to work on it. Prior to Freedom they didn't have the money to PAY all those people.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Seriously? I know a couple of people have replied to this quote, but you really claim this after reading the rest of this thread?

They are providing more stuff now because the new model empowers it.

I really think your face doth protest too much. It's claiming incoming slaps that really just aren't there.

Nobody promised you freedom from marketing or everything free for that $15.

Let's go over this again. You get:

• 192 character slots (12 slots on each of 16 servers) with the ability to buy up to 576 more (36 more on each server), plus a free slot for every year of subscription. On Freemium, you get two slots, plus vet slots, plus any slots you buy. 192-2 = 190. How much do slots cost?
• You get 400-550 Paragon Points for use in purchasing things that don't come free with your sub. Can you buy everything, all at once, without waiting? No. Will you ever have "everything" without spending your own money? No. You were never promised this. And if you expected it, you're nuts.
• You get access to premium content (SSAs) without having to buy them. You get access to premium systems (like Incarnates) that can't be purchased at ANY price.
• You get access to betas so you can help test out new content and get an advanced look at it. This way you can see if something coming down the pipeline is something you want to spend your Paragon Point Stipend on or if it's something you can pass on.
• We get automatic access to a bunch of systems as part of our subscription that either require additional, recurring fees (see mini-subscription) or semi-long-term vet status.
• Etc, etc

Incorrect.
You weren't given access to various Collector's Edition items for free.
Nor were you given access to items in SuperPacks for free.

You seem to be missing the point. That fee, when that's ALL they had to rely on, wasn't generating enough stable revenue to maintain the game at a pace the developers wanted. The fact that the various SuperBoosters sold so well demonstrated that there was a secondary market and that money was being left on the table.

They still have the stable revenue stream in subscriptions.

But they have a new, more volatile (meaning some days/weeks/months it is generating lots of cash, and others it's not generating as much) revenue stream with the cash shop. The cash shop is what's allowing them to hire and keep people to turn out this additional content.

Oh cry me a river. See above. The additional revenue of the cash shop is what's allowing them to turn out the new stuff faster. Check out the Coffee Talks. You'll see a bunch of new artists involved. The additional money brought in by freedom is what allowed these people to be hired.

You're entitled to your own (wrong) opinions. Nobody's disputing that.


The problem is, your opinion is based off incorrect facts. Having someone correct you, or take you to task for your own rudeness for this isn't "tearing you down" or "insulting" you.

That's nice.

To me, you're a bunch of LEDs on a screen. Ones conveying a somewhat rude, self-entitled POV.

What's more, you're coming across as irrational and emotionally overwrought. I've never had much, if any, tolerance for that sort of thing.

There is. But, as with your arguments about the state of the VIP system in the game, you simply haven't done your homework.

So you're griping because Paragon's trying to wrangle additional cash out of you for unnecessary amenities and luxuries?

No offense, but this is a teacup tragedy at worst.


Then it behooves you to be as loquacious as possible to avoid any sort of misunderstandings about your position due to inherent lack of clarity.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Because it's a practice used in making fallacious arguments (see "False Humility").

Complaint + "But I love this game" (or "Hey. But what do I know?") is not a real method for demonstrating moderation or neutral POV.

You first.

Nobody's going to pet the dog for you on portions of your argument they may agree with. They're going to dissect the portions of your argument that they have a beef with (or are just plain wrong).

If you can't handle this, or are incapable of growing a slightly more resistant epidermis, you may want to just drop it.

No. Your feelings and your opinion are your own. Nobody is arguing that.

But, simply because they're your feelings doesn't make them "valid".

I "feel" I should have a corner office with a view, not a McJob. Therefore my feeling is "valid" right?

Never mind that I didn't do the work to warrant being in a corner-office-with-a-view job instead of asking "Would you like fries with that?"

Strength of convction != Strength Of Argument

But you're the one putting forth a complaint.

Telling people to be "Happy happy joy joy" with you when you're complaining, wrongfully, about something based on nothing more than your feelings is straight up bovine feces.

Sorry, but the whole passive-aggressive thing just doesn't work for you.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

Really? You're using the term "slap in the face" on the internet and expecting to be taken seriously?

...looking past that, though...

Where were you for the 7ish years before Freedom? Did you miss all the costume packs that were released? The two expansions with power sets and costume sets exclusive to those expansions? That SUBSTANTIALLY slower rate of costume sets and powers and other such being released?

Ignoring the costume packs and expansions, the subscription was enough before, sure. FOR THE RATE OF CONTENT RELEASE THEN. Content release has been substantially ramped up since release, and specifically because they can fund it via the market now.

I do love how you think that's in the least bit relevant to their responses. The fact that you have reasons you like this game has nothing to do with your complaints being based on misinformation.

Why would we quote things we don't take issue with or otherwise want to comment on?

It's very simple. We quote the parts that are relevant to what we have to say. Your positive comments aren't relevant to what I know that I quoted above in any way, either to support your statements or to support my response to them. As they are irrelevant, there's no value in referring to them.

Wait a second. Are you actually saying that you have no idea how the devs could possibly be making more content now than before, and also don't understand why they have to charge more for some of the content they are making now? You actually think its a coincidence that they make more content now, and charge more for some of it?

Consider my mind officially blown.

It's a wonder he can even operate the computer.

Great visual! Eyes clenched shut, teeth gritted, numbers come squirting out your ears!

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

I'm not surprised he can use a computer. I am kind of shocked (you guys must be so freaking bored) that he can get you to argue with him for 25 pages. Dude needs to play a Tanker, he got Taunt in his bones. lolololololololol

Riiiight. We should just say nothing and let him spread misinformation so people that don't know any better can get the wrong ideas about this game and how things work.

Then they go and spread that same misinformation further because it must be true since no one contradicted it.

this one?




No worries, it came through loud and clear.

http://tx.english-ch.com/teacher/tsa...%20teacher.jpg

Not much more to add except that more stuff quicker and some stuff when unsubbed is much better than ragequiting and getting nothing at all.

I was going to say that no one would read 25 pages of this, then realized everyone just goes to the last page. Torches, Pitchforks, ready, and "Roll em!"

You use the phrase "slap in the face" a lot. And just as a pure matter of writing and communications: I put it to you that by the end of a post like this, the fact that the heavy repetition of that phrase has me laughing out loud every time I see it and thinking in terms of a drinking game means that it is almost certainly not having the rhetorical effect that you intend.

*drinks

Why, yes.

See, this is equivocation. "Everything we put out" is a term that has changed meaning substantially between the first usage and the second usage.

Which is to say: "Everything we put out" has changed meaning.

Let us go to the... CAR ANALOGY!

My friend runs a car dealership. He used to have a TINY little dealership. Like. He had a car. You could go there, and buy the car, and then he'd have to get another. He got them from this very friendly young gentleman, although often the locks were not in the best of shape. So you could, on any given day, go to his dealership and buy The Car. It was about $500. So $500 got you every car he had to sell. Later, he made friends with a couple more friendly young gentleman, and he started having four cars at a time. So $500 no longer got you every car he had to sell; now, it would cost you $1,000 to get every car he had to sell. But wait! That's only twice as much! Yes, you see, when he increased the size of his dealership, he started stiffing his suppliers, and passing the savings on to the consumer! So $500 now got you two cars. But, at the same time, $500 only got you half of what he had to sell!

Now, imagine that instead of cars with oddly defective locks, we were investigating content produced by an MMO developer. At one point, "everything they had on offer" was a given amount of content. So for $15/month, you got that much content. Later, they started producing a lot more content. Three or four times more content, in fact! But you no longer got it all for $15 per month. Now, if you just kept paying $15/month, you got more content than you used to. But you also had the option of paying more, and getting even more content!

*drinks*

Maybe you could slow down and explain this part to me, because I might be missing something.

How does this show that they were capable of this pace previous to the Freedom model?

Because all you've done so far is show that:
1. At a time when they were receiving less money, they produced less stuff.
2. When they started receiving more money, they produced more stuff.

Now, this may be just one of those crazy thoughts I have sometimes, but it almost seems to me like this creates the impression of a correlation between receipt of money, and production of stuff. Also, I am given to understand that the people producing the stuff are in a relationship to Paragon Studios known as "employment", wherein they produce stuff in exchange for money. In many fields, where there is such a relationship, if you want more stuff produced, you generally hire more people (or more skilled people), which costs more money. This sort of suggests, dare I say it, an explanation for the apparent causal chain from "receive more money" to "produce more stuff".

What does the majority have to do with it? I am disputing your claims because your opinion is different from mine, and because it seems to me that this is a matter wherein it is possible to speak of evidence "supporting" one opinion or another, and furthermore where it seems to me that the evidence does not support yours.

I don't see why it should.

I'll take that bet, but I warn you, this time of day all that's left are the ones with the coconut on them, usually.

Exactly. The analysis of the business model is completely unrelated to whether you love or hate the game. I happen to like the game a fair bit, but it doesn't matter. I can analyze business models of products I dislike, too.