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Perhaps, it is because we're well aware of how this stacks up against other control powers. It's mitigation surpasses similar effects in Ice Slick and Earthquake easily and beats out both in recharge and duration. On top of this is Fire's position on the high end of control sets. Of course, if this change was made to a power in Ice control I personally would still be against it.|
Originally Posted by Pinkpup
I find it ironic that most people on the troller forum would have putting bonfire in the 'mostly' skippable column some month ago if asked. Now a proc comes along, which is causing people to stick it back in their build... and some wish to return it back to graveyard of skipped powers.
And by the way, you could have the same discussion about tornado. Lets see, auto-hit, good damage, rarely used till the kb proc came out. |
As for Tornado, it has a far smaller area of effect (a 7 feet radius or 154 square feet area vs. Bonfires 25 feet radius and 1963 square feet area) and a much smaller target cap (5 vs. 16). That prevents it from locking down entire spawns the way that Bonfire can with this proc. Also, to second what Yogi has stated, I always take and often recommend Tornado as a damage tool for controllers as most AoE immobilizes negate most detrimental knockback.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I wonder why Jolting Chain isn't. That's something that always bothered me about that power.
The Confusion in Arctic Air seems like a major candidate for being promoted into ignoring it too, actually, given how that power works. |
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Originally Posted by ketch
Of course, if this change was made to a power in Ice control I personally would still be against it.
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I would too.
It's an interesting situation though. With some people saying Bonfire is okay with the proc, I wonder what what uptweak they think is needed to Ice Slick. I'm imagining something like -KB to IO recipe converter. You cast it ad knockdown converts to a free IO in your inventory. It would be balanced by the fact that your recipe list eventually gets full and you can't get any more. (The conversion would happen more slowly than a Fire Brute can farm, so it would be balanced.)
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If this has a like button, I would like this lol.
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Originally Posted by Pinkpup
I find it ironic that most people on the troller forum would have putting bonfire in the 'mostly' skippable column some month ago if asked. Now a proc comes along, which is causing people to stick it back in their build... and some wish to return it back to graveyard of skipped powers.
And by the way, you could have the same discussion about tornado. Lets see, auto-hit, good damage, rarely used till the kb proc came out. |
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That's not really a PvP flag. It's just an "is target a player" check. So it won't proc on a mastermind pet. See also Support Core Hybrid -- in-game numbers get confused by it and show the "player" numbers under PvP, and the "pet" numbers under PvE mode.|
Originally Posted by Sentry4
I noticed this a while back and tried to see if it would actually KD an ally. I couldn't get it to proc (Long recharge, not enough trials).
I figured that maybe since it's PvP tagged that it would only work in a PvP zone, but I didn't get it there either. I'm still waiting for that day I give someone painbringer, they KD in a PvP zone and die to 5 stalkers. |
1% is very low, though. It would take a large number of activations to get it to trigger. Or just one if you're (un)lucky.
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Whew I don't feel weird anymore. I thought I was the only one with a podium in my bedroom. |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
And therin lies the difference between an Internet forum and a podium in your bedroom.
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Mines the old high school type with the silver microphone stand on it. You know the I'm talking about, the mic stand that keeps dropping because of the weight of the microphone. That one.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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Disagree. My incarnated Plant/Kin troller is a stronger toon. Fulcrum Shifted Carion Creepers proccing Reactive is stronger AOE, and his single-target is stronger due to FS. Even with Fire/Rad running Hot Feet and Choking Cloud and the KB-proc bonfire. Plant/Kin survives better and does more damage AOE and, honestly, seems about as good at control due to Seeds.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I doubt it. You underestimate the power of Fire control, both in damage and its ability to control (and that is before ludicrous Bonfire). |
Although he's right about part of it: Plant Control is overpowered, by any objective measurement. Thing is, as soon as the possibility of nerfs get discussed, suddenly its all about how Seeds being a cone is a huge disadvantage, and the set has low single target power, and Creepers requires such a long recharge, and all the other evasive kind of arguments that we are seeing here for this ability, ultimately summed up into: "But, Brutes!"
To be perfectly honest, I think its to the advantage of anyone who doesn't want a quizical eye turned to Plant Control to not invite comparisons between this ability and anything seen there.
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Well, primarily it's Seeds of Confusion. If we dropped or gutted that power, while Carrion Creepers would most definitely still be strong, it'd be a shadow of it's former self. It's ST Hold is slow (compared to the faster ones, which are obviously better for ST damage, which IMO is still Plants 'weakness") and lackluster, Roots shines as doing more damage than the other AoE Immos, and Carrion Creepers is really good.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Just Nemesis would be enough.
Although he's right about part of it: Plant Control is overpowered, by any objective measurement. Thing is, as soon as the possibility of nerfs get discussed, suddenly its all about how Seeds being a cone is a huge disadvantage, and the set has low single target power, and Creepers requires such a long recharge, and all the other evasive kind of arguments that we are seeing here for this ability, ultimately summed up into: "But, Brutes!" To be perfectly honest, I think its to the advantage of anyone who doesn't want a quizical eye turned to Plant Control to not invite comparisons between this ability and anything seen there. |
At this point? There's nothing you can do to Plant Control and not piss off a LOT more people, due to how old the set is. I mean, a 'good' way to nerf Plant Control with out nerfing it too hard is probably having enemies who are currently confused by Seeds of Confusion suffer a -DMG or -Recharge or -ToHit debuff, so they are ineffectual at killing off each other. Really, having Seeds of Confusion lock down a group would make it more in-line of other "Alternative Control" Powers.
But, that's years in the past and really doesn't matter. And in Trials with EBs being all over it's less effective (Plant in general is less effective in Trials. Good still, but with so much damage flying around /shrug).
But thiiiiiis is something entirely different. Entirely, entirely different. Would I like to see Seeds of Confusion downscaled? No, but I'd understand it. Will it after so many years? No, not really.
But this proc, in Bonfire specifically (MAYBE Tornado. BIG Maybe) still has time to be changed. And needs to be changed.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
At this point? There's nothing you can do to Plant Control and not piss off a LOT more people, due to how old the set is. I mean, a 'good' way to nerf Plant Control with out nerfing it too hard is probably having enemies who are currently confused by Seeds of Confusion suffer a -DMG or -Recharge or -ToHit debuff, so they are ineffectual at killing off each other. Really, having Seeds of Confusion lock down a group would make it more in-line of other "Alternative Control" Powers.
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A good way to nerf/fix several of the sets is to buff the AT as a whole by partially undoing the massive AOE hold nerf from several years ago. I would look to slash AoE holds from 240s recharge to 180 across the board. This move by itself with help tremendously with sets like Ice, Gravity, and Mind, who are currently somewhat behind mainly because they have control holes the original change introduced.
In addition, all sets would have to follow these new rules:
- Everyone with an AoE immobilize must use the same base damage + bonus (not x2 damage like Plant currently does at complete random)
- Seeds of Confusion uses the same base accuracy and duration as Stalagmites/Flashfire (down from its 36 second duration to 14). It can keep its 30 second faster Recharge because its a cone. In return, the person who originally designed this power must sign a waiver stating that he or she will never drink whiskey shots while designing powers again.
- Confusion now sets Containment.
- Damage from Containment can no longer exceed the base damage of the power x2. This rule applies no matter how much +damage or -resist is applied to the situation. You still get bonus damage from the core of the power, but Containment doesn't increase as dramatically with it.
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| But this proc, in Bonfire specifically (MAYBE Tornado. BIG Maybe) still has time to be changed. And needs to be changed. |
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If Confusion can set off Containment, I demand Fear/Terrorize can, too! ;P|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
A good way to nerf/fix several of the sets is to buff the AT as a whole by partially undoing the massive AOE hold nerf from several years ago. I would look to slash AoE holds from 240s recharge to 180 across the board. This move by itself with help tremendously with sets like Ice, Gravity, and Mind, who are currently somewhat behind mainly because they have control holes the original change introduced.
In addition, all sets would have to follow these new rules: - Everyone with an AoE immobilize must use the same base damage + bonus (not x2 damage like Plant currently does at complete random) - Seeds of Confusion uses the same base accuracy and duration as Stalagmites/Flashfire (down from its 36 second duration to 14). It can keep its 30 second faster Recharge because its a cone. In return, the person who originally designed this power must sign a waiver stating that he or she will never drink whiskey shots while designing powers again. - Confusion now sets Containment. |
But yeah, reducing it's Accuracy and Duration would probably be sufficient. It wouldn't be WOAHWHY, but it would be something.
Still, this is more about Bonfire KB to KD, and less Seeds of Derp.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
If Confusion can set off Containment, I demand Fear/Terrorize can, too! ;P
But yeah, reducing it's Accuracy and Duration would probably be sufficient. It wouldn't be WOAHWHY, but it would be something. Still, this is more about Bonfire KB to KD, and less Seeds of Derp. |
Agreed, again. Especially on the point on Tornado above. I think new-Tornado is really powerful, but doesn't rise to the level of broken that Bonfire does.
Total sidenote, I wonder if a Immobilize set that adds -kb or removes it is on the table for later.
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Again, you're saying that because Bonfire+Proc don't break iTrials that everything is fine, without regard to the fact that incarnate trials are in and of themselves outliers in general game performance, and still only a small portion of the overall game.|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Off the top of my head, Greater Devoured and Seers (which hover and don't get affected, it seems). Both of which whooped my butt several times on a recent UG. Heck UG has packs of mobs that are *just* Greater Devoureds.
Again, hyperbole aside, in my experience running itrials this isn't really making that much of a difference on my fire/rad. In part because of all the immobs being thrown around (people keep AOE-immobing groups, which nullifies BF). In part because of the mobs that resist it. Gee OK maybe it is helping ppl level up on blasters or whatever but I'm not seeing that. |
As someone who leveled an electric/ controller through Praetoria, I can assure you that non-incarnate Seers are just as vulnerable to Knock* effects as rank and file Hellions.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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It's not about putting Bonfire back into the powers graveyard.|
Originally Posted by Pinkpup
I find it ironic that most people on the troller forum would have putting bonfire in the 'mostly' skippable column some month ago if asked. Now a proc comes along, which is causing people to stick it back in their build... and some wish to return it back to graveyard of skipped powers.
And by the way, you could have the same discussion about tornado. Lets see, auto-hit, good damage, rarely used till the kb proc came out. |
It's about Bonfire+proc basically outperforming entire other control sets on its own.
One power plus one proc = permanent AoE total lockdown. That's absolutely broken.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Sorry, not totally up to date on the conversation but I wanted to say this is totally correct. I don't want this proc to be changed because it makes me feel actually powerful on my Blaster but I can recognize it as a too good outlier. I have to also agree with Arcanaville here, if you don't think it will be changed, you have to have no clue about the history of powers. I don't think it breaks the game, but it certainly is way overpowered, especially as a APP power.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Hint: This gave Blasters and Masterminds the best Control power in the game, and Dominators can shore up Even More Damage now.
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For most hardcore fire/, the proc&bonfire won't make that big of change for them. Its more or less, just extra damage and a little more control. With flashfire and cinder, I pretty much could already control two mobs... bonfire just helps out. For those not willing to waste millions in their builds, I guess proc/bonfire will make a larger impact since they don't have the recharge for flashfire for every mob.
But as a game killer, give me a break.... you may hate it, but it won't cause folks to play anymore fire/kins then we already have on the servers.
And the fix is rather easy, just turn the proc down so some of the kb stays kb. Its not that bonfire is broken, its just the proc with it. That is, if you buy that line which I don't. And please don't give me you're the 'Keepers of the Game Balance Grail', that only you know the true truths from above. I doubt bonfire got pass the devs when they where thinking about this proc and its effects on the game. Its a easy catch, even more so then tornado which is likely the next one on the list of game destroying powers + proc.
Or maybe, how about some self-control and just convince folks not to slot the new proc in bonfire. 
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
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Both of these powers are subject to accuracy checks meaning you will miss some of the mob. In fact, with a 95% chance to hit any individual member of a mob there's only a roughly 50% chance that you will hit every member of the spawn. Bonfire is auto-hit. That also dismisses the lack of magnitude needed to lock down bosses in the case of controllers and dominators without domination.|
Originally Posted by Pinkpup
For most hardcore fire/, the proc&bonfire won't make that big of change for them. Its more or less, just extra damage and a little more control. With flashfire and cinder, I pretty much could already control two mobs... bonfire just helps out. For those not willing to waste millions in their builds, I guess proc/bonfire will make a larger impact since they don't have the recharge for flashfire for every mob.
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At perma-hasten levels of recharge with a recharge boosting alpha , the most you'll be use Cinders to help with a second mob is once a minute. Flashfire could be cast thrice within that minute. Bonfire, at the same level of recharge, can be cast 4 times in that minute.
Auto-hit, affects all ranks, does not scale with level (as effective against +5s or +20s as even conning enemies). This is only a little more control?
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| But as a game killer, give me a break.... you may hate it, but it won't cause folks to play anymore fire/kins then we already have on the servers. |
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| And the fix is rather easy, just turn the proc down so some of the kb stays kb. Its not that bonfire is broken, its just the proc with it. That is, if you buy that line which I don't. And please don't give me you're the 'Keepers of the Game Balance Grail', that only you know the true truths from above. I doubt bonfire got pass the devs when they where thinking about this proc and its effects on the game. Its a easy catch, even more so then tornado which is likely the next one on the list of game destroying powers + proc. |
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Or maybe, how about some self-control and just convince folks not to slot the new proc in bonfire.
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Well, since this is a imperfect world.... Who's going to suck it up then?|
Originally Posted by ketch
I agree that it is not Bonfire that is broken. Changes should at the proc rather than changing a long standing power. Tweaking the amount of negative knockback in the proc could work, but it would also make the proc work inconsistently across many powers. For example, tweaking this for Bonfire would mean that it would no longer convert knockback to knockdown for Telekinetic Thrust, Quasar, or Sonic's Shockwave which have equal or greater knockback.
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You could give bonfire a 'to-hit' roll (say like Gale) but I don't think it will make that many here happy. My toon, I got enough acc bonuses I still be flopping the mobs with easy. And for the rest of the bonfirers out there, you just have them throwing two acc IOs in with the proc... which won't lead anyone here on this thread into nirvana as well.
As I said, a imperfect world.
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
Add to Bonfire a Mag 1 unenhanceable knockback that does not scale with the purple patch and this power is fixed. It would restore Bonfire to its base function without adding ToHit checks or other things that would fundamentally change the power itself on account of a proc. It would mean the proc no longer functions, but of the several powersets that could use developer time to ensure outlier powers contribute more, Fire Control sits at or near the bottom for me.
defenders of broken Bonfire in this thread are reminding me strongly of defenders of broken Smoke Grenade back in the day.
Just waiting for someone to threaten to quit the game when they fix it, then all the prophecies will be in place!
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Really it doesn't matter to me that much, likely if the devs neuter bonfire so the new proc is useless... I will just respec out again, and move the proc over to tornado till folks go after that.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
defenders of broken Bonfire in this thread are reminding me strongly of defenders of broken Smoke Grenade back in the day.
Just waiting for someone to threaten to quit the game when they fix it, then all the prophecies will be in place! |
But we could all get t-shirts made up, saying "I think your favorite power is broken!"
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
The problem people are having here is several people equate game breaking with kill speed. KD-Bonfire does not really help you kill much faster certainly not faster than a blaster(without it) or scrapper or brute can manage. In this case the people who are calling it game breaking are calling it that because it removes most of if not all risk indefinitely. You can fight at +4x8 with this and as long as you are careful and patient you will kill the spawns in complete safety at a steady pace. There are IO builds that let you do this but they involve a serious investment of time and effort to get. The are powers and power combo that do this but not all the time. KD-Bonfire does this with one power pick, 1-2 slots placed in it, and the KB2KD IO in it.
It is gamebreaking because for a minor investment of time and effort it removes most if not all risk from any enemy that does not have KB pro regardless of their level in relation to yours and it will never miss. The fact that you cant kill as fast the farmer of the month does not matter because dps, dpa, or dpe are not what is broken here. What is broken is that versus any spawn in the game you are safer than an fully IOed granite armor tank so long as you are diligent in maintaining your bonfire.
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Well said.
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Originally Posted by Crim_the_Cold
The problem people are having here is several people equate game breaking with kill speed. KD-Bonfire does not really help you kill much faster certainly not faster than a blaster(without it) or scrapper or brute can manage. In this case the people who are calling it game breaking are calling it that because it removes most of if not all risk indefinitely. You can fight at +4x8 with this and as long as you are careful and patient you will kill the spawns in complete safety at a steady pace. There are IO builds that let you do this but they involve a serious investment of time and effort to get. The are powers and power combo that do this but not all the time. KD-Bonfire does this with one power pick, 1-2 slots placed in it, and the KB2KD IO in it.
It is gamebreaking because for a minor investment of time and effort it removes most if not all risk from any enemy that does not have KB pro regardless of their level in relation to yours and it will never miss. The fact that you cant kill as fast the farmer of the month does not matter because dps, dpa, or dpe are not what is broken here. What is broken is that versus any spawn in the game you are safer than an fully IOed granite armor tank so long as you are diligent in maintaining your bonfire. |
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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The Kinetic Crashes completely nullify the KB-KD proc. I tried it on my Fire/Rad: the proc plus 4 Kinetic Crashes in Bonfire, and in the Casino mission, it was sending goons flying all over the place. Plus. not once did it KD any of the AVs. After the mission, I went to Bricks to confirm that the K-Crashes were nullifying the KD. And sure enough, the Freaks there were also getting thrown everywhere.|
Originally Posted by BViking
Would that make it affect more KB-resistant foes, with the proc ensuring that they never go flying, correct?
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After replacing the K-Crashes with 2 endurance reducers and 2 damages (fortunately, I had not leveled up at the time and so had not slotted the rare K-Crash), Bonfire went back to a KD power once more.
Give Bonfire a smaller chance to hit. Remove the autohit!
That will prob be enough... then a few enemies will walk through it. Making it very dangerous to use for low level toons.
Or...
Make enemies flee from it and remove the KB in Bonfire completely... Make the effect closer to HotFeet.
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And by the way, you could have the same discussion about tornado. Lets see, auto-hit, good damage, rarely used till the kb proc came out.
And although Tornado no longer has to chase single targets down; its not locking down entire 8-16 man spawns [indefinitely]. Apples and oranges.
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