Would this break the cottage rule if the initial toss was knockback/knockdown then is a slow/dmg patch maybe lowering its dmg making it like quicksand with dmg instead of -def.
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Cottage Rule.
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Originally Posted by CyWolf
Would this break the cottage rule if the initial toss was knockback/knockdown then is a slow/dmg patch maybe lowering its dmg making it like quicksand with dmg instead of -def.
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Personally, I think the only way to fix it is to somehow be able to modify the power only when the IO is in it.
I feel that without the IO, bonfire should act the way it always has. Then, with the IO, if they could make it so it works more like Ice Slick with damage, or even Ice Slick with a lessened chance to KD or more time between ticks.
Now this begs the question, when are they going to fix Ice Control?
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My earlier suggestion for a short-live low magnitude KD resistance on knocked foes would actually do just this. As knock is determined by magnitude, The 'normal' bonfire would be unaffected, as it is 6.231 mag vs. the IO'd bonfire at mag ~.06231. As all other KD magnitudes of 'normal' powers are higher than the .06231 value, critters would be knocked down by those even while resisting the bonfire KD.|
Originally Posted by Wyatt_Earp
Personally, I think the only way to fix it is to somehow be able to modify the power only when the IO is in it.
I feel that without the IO, bonfire should act the way it always has. Then, with the IO, if they could make it so it works more like Ice Slick with damage, or even Ice Slick with a lessened chance to KD or more time between ticks. Now this begs the question, when are they going to fix Ice Control? |
The duration of the resistance could be used to tweak the overall effectiveness while allowing the patch+IO to still avoid scattering and allow for knocking down occasionally, but the effect wouldn't be non-stop.
The power works without any hitches on 'normal' bonfire this way, people get to keep their proc and its effect, the patch would be useful but not so much so that enemies could not return fire. It's a win/win/win.
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I only see one issue with that. If bonfire gives them .06231 -KB, then what about all of the other powers that are slotted with the KB->KD IO? Basically any power with less than 6.231 KB slotted with the IO would also lose it's ability to knock enemies down. Not saying it's a bad idea, but it might be more of a win/win/win/lose, haha. |
Originally Posted by Seldom
My earlier suggestion for a short-live low magnitude KD resistance on knocked foes would actually do just this. As knock is determined by magnitude, The 'normal' bonfire would be unaffected, as it is 6.231 mag vs. the IO'd bonfire at mag ~.06231. As all other KD magnitudes of 'normal' powers are higher than the .06231 value, critters would be knocked down by those even while resisting the bonfire KD.
The duration of the resistance could be used to tweak the overall effectiveness while allowing the patch+IO to still avoid scattering and allow for knocking down occasionally, but the effect wouldn't be non-stop. The power works without any hitches on 'normal' bonfire this way, people get to keep their proc and its effect, the patch would be useful but not so much so that enemies could not return fire. It's a win/win/win. |
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Not saying it won't fix what people think is broken, but it sounds like it would be buggy as all get out. Kinda like saying "We broke the power to fix it."|
Originally Posted by Seldom
My earlier suggestion for a short-live low magnitude KD resistance on knocked foes would actually do just this. As knock is determined by magnitude, The 'normal' bonfire would be unaffected, as it is 6.231 mag vs. the IO'd bonfire at mag ~.06231. As all other KD magnitudes of 'normal' powers are higher than the .06231 value, critters would be knocked down by those even while resisting the bonfire KD.
The duration of the resistance could be used to tweak the overall effectiveness while allowing the patch+IO to still avoid scattering and allow for knocking down occasionally, but the effect wouldn't be non-stop. The power works without any hitches on 'normal' bonfire this way, people get to keep their proc and its effect, the patch would be useful but not so much so that enemies could not return fire. It's a win/win/win. |
Maybe the better idea is just to withdraw the kb/kd proc, since we all have learned to lived with kb anyways. I mean, bonfire has been around for years in its currect form and this proc is brand shiny new. So by default, the new kid should get the door...
But we know it ain't going to happen. Even if I was twisting folks tail with the above, is the perceived problem with bonfire/proc worth the possibility of a major bug infestation?
A interesting choice.... might even be worth seeing if the 'fix' crosses over to some of the other powers.
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I ran an ITF with my Fire/Rad last night, and found the Bonfire+Proc to be a nice but far from game-breaking addition. Anywhere from 15-75% of the foes were affected since most of the Cims are knockback resistant. A few times I threw it into a large group and did not survive the ranged attack in retaliation -- this character is not built with any ranged defense.
It added some to his ability to control in a TF which notoriously neuters control -- it had a larger effect on the Third Reich and the Dark Dwarves, of course, but there were still plenty of foes who could shoot at me. When the Dwarves started flopping, the Novas and Nicti made me their favorite target.
While the proc may be "game breaking" in some areas, it was not on that TF.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
I ran an ITF with my Fire/Rad last night, and found the Bonfire+Proc to be a nice but far from game-breaking addition. Anywhere from 15-75% of the foes were affected since most of the Cims are knockback resistant. A few times I threw it into a large group and did not survive the ranged attack in retaliation -- this character is not built with any ranged defense.
It added some to his ability to control in a TF which notoriously neuters control -- it had a larger effect on the Third Reich and the Dark Dwarves, of course, but there were still plenty of foes who could shoot at me. When the Dwarves started flopping, the Novas and Nicti made me their favorite target. While the proc may be "game breaking" in some areas, it was not on that TF. |
I would have to agree, with the number of DA missions I've been running. With some mobs, its works like a dream. Others, I start taking some heavy fire back. Enough so, I'm back with burning some luck before I start on the mob.
Of course, I might be missing something but I doubt the new players will just slot-up bonfire with some general IOs, then turn it to eleven (+4/8). If fact, does anyone have a low who can share?
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Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
Finally got through the whole thread.
~ I am in the "it needs to be fixed" camp.
~ Comparing this one power with 3 or 4 SOs to a Brute build fine tuned with billions of influence of IOs probably isn't the best argument.
In addition, I think people tend to exaggerate the power levels of Brutes. Yes, they can farm content very well if the enemies fit into a certain range of criteria. Try to run the highest content, like tip missions or DA missions, at the highest settings and debuffs and hit bonuses have the character kiting and scrambling to survive.
That process is not the same as having a stealth blaster drop a Bonfire on a group of +4 Arachnos and eliminating them as a threat.
~ Anyone trying to defend the Bonfire + Proc combo by comparing it favorably to Plant is not doing that argument any favors. Just saying.
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Not sure how it would be buggy, but the earlier mentioned issue with altogether removing it is this: you can disallow people from slotting the enhancement, but even then it still works in the powers it has been slotted in. This goes back to when they made a few IO's unique; people couldn't slot more than one of them, but folks who had multiples could still use them all, they just couldn't respec and maintain the 'old' slotting. The cat is out of the bag, and people have this IO and are using it. Locking it won't solve that. The multiple to unique situation also leads me to believe the devs can't, or don't want to, nullify the effect of an IO already slotted in a power in which it is fully functional as devised.|
Originally Posted by Pinkpup
Not saying it won't fix what people think is broken, but it sounds like it would be buggy as all get out. Kinda like saying "We broke the power to fix it."
Maybe the better idea is just to withdraw the kb/kd proc, since we all have learned to lived with kb anyways. I mean, bonfire has been around for years in its currect form and this proc is brand shiny new. So by default, the new kid should get the door... But we know it ain't going to happen. Even if I was twisting folks tail with the above, is the perceived problem with bonfire/proc worth the possibility of a major bug infestation? A interesting choice.... might even be worth seeing if the 'fix' crosses over to some of the other powers. |
As far as buginess, I'm no dev but here's what I was thinking:
If the power did .1 KB protection after one second for X seconds, unstackable per caster. Most KD mag is higher, around .67 KB, so .1 protection keeps it functional at .57. Non-stacking means the fast tics don't give progressively higher KB protection, verging into immunity. The 1 second delay means that even over continuous exposure to the effect, the target also is ensured one second where the IO WILL knock them down. between when the old protection wears off and the new is applied.
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Never attacking you is better than usually missing you.
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Originally Posted by MesmerLune
How in the world would this be better then something that debuffs to hit 100%?? If they cant hit you, you win. As I've sated before, there are enemies that have protection against KD therefor the power is deemed useless...................
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Amen brother. Voice of reason in a sea of hyperbole. Same thing on the itrials.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
I ran an ITF with my Fire/Rad last night, and found the Bonfire+Proc to be a nice but far from game-breaking addition. Anywhere from 15-75% of the foes were affected since most of the Cims are knockback resistant. A few times I threw it into a large group and did not survive the ranged attack in retaliation -- this character is not built with any ranged defense.
It added some to his ability to control in a TF which notoriously neuters control -- it had a larger effect on the Third Reich and the Dark Dwarves, of course, but there were still plenty of foes who could shoot at me. When the Dwarves started flopping, the Novas and Nicti made me their favorite target. While the proc may be "game breaking" in some areas, it was not on that TF. |
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So, the argument is that since the proc is not overpowered on the BAF and not overpowered on the ITF, it's fine?
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Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Amen brother. Voice of reason in a sea of hyperbole. Same thing on the itrials.
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First off, there's more than enough hyperbole to go around.|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Amen brother. Voice of reason in a sea of hyperbole. Same thing on the itrials.
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Second, you keep using fringe cases of the few situations that control effects as a whole are not particularly useful to make blanket statements about it being just fine throughout the course of the entire game.
Because it's not broken in a handful of situations that comprise a very small portion of the game, does not mean that it's performance is acceptable as a whole.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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This.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It doesn't matter if that doesn't translate into the best farming build in the world. Its still very likely game-breaking in the literal sense of the term. Even non-alerting high accuracy confusion is at least degraded by the purple patch. KD isn't, because the duration of KD is not affected by magnitude changes due to the purple patch.
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I can drop a bonfire from out of LoS. I can perma it by just redropping it before it goes away. The enemies never get a chance to attack me. It does not matter what level they are - it only matters if they resist knockback.
This is not a power that is tricky to use or that requires the right circumstances.
It is an iwin button. There may be things that kill faster - but this is a guaranteed 100% safe iwin button.
The simplest solution is to require a to hit check with bonfire. It will still be great, but will have a limit.
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Again, let's not get hyperbolic in your response -- if you don't actually have another power that can do significant damage to a +20, then using perma-KB to 'neutralize' it doesn't really help that much, since you don't get XP for just knocking down an enemy.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But while some claims about the synergy are hyperbolic, by this game's definitions its possible Bonfire + KB2KD is game breaking because of its peculiar properties of 2 second cycle, autohit, and 100% effect. Although I haven't tested this myself (but I plan to) Bonfire seems to be capable of incapacitating anything not KB resistant. It could neutralize +20s, because it doesn't need to roll tohit against them and KB is not materially affected by the purple patch.
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The 'uber-farmer' folks have a slightly better point, except:
1) There are already ATs and builds that can run arbitrary level shift/x8, so the fact that an AT with access to Bonfire+OF can now do so as well doesn't really hold a lot of water with me, and
2) Only two specific builds -- Fire/x Controllers and Fire/x Dominators -- have the ability to attempt to start this 'farm' at level 26. Every other AT needs to wait until level 35. Somehow I doubt the Kin/Fire Brute who's been running at +?/x8 since level 16 will be very impressed.
The effect certainly *looks* impressive, but given that the devs have always said that they don't balance the game for IOs, I don't see where this has such a huge material effect on core gameplay that it's really needed to 'nerf' this combo.
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Pauper
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That's irrelevant, because as I've said repeatedly now, while some players' definition of game-breaking seems to include the mandatory requirement of directly earning lots of rewards, that definition would only be relevant to any game they might choose to release in the future. It has no bearing on what is or is not game-breaking by both historical dev assertions and historical dev actions. In this game, earning massive amounts of rewards is a sufficient, but not necessary requirement for something to be considered game breaking. Its game breaking if it breaks some design rule of the game that is deemed unbreakable by choice.|
Originally Posted by Pauper
Again, let's not get hyperbolic in your response -- if you don't actually have another power that can do significant damage to a +20, then using perma-KB to 'neutralize' it doesn't really help that much, since you don't get XP for just knocking down an enemy.
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So if the next game patch changes phase shift so we can shoot while phased, that would be game breaking. We don't all have to sit around and do calculations to figure out if that somehow aids the best farmer to earn more rewards. Anyone who wants to do those calculations is welcome to do so, but that would be of no consequence.
Everyone is free to make up their own definitions and perspectives on whether this combination is "game-breaking" or not. However, anyone making up their own definitions and concluding its not has no right to act surprised when its ultimately changed because the devs decide this behavior exceeds the limits of what the game design acceptably allows. They could change it tomorrow, or next week, or next year. And as always, my sympathy for the players who act surprised when it happens will be minimal.
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This isn't really surprising. The way the knockback to knockdown proc works in the power is by applying a -99% knockback enhancement to the power. Since enchantments are added together (prior to ED being applied) adding enhancements with positive knockback modifiers will counteract the Overwhelming Force IO to at least some degree and in most case it will be enough to return the power to dealing knockback.|
Originally Posted by Willowpaw
The Kinetic Crashes completely nullify the KB-KD proc. I tried it on my Fire/Rad: the proc plus 4 Kinetic Crashes in Bonfire, and in the Casino mission, it was sending goons flying all over the place. Plus. not once did it KD any of the AVs. After the mission, I went to Bricks to confirm that the K-Crashes were nullifying the KD. And sure enough, the Freaks there were also getting thrown everywhere.
After replacing the K-Crashes with 2 endurance reducers and 2 damages (fortunately, I had not leveled up at the time and so had not slotted the rare K-Crash), Bonfire went back to a KD power once more. |
I'll also add that if the devs wish to make the proc less useful in Bonfire the simple solution would be to make a portion of the knockback unenhanceable (maybe mag 4 so that it will still KB +5s). This would have the effect of pretty much nullifying the proc in bonfire without impacting the other uses for the power.
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Fair enough, but there are a lot of things that have changed like that over the years:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In this game, earning massive amounts of rewards is a sufficient, but not necessary requirement for something to be considered game breaking. Its game breaking if it breaks some design rule of the game that is deemed unbreakable by choice.
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- Receiving 'full' travel powers at level 4 instead of level 14.
- Access to remote auctionhouse and vault as vet rewards.
- Reducing requirements to access Epic archetypes.
Heck, you could even argue that, by this definition, Enhancement Diversification is game-breaking. Except that, since these things were done with seeming deliberation, while the OF proc is presumed to be a bug, that the former don't count in this calculation.
That's really my main point -- the idea that this was 'unintended' despite having ostensibly been tested. Looking at the actual effects instead of just being overwhelmed with the visual of eight mobs flopping helplessly on the floor leads me to feel like this is just 'meh' in the cosmic scheme.
On a scale of 'game-breaking', I'd say perma-Phantom Army is still better than this -- permanent aggro-avoidance, plus enough damage to actually defeat the mobs that aren't attacking you. Plus you can start it earlier than Bonfire/OF. And nobody's calling for that to be nerfed.
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Pauper
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I was not aware the 200+% Global Recharge for Perma Phantom Army was easier to obtain than a single +Recharge SO and a single easily acquired Proc in Bonfire to make it stackable. It's Perma at base value.|
Originally Posted by Pauper
Fair enough, but there are a lot of things that have changed like that over the years:
- Receiving 'full' travel powers at level 4 instead of level 14. - Access to remote auctionhouse and vault as vet rewards. - Reducing requirements to access Epic archetypes. Heck, you could even argue that, by this definition, Enhancement Diversification is game-breaking. Except that, since these things were done with seeming deliberation, while the OF proc is presumed to be a bug, that the former don't count in this calculation. That's really my main point -- the idea that this was 'unintended' despite having ostensibly been tested. Looking at the actual effects instead of just being overwhelmed with the visual of eight mobs flopping helplessly on the floor leads me to feel like this is just 'meh' in the cosmic scheme. On a scale of 'game-breaking', I'd say perma-Phantom Army is still better than this -- permanent aggro-avoidance, plus enough damage to actually defeat the mobs that aren't attacking you. Plus you can start it earlier than Bonfire/OF. And nobody's calling for that to be nerfed. -- Pauper |
I was also not aware 200+% Recharge was not a multi-billion influence investment on anything not A: Time Control, B: Radiation, or C: Kinetics. And even for those, it will still spike a billion.
Yes. These two are completely comparable metrics. A power that is 'overpowered' at extreme IO levels vs. a power that breaks the game... with a single slot. And no other IOs beyond one anyone can get.
How do you logic?
In fact, let me ask this: If you don't see this as a problem, why do you care if it's removed or not?
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Originally Posted by Pauper
Again, let's not get hyperbolic in your response -- if you don't actually have another power that can do significant damage to a +20, then using perma-KB to 'neutralize' it doesn't really help that much, since you don't get XP for just knocking down an enemy.
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Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Amen brother. Voice of reason in a sea of hyperbole. Same thing on the itrials.
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But I agree with an above poster: Because it doesn't work in two areas in the whole game, it's apparently fine.
The level of delight I get from you trying to protect the precious thing is immense.
Personally, unless we get some 26th lvl troller or dom to tell us if this combo turned day into night, made the earth quakes, had posion arrows falling from the sky, and the pillers of Heaven shake... I still having problems believing this whole broken theory.
If fact, with Nethergoat appearing and talking about the smoke grenade... I can't help but be reminded about his and my discussion when they where talking about merging the markets and how I thought it would take away from the rpg angle of the game and he thought it would save redside. Turns out we were both wrong, since for most folks they don't even notice and at least on my server, redside is still just tumble weeds.
So lets see some evidences.... and not from your 50th, because with all the Incarnate stuff going, not sure its going to be a fair test.
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Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
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I have at least one friend, note the word "at least", who stopped playing their Fire Controller because they felt the proc was blatantly overpowered and actually ruined HER gaming experience.|
Originally Posted by Pinkpup
Personally, unless we get some 26th lvl troller or dom to tell us if this combo turned day into night, made the earth quakes, had posion arrows falling from the sky, and the pillers of Heaven shake... I still having problems believing this whole broken theory.
If fact, with Nethergoat appearing and talking about the smoke grenade... I can't help but be reminded about his and my discussion when they where talking about merging the markets and how I thought it would take away from the rpg angle of the game and he thought it would save redside. Turns out we were both wrong, since for most folks they don't even notice and at least on my server, redside is still just tumble weeds. So lets see some evidences.... and not from your 50th, because with all the Incarnate stuff going, not sure its going to be a fair test. |
And she normally loves breaking the game.
As for myself? I have a sub-50 Fire Controller and I laugh like an idiot when I use Bonfire.
Then I stopped playing it too because it was silly.
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Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Voice of reason in a sea of hyperbole.
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"Hyperbole" only applies if the statements being made aren't actually true.
The power not functioning against enemies with knock protection isn't a situation that applies uniquely to Bonfire. It's something that applies to all powers that cause knockdown. And that is the fatal flaw in the argument that Bonfire is balanced: it is significantly, overwhelmingly, out-of-this-world better than other knockdown patch and patch-like options (to say nothing of other control powers), to the point of obvious imbalance.
Whether you personally value control powers or not, the fact remains that control powers have balance considerations, and one of them is not "Is this a top farmer?" Control is valuable to the developers. It is theoretically possible for a set to have NO damage and still have control that is too good.
Basically arguing that a few enemies with knockback protection balance this power is akin to arguing that enemies with autohit powers justify increasing the Defense in Superior Invisibility to +100%. Not defense powers across the board, mind you, just Superior Invisibility, because it happens to be the power under the microscope at the current moment. The fact that that value is completely out of alignment with the rest of the game isn't important. In this POV, there are auto-hit powers; therefor its balanced.
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Perma-PA is nice control on a single target, but you can't control significantly more than two or three things with it. Even trying to control three bosses will get three of the PA sometimes attacking one boss and the other two stomping on your head.|
Originally Posted by Pauper
On a scale of 'game-breaking', I'd say perma-Phantom Army is still better than this -- permanent aggro-avoidance, plus enough damage to actually defeat the mobs that aren't attacking you. Plus you can start it earlier than Bonfire/OF. And nobody's calling for that to be nerfed.
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Also, as any illusion controller that uses "perma PA" knows perma PA is a colloquialism: there is no perma PA. Phantom army critters are designed to despawn when new ones are summoned: that means the previous set despawns while the new set spawns: you cannot consistently maintain solid aggro even on a single target with "perma PA" because they will not stack. You either need two Illusionists staggering PA, or there's a trick experienced Illusionists learn staggering decoys with the PA to maintain a lock on aggro. Again, generally for a single target.
Also, people have called for the PA to be nerfed, but the devs have stated it works as intended. That hasn't stopped the devs from adding special cases over the years that can kill the supposedly invulnerable PA, such as Hamidon, but those are generally very special cases.
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| That's really my main point -- the idea that this was 'unintended' despite having ostensibly been tested. |
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That will prob be enough... then a few enemies will walk through it. Making it very dangerous to use for low level toons.
Or...
Make enemies flee from it and remove the KB in Bonfire completely... Make the effect closer to HotFeet.
Cottage Rule.