Only read the first page, So i don't really care if i make someone mad by bringing something that was already mentioned up.
I think it should be nerfed, and then i don't. The power was before a useless waste of a slot and it's only purpose was either, to make the tank mad at you or to scatter people away from your solo AOE attacks.
Now its a useful little thing! ((Side note: thugs/traps/fire Bonfire + Trip mine is -VERY- sexy.)
But now it makes controlling mobs stupidly easy and task forces a joke.
But then again, Plant and earth on a dom do these sort of things too...
But then again, masterminds and blasters can get this...
But then again, its a fun power to use now
But then again, its not balanced
But then again, Castle no longer works at Paragon (Good Riddance.)
So for those who missed the Coffee Talk it sounds like a decision has been made. Bonfire and Tornado will have their chance to deal knockback reduced if they are slotted with the knocback reduction IO. For Bonfire the change to deal knockback will be about 40%.
So it'll still deal only knockdown but it will only deal it 40% of the time instead of every tick (this is roughly comparable to powers like Earthquake and Ice Slick which have a lower proc chance but tick more frequently).
Interesting -- it seems that, if the coffee talk is to be taken literally, then slotting OF into Bonfire will be what 'nerfs' it. Instead of a 100% chance for KB, you'll get a 40% of KD.
People who like this sort of thing will find it to be the sort of thing that they like.
--
Pauper
Works for me, since I have bonfire for the damage. And if you think about it, even 40% is pretty good.
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I can live with that being that I use both primarily for damage. Changes very little for my Fire and Plant/Storms; still usable as a saftey net to back up my -kb powers.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
So for those who missed the Coffee Talk it sounds like a decision has been made. Bonfire and Tornado will have their chance to deal knockback reduced if they are slotted with the knocback reduction IO. For Bonfire the change to deal knockback will be about 40%.
So it'll still deal only knockdown but it will only deal it 40% of the time instead of every tick (this is roughly comparable to powers like Earthquake and Ice Slick which have a lower proc chance but tick more frequently). |
Won't have to move it out of my Fire/Earth after all.
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Well that isn't technically a nerf, it's a sidegrade. Bonfire without OF does one thing, with it it does another.|
Originally Posted by Pauper
Interesting -- it seems that, if the coffee talk is to be taken literally, then slotting OF into Bonfire will be what 'nerfs' it. Instead of a 100% chance for KB, you'll get a 40% of KD.
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| Doubt this is what the folks looking for a nerf were really looking for. |
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Actually, this is exactly what I was thinking... Not sure about everyone else, but without the IO the power is the same. With the IO, the chance to KD is reduced. Seems much more balanced to me. Obviously it will need tested to see if 40% is right, but it's definitely the right direction.
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Originally Posted by Pauper
Interesting -- it seems that, if the coffee talk is to be taken literally, then slotting OF into Bonfire will be what 'nerfs' it. Instead of a 100% chance for KB, you'll get a 40% of KD.
Doubt this is what the folks looking for a nerf were really looking for. -- Pauper |
In the same video that the nerf was announced, nukes have been announced as crashless AND up every 2 minutes (around one minute with slotting, of course).
Of course, I feel sorry for the 4 minute base recharge AoE Holds now. What's the point in them when nukes will be up twice as often?
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If you're a "Crusty Old Fart" like me, you'll remember that the "original" NERF IT BY HALF *AND* HALF that happened with the AoE Holds of Controllers (over 15 Issues ago!) was to double the recharge time and cut the duration in half. Doing only one of these changes would have been "okay" but it was the Double Whamm-o Nerfbat of doing both together that seriously unbalanced the AoE Holds.
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Originally Posted by Snowzone
Of course, I feel sorry for the 4 minute base recharge AoE Holds now. What's the point in them when nukes will be up twice as often?
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What's the point of power blast when power bolt is up twice as often.
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Originally Posted by Snowzone
Of course, I feel sorry for the 4 minute base recharge AoE Holds now. What's the point in them when nukes will be up twice as often?
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I recently got the proc for my level 27 Fire/Storm. At that level, it is not yet perma without some additional Recharge. I haven't had much time to play her with the proc yet, but I expect that it will make the character a lot more effective. Game breaking? Not sure yet. Certainly in some areas but not in all.|
Originally Posted by Pinkpup
First, I think a 26th lvl troller or dom would be the best test since its when you get bonfire. You can only slot it with the proc, and you're still low enough to not have soft-capped defense or resistance. Nor do you have the rest of the bells and whistles that a 50th level does, so you have less of a chance of outside factors influencing your run.
As for only using fire/, I believe the strongest of the argument so far is that bonfire/proc makes a player with little experiences or interest, able to turn bonfire/proc into a 'I win' power. But only using fire/, again you lessen other factors in your test. When I play my fire/storm, I don't find bonfire/proc having that huge of impact because I already have freezing rain that pretty much does the same (area flopping). But on a fire/rad, bonfire/proc should be a different story. So by cutting out any use of your secondary power, and just using genetic IOs, you should have clearer results. In fact, I'm going to do that tonight with my fire/storm with her third build which I don't use. Do 3 runs with and without proc just using my fire powers, then again with using storm. Maybe find try to find a AE mission that has a wide selection of enemies within those levels to be really thorough. |
I suspect that I will still use the Flashfire+Fire Cages combo when they are up since that will give me Containment. The Bonfire+KB2KD proc will fill in whenever Flashfire is recharging. Without the Imps to help killspeed, it takes a while to kill off groups with the damage from unslotted Bonfire and Hot Feet.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
If you're a "Crusty Old Fart" like me, you'll remember that the "original" NERF IT BY HALF *AND* HALF that happened with the AoE Holds of Controllers (over 15 Issues ago!) was to double the recharge time and cut the duration in half. Doing only one of these changes would have been "okay" but it was the Double Whamm-o Nerfbat of doing both together that seriously unbalanced the AoE Holds.
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I agree with you on this.
IMO the issue the hold nerf created is that some sets leaned on them much harder than others. Ice, Gravity, and Mind specifically. The key point here is that for the most part some sets can achieve hard-ish lockdown most of the time, while others struggle.
This is part of why earlier in the thread where I was talking about how I would "nerf" Plant Control, part of that deal would be reducing the recharge of all AoE holds from 240 to 180, both to cushion the blow to Plant and to bring other sets closer to it in terms of lockdown potential.
BTW I posted this in another thread, but 40% knockdown is approximately the same as Sleet/Freezing Rain. The tricky point on it is that Bonfire can self stack (if I remember right--there has rarely been a reason in the past to do that). When self stacked it reaches 64% knockdown--slightly superior to Ice Slick at 57% or so, though I am not sure how much that would matter.
I'm not sure what slotting the Purple Ragnarok: Chance for Knockdown (20% chance) proc would do. It would for sure grant an additional 20% chance for knock every 10 seconds, but I'm not sure if that pulse exactly overlaps with the Bonfire pulses and would sometimes throw enemies out of the fire.
This looks like a decent change to the power+proc. Seems right.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I'll admit it wasn't the route I expected devs to take but as far as fixes go it works for me. It leaves Bonfire completely unchanged for those who want the knockback behavior. For those who want a knockdown it reigns the performance in and puts it on a par with powers like Ice Slick and Earthquake. It's slightly worse than those powers which is fine since it has much better uptime.
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Originally Posted by Wyatt_Earp
Actually, this is exactly what I was thinking... Not sure about everyone else, but without the IO the power is the same. With the IO, the chance to KD is reduced. Seems much more balanced to me. Obviously it will need tested to see if 40% is right, but it's definitely the right direction.
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I never wanted Bonfire+Proc nerfed into oblivion, I simply wanted it brought back in line.
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I would assume that after the nerf, Once something gets knocked down there is a good chance it won't be able to get up in time before getting knocked down again.
iTs 40% kb, 60% nothing
Even if things dont get KD its still a weak burn, I think it will be fine.
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I don't know I don't like the sound of the numbers. I have it in my tornado and bonfire on two different characters I play. Was loving the fact that the baddies weren't flying all over. Just feel I finally get a proc that worth while to my characters and wham overpowered. Bonfire I can understand the damage and short recharge making it really really good. No excuse for tornado.
Sigh
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Well even with the change they still won't be flying all over, they just won't get knocked down as much. The proc still cancels out the knockback it just also reduces the chance to knockdown form 100% to a more reasonable 40%.
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Originally Posted by Morgan78
I don't know I don't like the sound of the numbers. I have it in my tornado and bonfire on two different characters I play. Was loving the fact that the baddies weren't flying all over. Just feel I finally get a proc that worth while to my characters and wham overpowered. Bonfire I can understand the damage and short recharge making it really really good. No excuse for tornado.
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40% of the time, it works -every- time!
I'm happy with the change. I'm glad I got to play around with it before the fix though.
Anyone out there willing to do the math to determine how long a mob can stand in the patch before the law of averages makes it statistically impossible to avoid a tick.
For example, there's a 60% chance the mob will dodge the first tick. 2 seconds later the power will roll the kd again. What are the chances the same mob will dodge the first tick AND the second tick?
How many seconds would it take to make it all but certain that the mob will be be effected?
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36% chance to avoid two ticks in a row. 21.6% chance to avoid three. 13% chance to avoid four. 7.8% chance to avoid five. 4.7% chance to avoid six, which is now below the 5% minimum chance to avoid getting hit by powers that normally require a tohit roll (Bonfire is autohit).
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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
40% of the time, it works -every- time!
I'm happy with the change. I'm glad I got to play around with it before the fix though. Anyone out there willing to do the math to determine how long a mob can stand in the patch before the law of averages makes it statistically impossible to avoid a tick. For example, there's a 60% chance the mob will dodge the first tick. 2 seconds later the power will roll the kd again. What are the chances the same mob will dodge the first tick AND the second tick? How many seconds would it take to make it all but certain that the mob will be be effected? |
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Thanks Arcana. So it seems safe to assume that 4 seconds (first tick as soon as the power is cast, then 4 seconds after that to get to the 3rd tick) is long enough to rely on most of a spawn being knocked down with enemies only having ~ a 20% chance to avoid three ticks in a row.
Good for the fix to autohit 100% Knockdown, good for the devs for noting that this was a mistake fast and reacting in a reasonable way.
Even better for Fire/Dark controllers that can still leverage the overlap between Bonfire and Tar Patch for some slightly less effective stunts than before, but still very effective.
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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
Thanks Arcana. So it seems safe to assume that 4 seconds (first tick as soon as the power is cast, then 4 seconds after that to get to the 3rd tick) is long enough to rely on most of a spawn being knocked down with enemies only having ~ a 20% chance to avoid three ticks in a row.
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Presumably some of the enemies will get back up within that time frame. What I don't currently know is the exact duration of a knockdown animation.
I posted in another thread though that I think my first estimate was wrong. Ice Slick and Bonfire have very similar actual knockdown rates, I think. That's because I forgot that after a knockdown the enemy is temporarily immune to another knockdown for a short period. This gives the enemy time to stand up again, and wastes those ticks. If it turns out that the duration of the lockout is fairly long, then Ice Slick could actually still be worse than Bonfire (and certainly already is in terms of damage, recharge, and duration).
Whatever folks may think of Ice Control, Ice Slick itself isn't exactly a slouch power. I consider this IO a bigger buff to Fire Control (on Dominators mainly) than the entire Gravity rewrite. Maybe if Gravity, chief sufferer of knockback woes, hadn't been excluded from the IO it would be different.
I WISH Gravity had a power as effective and universally applicable as the new Bonfire.
I'll take a Mag 40, 1000* second Hold in Flash Freeze please. I won't be able to use it to farm and by the time it recharges for a second cast everything will be dead. Plus this is an underused power and it's important that people pick it. It won't work on AVs either, so its balanced.
I'm still really annoyed that Repulsion Bomb didn't get the Mag 55 autohit stun and no cast time I was hoping for. I mean Force Field, farming? Hah.
[*Further balanced by the fact that it would actually control enemies for less time than Bonfire against +9s and up.]