The proc on bonefire is beast!!!

First I question how you can be safer (other than when facing knockback resistant mobs) than the mitigation this provides. The mobs are literally unable to fight back. Secondly, your melee characters may be safe and sound, but are they making it safe for the rest of the team? This is negating damage for everyone. Finally, this is a ridiculous amount of mitigation provided by a single enhancement. I don't think I've ever seen such a drastic leap in performance even when comparing an SO build to a fully IOed build.

I don't like the proc in this specific power, and maybe Tornado. I will see it through to be 'fixed', 'nerfed', 'downscaled', or whatever term you prefer. Not to ruin your fun, but to keep rational level of 'balance' in a power-creeped game.

If you don't like this, that's fine by me. I never claimed to want to make people happy, at least not the people who think this change "Isn't very good, it's okay."

>.> Kind of like Infinite Endurance Bio Armor 1.0 was "It's okay. Don't change it though, since it's just okay! OH MY GOD YOU CHANGED IT HOW COULD YOU CHANGE IT THE SET IS RUINED WHY DID YOU DO THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS!"

... Or -200% Regen Bio Armor. "It's okay. Don't change it though, since it's just okay! OH MY GOD YOU CHANGED IT HOW COULD YOU CHANGE IT THE SET IS RUINED WHY DID YOU DO THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS!"

Funny thing: I'm a Power Gamer. I LOVE power. But I also love balance. Go figure how that works! Do you know how it works? It means I will push for a power to be as naturally strong as it possibly can be, with out pushing the outlier line into deep space.

Moreover, unless I see a public-posted quote on the dev stance of the KB to KD IO in Bonfire being "A-Okay!", grain of salt.

Why? Because you're not allowed to share PM information from devs. It's in that contract you electronically agreed to. So I don't believe this information initially with out evidence to back it up.

How much exp do you get from controlling critters?

But to answer your question, depending on the character quite a bit. My Claws/Will Stalker for example can juggle most of a spawn with Shockwave and Energy Torrent. My SS/Regen Brute keeps critters on their butt nearly as much with only Footstomp. My Dark/Fire Tanker has all the minions around her stunned.

There are other examples, but the question is mostly irrelevant. A Squishy with Bonfire is still going to have problems hanging with a well built melee. I don't really mind if this use of the proc is nerfed. My Fire/Rad did plenty well for years without Bonfire and will continue to do so. But we need to keep the 'overpowered' calls in perspective to the game we are playing. This power is a very, very, very high performer with the proc. It very well might be too good for the investment. But 'game breaking' powerful it is not, IMO.

By all this logic, you wouldn't care if it got changed then, right? If it's not a big deal to you, and is thusly not worth using over your Fire Farmers, who cares if it's changed, right?

When you can kill a spawn before they can get up from a KD, you're safer. The Bonfire with this proc is extremely good. But it's still just plain out not better than my Fire/Shield going Shield Charge>FSC>Fireball. Not much lives through that. And anything that is left is no where near as much of a threat to my Scrapper as to my Controller.

Why yes, as dead critters' damage is debuffed by 100%

For the investment (one IO), I would agree that this is too much. But the descriptions being used here are hyperbole.

Umm... how many times, in how many threads do I have to say that. In fact, I said it in the post you quoted. Yes, I don't care if it gets changed. My Fire Controller isn't one of my mains. I slotted one of these and got a giggle out of how powerful it was, then went back to my mains. I expect this to be changed. I just don't want some of the stupid things I've heard people talk about here.

All I expect and hope the devs do if/when they change this is remove the ability of Bonfire to slot Universal Damage sets and give everyone a free unslotter. I'll be A-OK if they do that.

Then let me stop you here and ask this; Are you simply arguing for the sake of arguing? If we ignore the people saying "Nerf Bonfire to fix it!" and such things, and are more specifically focused on "This IO dramatically changed Bonfire from a situational power, as unfortunate as that is, into a must-have that is superior than most of the control forms of other control primaries by a massive level. It needs to be addressed or flatly removed.", are you still going to argue against this by bringing up an entirely different AT with an entirely different function?

Of course Damage is the ultimate mitigation. It's a good thing Bonfire does not-so-small damage, over Earthquake and Ice Slick!

Regardless, it is game-breakingly overpowered. Seeds of Confusion can still potentially miss. So can Fearsome Stare. The only thing Bonfire isn't automatically shutting down? Are Warwolves. I think. And even then I might be wrong.

And it breaks the target cap. And does a lot of damage over time. I do not know what your definition of "game breaking" is, but mine is "One-hundred percent no-risk shuts down an enemy group, while dealing damage, is easily stacked, and breaks the normal CC target cap."

I kind of argue Illusion Control still. That is only with Perma Phantom Army, which is not the easiest or cheapest feat. Sorry, I won't give you this outside of the Super High End of builds.

Plant Control? Sure. Unless you A: Miss against the various enemy groups who get Defense, or B: Hit an enemy group with Confuse.

Could you pick and choose your enemy groups for Seeds of Confusion? Sure. But unless you're a Perma-Dom Dominator, Seeds of Confusion can't shut down every single enemy type in the game sans it's weaknesses.

Last I checked, you don't need "Magnitude 4" KD to shut down a Boss.

If this is all purely on killspeed, which is a nice scarecrow to prevent a blatantly overpowered change to be revoked, you're failing at the point here.

I also like how Blasters, Dominators, and Masterminds somehow don't get Bonfire all of a sudden and this argument is only based on Controllers.

Hint: This gave Blasters and Masterminds the best Control power in the game, and Dominators can shore up Even More Damage now.

No. I'm arguing because the arguments being used here are hyperbole. Where I see a power that is too good with this proc, people are using things like 'game-breaking', which just isn't true.

The fact is, this IO shows that Bonfire with KB was mostly useless and will go back to being so once the change goes in. However, while I don't expect it to happen, this would be a good opportunity for the devs to correct a flawed power. If I were the powers team, I would remove the ability for the power to slot Universal damage, but I would also remove the KB from Bonfire and change it to a chance to KD. Give the critters a chance to survive, but not return the power to a useless state.

I guess the other reason I'm arguing isn't really about the power, but because this IO has just shown how completely useless and annoying Knockback is. I see so much joy now that we have some control over this pernicious effect. While I do understand that Bonfire is overperforming, I just hate to see a power nerfed into uselessness which is exactly what this power will be with KB.

I can't agree with this. Illusion certainly beats it in some metrics, against an AV for example, but a Fire controller is going to lock down far more mobs with KD Bonfire. A high recharge build could get the recharge of Bonfire down to 16-20 seconds, allowing it to be triple cast. You could easily lock down two full x8 spawns. PA would certainly have trouble holding all that aggro.

As for Plant, it could dish out control just as quickly but it's also subject to misses and a lack of magnitude for bosses. KD Bonfire is dealing with bosses much more efficiently.

I'm sorry. I was not aware Crowd Control and Damage were NOT two entirely different metrics.



While nice, it doesn't seem to be actually working. Keep trying, though.

They are it called Foot Stomp. Or should I refer to another power in another melee set?

I was also not aware that Foot Stomp was permanent 100% Knockdown, and recharges long before the Knockdown effect disperses.

Oh wait...

• 59.22 Smashing damage
• 0.67 Knockback (80% chance)
• Recharge time: 20 seconds
• Radius: 15 feet
• Max targets hit: 10

So you're saying that a Brute at almost Max Fury is outdone by Bonfire?

Pffft!

Fire Control even as a whole cannot compete with Super strength or Titaan Weapons ect unless it has a certain build...and even then Melee outshines.

Again, while it's nice? It's still not doing a good job.

You can 'protect the precious thing' as much as you like, but you're only defending it because you know how powerful it is. In fact, if I go through your post history, you are VERY well aware of it's stupid power.

So, no. You just don't want it addressed for pretty blatantly obvious reasons. While I, in using it, am well aware it broke a power over it's knee in a manner so glorious, even a Flying Walrus cannot shade it's glory.

It needs to be addressed.

And sorry? No. You don't fix the power creep by power creeping further. No. Absolutely not.


PS: I find it cute you're willingly ignoring the three other ATs with access to Bonfire.

Some people believe "game breaking" means "I can farm way better than anyone else." Which is fine, if we're going by their definitions, which we will as soon as they release a game we can play.

But while some claims about the synergy are hyperbolic, by this game's definitions its possible Bonfire + KB2KD is game breaking because of its peculiar properties of 2 second cycle, autohit, and 100% effect. Although I haven't tested this myself (but I plan to) Bonfire seems to be capable of incapacitating anything not KB resistant. It could neutralize +20s, because it doesn't need to roll tohit against them and KB is not materially affected by the purple patch.

It doesn't matter if that doesn't translate into the best farming build in the world. Its still very likely game-breaking in the literal sense of the term. Even non-alerting high accuracy confusion is at least degraded by the purple patch. KD isn't, because the duration of KD is not affected by magnitude changes due to the purple patch.

You're the one to talk nerfing things into the ground is no different Ms. Bio Armor.

Also for the record I don't mind for it to be adjusted. I'd rather have that happen than a nerf. I PM'd some Devs anyway discussing the power when it first came out. I'm fine with it getting a change or as is not a complete an utter nerf like everyone is screaming for! Nerf the power Nerf The IO Knockback is the best KD sucks! Bllllaaah it's just...it's just crazy.

This is the story that never ends.

You are aware, like nobody else in that thread, I ONLY advocated a down-scaling of PEAK DNA Absorption AND the -200% Regen being FIXED, right? That last one wasn't even a nerf. IT WAS A BUG FIX.

Wow! At LEAST cite your material correctly.

We're in a semantics battle now.

One metric of the game that is balanced is risk vs reward. Sometimes I wish my Lightning Storms would still fire at the enemy while I casually filed my nails around a corner, but it doesn't.

The devs aim to require you to put yourself at risk of retaliation for the rewards of damage or XP/drops and when one can obtain such without retaliation, it's often balanced for. I can confuse foes and they kill each other with *zero* chance of them harming me...but I get no xp for it. I can fire an attack from around a corner without the foe having a chance to shoot back but I probably won't be able to do so very often.

Now, any simple schmoe can disable a crowd of enemies of *brokenly* large sizes indefinitely without effort or retaliation with but 1 power and 2 slots...


Oh, the power won't be nerfed. Bonfire will still retain its awesomeness of area denial while not being a brain-dead choke point power that also happens to be capable of killing things.

Hmm, why can't players with Bonfire use it like players with caltrops or hurricane? Throw it down and stand on it = anti-melee shield.


[quote] Yeah, I would.

Because a Brute without mez protection, slotted shields and slotted attacks = dead. At minimum, a Brute will have to take 6 powers (2 shields + mez protection, heal/utility + 2 attacks) and 12 slots to even survive let alone kill anything (well, there was one guy who got to lvl 50 with the only attack being Brawl...but then he had it fully slotted too).

Bonfire with 1 extra slot? Equates to more than an armor set of powers + at least 1 attack.

Let me say first, that I've got the KB/KD proc slotted into Bonfire on my permadom Fire/Earth.

Bonfire with this is fun but yes, it's over powered. Is more overpowered than Seeds of Confusion?
Mmmmm. Yes. Though not by a whole lot. The real problem I see is that one IO shouldn't transform any power to such a degree.

I think EvilGeko's idea would work best. No have or have nots, and Bonfire would be decent all around. Make the power into a nice damaging field, with maybe a 30% tick to KD, and it would be very useful, but not a game breaking monster.

You're at extreme levels of IOs. Bonfire is easily perma'd with no IOing aside from the proc that costs nothing to get except a little time.

And even then, Bonfire allows you to control more than the maximum number of targets normally applicable to, say, Flashfire.

Since Perma Flashfire, or Flashfire up every spawn, is only available at extreme IO levels, while Perma Bonfire is available... with minimal SLOTTING? You should begin to see the problem.

At the super high end, Bonfire is probably equal to most Super Powers.

At the point 90% (not a factual number) of the playerbase is at? It's the single most powerful (IE: Broken) ability in the game.