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With +KB in Bonfire? Because what I was asking is whether slotting +KB in a procced Bonfire would allow it to juggle enemies with some KB protection or not. Basically asking for confirmation if it checked against magnitude to see if someone was affected then modified the amount into KD range just before application.|
Originally Posted by MesmerLune
I've been testing it for two days now with just the proc and honestly I've yet to seen one go flying off. it's always a steady knock down.
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I think that's what it does, but I'm not certain, and thus the question I asked. My apologies that it apparently was unclear.
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Originally Posted by Trickshooter
Is it tacky to bring up my own suggestion here? >_>
Edit: Also, I sent this suggestion to Arbiter Hawk and he said that if it really came down to it, they could just easily make the Overwhelming Force proc not affect Bonfire and Tornado, but that they were monitoring them and so far they didn't feel a need to alter anything yet. |
I would be torqued if the crusade for an Enhanced Bonfire nerf stepped on Tornado's toes.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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No argument on the damage - fire tends to get most of its containment from fire cages, which aren't going to play well with bonfire.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I don't exactly agree with this. It's not wrong to say that Bonfire is very, very strong now and probably is more effective than the devs would like. But 'game-breaking' seems a bit much to me.
There are Tanker/Brute/Scrapper combos that can do more damage in more safety than a character using Bonfire. My Fire/Shield Scrapper for instance is still SIGNIFICANTLY stronger in most ways to my Fire/Rad Controller with this proc. The proc narrowed the gap. |
To those playing Fire right now, how much practical use is this? I mean, yes, the mitigation is awesome in a vacuum, but if you try to get some contained damage from fire cages you lose most of the mitigation...
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Tornado isn't a terribly huge deal (Small radius and all), but if they believe Bonfire is fine...|
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
Is it tacky to bring up my own suggestion here? >_>
Edit: Also, I sent this suggestion to Arbiter Hawk and he said that if it really came down to it, they could just easily make the Overwhelming Force proc not affect Bonfire and Tornado, but that they were monitoring them and so far they didn't feel a need to alter anything yet. |
... Hrm. I wonder what I can break on Beta...
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Originally Posted by Greyhame
No argument on the damage - fire tends to get most of its containment from fire cages, which aren't going to play well with bonfire.
To those playing Fire right now, how much practical use is this? I mean, yes, the mitigation is awesome in a vacuum, but if you try to get some contained damage from fire cages you lose most of the mitigation... |
So, for less burst damage, I'm hitting beyond the target cap AoE Damage and 100% Mitigation, leaving my Imps free to eat things while I blow up Single Targets and still sling half-damage fireballs that are made up by Bonfire, and Hotfeet still ticking for half at least?
And then you realize you have Flashfire and you're still doing Containment damage.
Yeeeeah, the loss of Fire Cages for 100% Mitigation that goes beyond the target cap. S'kay.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I would be torqued if the crusade for an Enhanced Bonfire nerf stepped on Tornado's toes.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Tornado isn't a terribly huge deal (Small radius and all)
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I even responded back to Hawk after his comment that these are probably the two powers most people wanted the KB-to-KD effect for, and I'd hope that he'd explore other options if they needed to that didn't include making them exempt.
Franky Reppu if you dont like the proc dont use it but some of us love/like it you dont need to come on here hating on starting something yes its made bonfire good or better so what we play this game to have fun not to start or cause problems or run to devs and nerf this and this and so forth mez was just saying how nice it is really
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Originally Posted by gamer4life3535
Franky Reppu if you dont like the proc dont use it but some of us love/like it you dont need to come on here hating on starting something yes its made bonfire good or better so what we play this game to have fun not to start or cause problems or run to devs and nerf this and this and so forth mez was just saying how nice it is really
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Clearly you dont know reppu. Very opinionated and dislikes "power" in the game. As stated by the devs, they currently see no reason to change this. Immunity from mobs, please, like mobs are that hard to defeat.
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i agree with you there mike and no im kinda new to the forums but ive always read them and looked for help ect well with incarnates any toon can have power and with ios....
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Originally Posted by RevolverMike
Clearly you dont know reppu. Very opinionated and dislikes "power" in the game. As stated by the devs, they currently see no reason to change this. Immunity from mobs, please, like mobs are that hard to defeat.
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I agree with Reppu's sentiment. I do not believe it is ever wise to make a game easy to the point that it no longer requires user input. Such a games rarely hold the attention of anyone. That is why Balance is important.
First of all, take away rage and burn from a ss/fire/ brute and bye bye farmers. Without seeds plant trollers/dom wouldn't do NEARLY as much damage. Hurricane is an amazing power, perhaps not enough to brake the game but good enough to be a must have on most stormies. PA isnt so hard to make perma any more, and yes IT IS OP. I have 5 lvl 50 ill trollers and once they have perma PA they're pretty much indestructible (it's very hard to die when you have 3 tanks that cant be killed pet).
How ever this new bonfire proc doesn't work on all enemies, there are many that have resistance to KD therefor make it completely useless against those enemies.
Honestly, like gamer stated, if you don't like it. Don't play it, period. It's STUPID, to sit here and complain about it.
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Once again if you don't like it. Don't play it.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
I agree with Reppu's sentiment. I do not believe it is ever wise to make a game easy to the point that it no longer requires user input. Such a games rarely hold the attention of anyone. That is why Balance is important.
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That is pretty terrible advice for an MMO for many reasons. I'm unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you view it) not terribly invested in this conversation to explain why in agonizing detail, so I'll mostly repeat myself: Games lacking adequate user input are not games people generally enjoy playing. |
Originally Posted by MesmerLune
Once again if you don't like it. Don't play it.
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Notice I make no mention of difficulty in that statement, as difficulty really does not have as much bearing on whether or not people play something. Farmville, for example, is a game I would consider "easy" but has nevertheless acquired much attention, primarily because it requires an engaging amount of user input.
If you've heard the term "I Win Button" that's basically what is being applied in describing how bonfire works with this IO. While you may enjoy the instant gratification that results from pressing the "I Win Button" the first couple hundred of times, you are eventually going to get bored of it as an intelligent human being who needs to be mentally engaged. Unless you are just incredibly simple, which I very much doubt.
That being said, I haven't actually seen Bonfire in action to determine if I think it is "overpowered" or not, which is why I say I agree with Reppu's sentiment. We may not always like to admit it, but keeping balance in check is important regardless of whether or not you are immediately aware of why.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
That is pretty terrible advice for an MMO for many reasons. I'm unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you view it) not terribly invested in this conversation to explain why in agonizing detail, so I'll mostly repeat myself: Games lacking adequate user input are not games people generally enjoy playing.
Notice I make no mention of difficulty in that statement, as difficulty really does not have as much bearing on whether or not people play something. Farmville, for example, is a game I would consider "easy" but has nevertheless acquired much attention, primarily because it requires an engaging amount of user input. If you've heard the term "I Win Button" that's basically what is being applied in describing how bonfire works with this IO. While you may enjoy the instant gratification that results from pressing the "I Win Button" the first couple hundred of times, you are eventually going to get bored of it as an intelligent human being who needs to be mentally engaged. Unless you are just incredibly simple, which I very much doubt. That being said, I haven't actually seen Bonfire in action to determine if I think it is "overpowered" or not, which is why I say I agree with Reppu's sentiment. We may not always like to admit it, but keeping balance in check is important regardless of whether or not you are immediately aware of why. |
I wouldn't even call Enhanced Bonfire an 'I win' button really (although there may be a outlier or two).
In both my Doms and Trollers, I would be doing less damage by using Enhanced Bonfire strictly to 'pop grease':
I'd lose my sustained AoE Containment damage on my Trollers because I would be refraining from my normal use of Cages.
I'd lose regular AoE damage for the same reason on my Doms.
In both cases, I'd kill more slowly and I'm not really pushing towards that spectrum of play.
When it boils down to efficiency; there's just better powers to slot it in (more 'bang for your buck', so to speak)
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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See, that's an interesting sentiment because you have a wildly varied description of how the power seems to perform with the addition of this new IO. From people who warn of it being overpowered, to people who are saying that it being overpowered is fine, and then all the back to people who are saying it's not useful in slightest. |
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I wouldn't even call Enhanced Bonfire an 'I win' button really (although there may be a outlier or two).
In both my Doms and Trollers, I would be doing less damage by using Enhanced Bonfire strictly to 'pop grease': I'd lose my sustained AoE Containment damage on my Trollers because I would be refraining from my normal use of Cages. I'd lose regular AoE damage for the same reason on my Doms. In both cases, I'd kill more slowly and I'm not really pushing towards that spectrum of play. When it boils down to efficiency; there's just better powers to slot it in (more 'bang for your buck', so to speak) |
Which is precisely why I can't really debate "balance" without even seeing it in action. Offhand though, I think a power that is being described always ready, can knock down enemies to the point in inaction, and does something-greater-than-terrible damage to the enemies it is used on to be overpowered. That is, again, only derived from what I've been told by both people on either side of the argument for whether or not is it overpowered.
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Not saying that it's working as intended, but game-breaking is taking it too far. My melees can quite simply kill quicker and safer than a Fire Control character using this proc. |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Geko, it's 100% mitigation, with no practical AoE cap.
It's the definition of game breaking. I don't want to see the KB return, but this power should be fixed immediately. |
I have a hard time saying a ranged AT is 'broken' or 'game-breaking when I can exceed the performance this IO gives on at least 5 of my characters.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
The combonation is as effective as is earthquake....but still not as cheesy as Tornado....so cant kill the archvillains.
This looks really powerful with minions and weaker enemy types....but it doesnt work on things immune to knockdown/knockback...and its a concentrated area.
Again Tornado chases the enemies...puts them into perpetual un able to do anything with out any needed special enhancement.
But go figure probably the power will get reduced in effectivness just likecwhat has happened to all other powers like this on controllers and such.
After all they cant let tanks and brutes not be king of eternal juggles.....and this might actualy stop tanks and brutes and scrappers and such in pvp battles....
And right there...the rule in this game makes that a no no...thus the power needs to be balanced to not allow it.
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I will say, that for the Blaster EPP; it has no downside (except for catering ones build to make it perma). There's even outliers in this that could take advantage of this kind of leverage (looking at you, AR/ and /Fire).|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
See, that's an interesting sentiment because you have a wildly varied description of how the power seems to perform with the addition of this new IO. From people who warn of it being overpowered, to people who are saying that it being overpowered is fine, and then all the back to people who are saying it's not useful in slightest.
Which is precisely why I can't really debate "balance" without even seeing it in action. Offhand though, I think a power that is being described always ready, can knock down enemies to the point in inaction, and does something-greater-than-terrible damage to the enemies it is used on to be overpowered. That is, again, only derived from what I've been told by both people on either side of the argument for whether or not is it overpowered. |
That's where I see Enhanced Bonfire being of most use; Blasters that can use the extra damage, extra time to shrug off mezzes, mez prevention, control and damage mitigation.
This would be the answer to all Blaster prayers; everyone else? Meh.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
My melees can quite simply kill quicker and safer than a Fire Control character using this proc.
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What kind of control do they have?
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I 100% agree with EG.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Not saying that it's working as intended, but game-breaking is taking it too far. My melees can quite simply kill quicker and safer than a Fire Control character using this proc.
I have a hard time saying a ranged AT is 'broken' or 'game-breaking when I can exceed the performance this IO gives on at least 5 of my characters. |
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
See, that's an interesting sentiment because you have a wildly varied description of how the power seems to perform with the addition of this new IO. From people who warn of it being overpowered, to people who are saying that it being overpowered is fine, and then all the back to people who are saying it's not useful in slightest.
Which is precisely why I can't really debate "balance" without even seeing it in action. Offhand though, I think a power that is being described always ready, can knock down enemies to the point in inaction, and does something-greater-than-terrible damage to the enemies it is used on to be overpowered. That is, again, only derived from what I've been told by both people on either side of the argument for whether or not is it overpowered. |
Here is a video another poster (Premantiss I think) produced of how it works in practice.
Link = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkGy_ubh4eg
Note that he (she?) drags the enemies back into the power. In practice a better way may be to just toss it at them. They can't fight back regardless, and it is castable around walls.
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No, it won't.|
Originally Posted by BViking
With +KB in Bonfire? Because what I was asking is whether slotting +KB in a procced Bonfire would allow it to juggle enemies with some KB protection or not. Basically asking for confirmation if it checked against magnitude to see if someone was affected then modified the amount into KD range just before application.
I think that's what it does, but I'm not certain, and thus the question I asked. My apologies that it apparently was unclear. |
The "proc" is not a proc at all, but simply a knockback enhancement with a value of -99%. Nothing special about it at all, and the same thing Benumb and Weaken have done to critters (and I suppose players in PVP) for years.
So if you slot +KB and -KB in the same power... Well that just kind of defeats the purpose of both.
On the bright side, it functions perfectly well with the enhancement screen which will give you a preview of the net +/- percentage you'll end up with.
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Thank you for an answer to this question. I'm trying to learn more of the underlying mechanics of the game.
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
No, it won't.
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It's significantly more powerful than Earthquake. Bonefire has a 100% chance to knockdown every two seconds. Earthquake has a 7% chance to knockdown every 0.2 seconds.
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Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
The combonation is as effective as is earthquake....but still not as cheesy as Tornado....so cant kill the archvillains.
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If I recall correctly, this power was one of the examples actually brought up as being extremely dangerous when it came to contemplating a way to convert KB to KD years ago. A guaranteed, autohitting, rapid activating knockdown patch.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Here is a video another poster (Premantiss I think) produced of how it works in practice.
Link = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkGy_ubh4eg Note that he (she?) drags the enemies back into the power. In practice a better way may be to just toss it at them. They can't fight back regardless, and it is castable around walls. |
Edit: Incidentally, anyone falling in love with this behavior and thinking it will remain unchanged indefinitely is brain dead.
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Is it tacky to bring up my own suggestion here? >_>
A very easy way to reduce the effectiveness of this IO in those just those two pets without nerfing them or the IO would be to add a tag to each of their KB effects, called "ForceIO". That way, the power would function exactly the same as it always has until the IO was slotted.
Then, they would just need to add the corresponding effect to the Overwhelming Force proc that said, for example: -50% to all effects tagged ForceIO.
This would reduce the chance the KB would occur in both powers down to 50% while the IO was slotted, without affecting:
A) Either power for anyone without the IO slotted.
OR
B) The usefulness of the IO in any other power.
50% might still be too high, but it would be easy for the Devs to adjust because it's just a single line in the Overwhelming Force proc that they'd need to tweak.