Discussion: Tier 9 VIP Reward - Celestial Armor Availability
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-04-24 10:49 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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This pretty sums up my position. I will admit to being biased though, since I am an 8 year vet but that subscription is split 50/50 across a now-defunct EU account and my current one which was originally US. I jumped ship about a year before any sort of unification was proposed. |
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
I was going of the assumption that people had read my previous post a little bit earlier in the thread, (Silly of me to assume people to actually read the thread before responding, I know. *passive aggressive winkey* ) where I proposed the costume sets be put in the market only AFTER they were rotated out of the paragon rewards program and that they keep them restricted to VIPs for purchase. This way T9 VIPs get exclusive "free" access to the costumes for 8-12 months and even after that they remain exclusive to VIPS willing to spend the money.
That's even more exclusiveness than I'd like to see, but I understand the marketing position behind this, so I think this makes for a nice compromise. In that context I don't see people not wanting to spend their tokens on the sets but rather wait a year and then drop money and spend their tokens on consumables instead as a problem. It's a valid choice to make, under that system imo. The devs already said they were going to make rotated out costumes available through different means. I think that putting them up for sale under the above restrictions is the best way of doing that. People caring about elitist exclusives can remain elite and exclusive for up to a year (or forever really, since there will always be costume sets the "plebs" won't have access too at the time under the T9 system), people who want the items but haven't been subscribed for 5+ years or don't have a large chunk of cash to drop on the market at once for tokens can get the items eventually, and Paragon Studios gets extra cash. Everyone wins. Unless you don't want people to have access to the items ever again after they rotated them out... So, I see your argument, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense outside of the "I'm l33t veteran, and I don't want them filthy beggars to get their hands on my stuff EVAR!" mentality. Which I simply don't acknowledge as valid. |
So an opportunity to buy those Vet cossies which are being cycled out would be brilliant.
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It's also self-destructive. Why would you want the game to completely abandon product that they could be using to generate revenue that would help guarantee the continuation of the game? Why would you want new players to know upfront that they're not valued and that their desire to enjoy what other players enjoy is hopeless? I don't want to see the game not make money and I don't want to see the game not welcome new players.|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
So, I see your argument, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense outside of the "I'm l33t veteran, and I don't want them filthy beggars to get their hands on my stuff EVAR!" mentality. Which I simply don't acknowledge as valid.
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Admittedly, I'm almost only an honorary geek and certainly not a full-fledged one, but this is just a game. My enjoyment of the game is not predicated on crushing the dreams -- however slightly -- of other people who play it. It just isn't.
And "*passive aggressive winkey*" slayed me.
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No, but you must be under the delusion that it matters.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You don't expect anyone to take that question seriously do you ?
Or are you under the delusion that you don't live in a world where people pay a premium to get things first, to cut to the head of the line and in general to have their shiny before everyone else ? |
Who cares when someone else gets something? They paid more money than you, either through being a longer-termed subscriber and earning the vet reward tokens sooner, or they decided to pony up more money up front to buy enough points to get those extra tokens now. Either way, they paid more, so they deserve it. I'm sorry if that bothers you, but that's the way the real world works. Why should a game be any different, when you're dealing with real world dollars?
There is no imaginary barrier between the haves and the have-nots that can never be broken. It's just a matter of spending money. Some people have that ability, and some don't, and that's just the breaks. It doesn't mean you are mistreated if you aren't a Tier 9 VIP right now and may not be for several years. It doesn't make those that already have what you don't bad people.
If you want those rewards, you can already get them. There is no need to put them in the game in other ways. It's already as fair as it can be. Either you've already spent the money through years of subscribing, or you're spending it now buying points. Any other way is cheating someone. If they decide to put the Celestial set, or any other set that gets rotated out of the reward choices, into the market system somewhere, I hope it stays VIP exclusive at least, but at best, only be usable if you've already put tokens into the T9 VIP section for other costumes. That way it works the same as it does right now when people had to use tokens to unlock the set. They had to earn it.
Loose --> not tight.
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One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
For most T9s, I think that access to the whole game, the Incarnate system, free zone content, free power sets and free costume sets are probably a bigger hook than 2-3 exclusive costume sets a year.
If they want to keep them vaguely exclusive, just make them free for T9s, 75% off for 4 year vets, 50% off for 3 year vets, 25% off for 2 year vets, and 800 points for everyone else.
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Wow. A lot of valid points on all sides here. But this is really a rehash of the old vet reward program of why should new people have X power that took me Y years to get. In the big picture it is just a shiny virtual avatar armor. Really a silly fight. If someone gets a tier 9 reward months after tier 9 vets had it, and are now also getting a new reward that the lower tier can't get yet, does it matter?
There are only two things that will keep the game alive. 1) the community and 2) the content.
If the community is fighting over the small stuff the game won't survive. It will die fast.
It is a MMO not a solo game. It is social not antisocial.
If the Dev's keep putting flash above content. The game will also die.
It doesn't matter what my avatar looks like if the game is dull, broken, or a grindfest.
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Or hopefully, it will be for sale at a much more reasonable price in the market and you can get it if you want it without waiting 2.5 years or spending 210.00 dollars. Winnah!
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Originally Posted by nytflyr
not a jab at you, but one group of people that seem to be ignored in this argument are the VIPs who aren't t9 yet. we pay every month to play, yet there is some stuff that is not available to us because
a) we haven't been playing the game for YEARS b) haven't spent a bunch of money to "get ahead" so to speak as I stated earlier, if I wanted any of the t9 stuff, I would have to fork over $210.00 extra dollars or wait another 2.5 years... |
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By your estimations, the cost of Celestial varies per person, because some DID spend over $100, $200 or even more to get the amount of tokens to get the set. |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Celestial is not free. It costs reward tokens, which cost money. Of course, it's silly to say that reward tokens are $15 each, because you get lots of other things with a month's subscription or from the points you buy. It's equally silly to claim they cost $0. They cost somewhere in between. The precise amount is of course debatable, but 400 points (the point value of the lowest-point-value and most-widely-usable repeatable) seems like a pretty decent estimate, by which measure Celestial is 1200 points.
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Tokens are free, you get them for free when you buy/earn 1200PP and 1 per each month you are VIP, and they are added with no additional costs to you.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
Your lack of patience and self entitlement and your whole "I WANT IT NAAAOOOOO!!!1!" attitude is something that needs refinement
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Best is to find a common ground for this, and that common ground imo is still being VIP.
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Once Issue 23 Comes out.
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Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
Nice to be reminded, but what time tables are we talking about here? A week? A month?
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I read that and somehow it translated to |
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
Oh, dramatics
 Alas, poor shiny, I knew thee well![/CENTER] There is no line. There is only our own individual line - the reward tree. It's not some line we are all in - we are all on our separate path through that tree. Rewards aren't being handed out with discrimination between who gets what - we are all eligible - some sooner than others based on the longevity of their subscription or rewarded for money spent on the market. Wait your time - and if you are a VIP - you will eventually hit that Tier. Your lack of patience and self entitlement and your whole "I WANT IT NAAAOOOOO!!!1!" attitude is something that needs refinement |
Shouting "MINE MINE MINE MY PRECIOUS"
I am sure you can't grasp that some people don't feel belittled by others having nice things and are actually happy for them.
Just to illustrate how petty your post seems
Yep If paragon wants to go ahead and sell these things for a dollar its fine by me.
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The cost of Celestial is somewhat murky to begin with, since tokens can't be purchased separately. It should be no surprise that it will vary from person to person, as well. So yes, you're correct that the cost varies. Still, some of the tokens so purchased have gone to benefits other than Celestial, so it's not quite accurate to include them fully in Celestial's cost, either.|
Originally Posted by Dark Energon
By your estimations, the cost of Celestial varies per person, because some DID spend over $100, $200 or even more to get the amount of tokens to get the set.
Tokens are free, you get them for free when you buy/earn 1200PP and 1 per each month you are VIP, and they are added with no additional costs to you. |
Tokens are not free. They are part of the purchase, and cannot be purchased separately, and thus are difficult to assign a definite value to, but as you referred to yourself, some people spent $100 or more specifically to get the tokens. If people have to spend money to get it, it is not free. Its cost is also not the full amount they spent, since they got other things for that money as well, but it is not free. It is somewhere in between "free" and "$15 per token". I have estimated the value at about 400 points (not to be confused with $5, since $5 of points also gets you partway to a reward token). If you would like to counter with your own estimate and reasoning for that value, do so, and we can discuss it. But "free" is not a valid estimate, no more than it would be valid to say that Incarnate content is free, and SSAs are free, and all VIP features are free yet still add up to $15 monthly somehow.
Didn't I say I wouldn't post again on this topic? Crap.
Edit: to fix quote tags
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So, is your position that Paragon shouldn't have a tiered reward system for VIPs, only for Premium players?
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Originally Posted by Dark Energon
Best is to find a common ground for this, and that common ground imo is still being VIP.
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No. |
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
So, is your position that Paragon shouldn't have a tiered reward system for VIPs, only for Premium players?
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I'll explain once again... Revamp T9VIP into T-VIP, make it accessible to all and only VIPs regardless of their tier progress.
Climb the Reward tree as usual, only the VIPs can pick to slot a Token in the T-VIP section because they are VIPs. However, if a T4 VIP picks a VIP reward, they are halted in their Reward Tree progress. Also, make it so that only VIPs actually have access to the VIP rewards, meaning, that if you are a VIP who has the whole Fire and Ice costume set, you will not have access to it once you drop to Premium, and if you have a costume with VIP parts, they will reset once you go to a tailor and want to alter that outfit. This to entice people to stay VIP.
Current T9VIPs will loose nothing. If they paid, or played their way to T9VIP, they will not loose any Tokens, any Points or things they have unlocked. Non T9 VIPs, will only have access to the VIP rewards, will not get any bonus points on top of their 400PP and such because they are halted in their reward tree progress.
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The incarnate system and such that is what you pay to have access to.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
The cost of Celestial is somewhat murky to begin with, since tokens can't be purchased separately. It should be no surprise that it will vary from person to person, as well. So yes, you're correct that the cost varies. Still, some of the tokens so purchased have gone to benefits other than Celestial, so it's not quite accurate to include them fully in Celestial's cost, either.
Tokens are not free. They are part of the purchase, and cannot be purchased separately, and thus are difficult to assign a definite value to, but as you referred to yourself, some people spent $100 or more specifically to get the tokens. If people have to spend money to get it, it is not free. Its cost is also not the full amount they spent, since they got other things for that money as well, but it is not free. It is somewhere in between "free" and "$15 per token". I have estimated the value at about 400 points (not to be confused with $5, since $5 of points also gets you partway to a reward token). If you would like to counter with your own estimate and reasoning for that value, do so, and we can discuss it. But "free" is not a valid estimate, no more than it would be valid to say that Incarnate content is free, and SSAs are free, and all VIP features are free yet still add up to $15 monthly somehow. Didn't I say I wouldn't post again on this topic? Crap. Edit: to fix quote tags |
But the tokens are free, they are given for each 1200 Paragon Points bought/earned and after each month of being a VIP.
This works the same way as a promotion in a store, 'buy two get one free' with your store loyalty card, and some stores even have promotions for non card holders that work the same way.
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(SG founded on 12-08-'09, Top100: 08-17-'10, Top50: 12-23-'10, Top25: 12-11-'11)
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Where is that 'Like' button when you need it? >.<
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
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Shouting "MINE MINE MINE MY PRECIOUS" I am sure you can't grasp that some people don't feel belittled by others having nice things and are actually happy for them. Just to illustrate how petty your post seems Yep If paragon wants to go ahead and sell these things for a dollar its fine by me. |
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(SG founded on 12-08-'09, Top100: 08-17-'10, Top50: 12-23-'10, Top25: 12-11-'11)
Crab Spider Nephila on Titan Tracker
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But tokens aren't a promotion. They're an integral part of the system. If you want to make it an analogy, you could compare it to those frequent-buyer cards where you get a free haircut for every 5 you buy (or whatever), and you can be sure that the company is accounting for the freebies they're giving out when they set their prices. This still isn't a great analogy, since frequent-buyer rewards generally require repeat business (as the name implies), while you can easily earn a reward token (or multiple tokens) with a single purchase.|
Originally Posted by Dark Energon
The incarnate system and such that is what you pay to have access to.
But the tokens are free, they are given for each 1200 Paragon Points bought/earned and after each month of being a VIP. This works the same way as a promotion in a store, 'buy two get one free' with your store loyalty card, and some stores even have promotions for non card holders that work the same way. |
So really, can we please stop trying to draw analogies, especially to things that are not particularly analogous, and talk about the actual situation, instead of some other situation that kinda vaguely resembles this one?
People spend money specifically to gain access to t9 costumes. There is no way to gain access to t9 costumes without spending money. If something can only be acquired by spending money, it is not free. Period. I don't want to have to quote the dictionary here, but really, this cannot be disputed. Things that cost money to obtain, that cannot be obtained without a monetary cost, are not free. It's baffling that I even have to argue this.
this thread delivers the funny.
They seem intent on allowing some manner of alternative access, which unless it is fairly onerous in terms of $$$ or time or both will undermine the effectiveness of Tier 9 VIP rewards.
I'll be interesting to see how far they think they can go.
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As a fairly new player, I'm finding it hilarious for a different reason.
To each their own!
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well, except that you have to pay cash for them.|
Originally Posted by Dark Energon
But the tokens are free.....
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but otherwise, yeah, totally.
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I only see 2 ways to make this work while keeping both sides semi-satisfied.
Option 1:Remove the glow, put them on the market for a regular price and keep the glowing version for tier 9 so its exclusive and retains value. And to top it off the people that think the glow is gaudy will have the option to buy a simpler version.
Option 2: Leave one of the packs out, like the weapons and auras. This way it keeps something exclusive for tier 9 so the next time its rotated in people have a reason to throw cash at it.
Because in the end its all about money. If they want people to care about these things the next time they rotate through, something about them should be exclusive. And by then the people that complain about not having them now should have acquired enough tokens to get the real deal.
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Meh. Tier 9 VIP players have exclusive access to these new costume sets at least 6 months (probably more like 9-12 months) before they make them available outside of the Paragon Rewards program.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
They seem intent on allowing some manner of alternative access, which unless it is fairly onerous in terms of $$$ or time or both will undermine the effectiveness of Tier 9 VIP rewards.
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VIPs have the option of spending Reward Tokens on them, for which there are far fewer alternatives than if one were to buy a costume set with Paragon Points. There are literally over 1000 items in the store right now vying for your points, versus 6 T9VIP one-shots and 6 T9 repeatables.
It really boils down to what each individual player wants to do. I think the entitlement issues will dissipate rather quickly once they tell us exactly how one will be able to access the Celestial Armor set outside of T9VIP. Those that hate that they had to spend tokens that could have otherwise been spent will stop doing so with the knowledge that they can get those same costume parts in the future through an alternate path. Those that can't afford to bump up their account to T9VIP will get the shiny costume set that they want, but only after waiting and seeing all the VIPs playing with it first.
And the players who want these things to remain Tier 9 VIP forever and ever with no alternate method of access? They can go spin on it, because that's not what's best for the game or the community as a whole.
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| I'll be interesting to see how far they think they can go. |
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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"you'll have EXCLUSIVE ACCESS for a while before everyone gets the stuff!" makes an uninspiring sales pitch.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Meh. Tier 9 VIP players have exclusive access to these new costume sets at least 6 months (probably more like 9-12 months) before they make them available outside of the Paragon Rewards program.
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Not interested in re-arguing this topic, so I'll just note costumes are the big draw for Tier 9 VIP and Paragon takes a risk by undermining that exclusivity.
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*shrug* It works just fine for me.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
"you'll have EXCLUSIVE ACCESS for a while before everyone gets the stuff!" makes an uninspiring sales pitch.
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But again, that's just me. I am not the alpha and the omega of the CoH customer base.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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We have a lot of folk around here who don't worry about this kind of thing and could care less about exclusivity, which is nice from a community standpoint.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
*shrug* It works just fine for me.
But again, that's just me. I am not the alpha and the omega of the CoH customer base. |
But from a business standpoint, when you promote a reward system centered largely around that exclusivity you undermine it at your own peril.
Hopefully they get the price point right and can generate more income from the non-9s without agitating the 9's too much.
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I'd say that a strong and happy community is a better business decision than exclusive rewards, but honestly, you are not someone I'm going to argue with when it comes to making money. I've seen your posts in the Market forums.
But I'd also agree that they should probably sell any former T9 VIP costume items at a higher price than standard costume sets, perhaps even double or triple. That keeps up an illusion of exclusivity, if nothing else.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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a) we haven't been playing the game for YEARS
b) haven't spent a bunch of money to "get ahead" so to speak
as I stated earlier, if I wanted any of the t9 stuff, I would have to fork over $210.00 extra dollars or wait another 2.5 years...
Oh, no, wait, that's Voodoogirl's argument, not mine. Got it mixed up there.
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