By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-04-16 22:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Rockshock
I have absolutely no interest in Pvp and no desire to see more of it in game.
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The unpleasant/nice people ratio goes _way_ up the second you place people in conflict for any reason IRL or in-game.
With minimal additional plot/story, casting the flaws of the game in _stark_ contrast and an increased likelihood of undesirables. Why would I ever spend my recreation time volunteering for this?
Primarily because the PvP system in CoH is a steaming pile of [Censored].
Why don't I do PvP? There's a very clear answer to that: Why should I? Why on earth would I want to do something that causes bad feelings?
Either I lose, then I feel bad. Or I win, then another player feels bad. That's a loss/loss-scenario! Playing this game is supposed to be fun, but in my humble opinion it should not be fun at the cost of somebody else's fun.
Just look at true PvP games like that very successful and famous DotA clone whose initials seem to indicate that somebody was laughing hard. Listen to the players talk to each other. They get truly angry! They curse at each other, even at their team members!
When I spend some free time playing games, I want to have a good time. I want to enjoy playing. PvP requires me to spoil somebody else's fun in order to have fun myself. I don't want to do that, therefore I don't PvP.
10joy
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Originally Posted by Tenjoy
Why don't I do PvP? There's a very clear answer to that: Why should I? Why on earth would I want to do something that causes bad feelings?
Either I lose, then I feel bad. Or I win, then another player feels bad. That's a loss/loss-scenario! Playing this game is supposed to be fun, but in my humble opinion it should not be fun at the cost of somebody else's fun. Just look at true PvP games like that very successful and famous DotA clone whose initials seem to indicate that somebody was laughing hard. Listen to the players talk to each other. They get truly angry! They curse at each other, even at their team members! When I spend some free time playing games, I want to have a good time. I want to enjoy playing. PvP requires me to spoil somebody else's fun in order to have fun myself. I don't want to do that, therefore I don't PvP. 10joy |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
It's not from a lack of desire, I assure you.
I keep bringing it up though...every month, like clockwork  |
It's not fun for me in how it is setup in this game and I have doubts as to whether it can really work well with the way our powers work.
It's not like a shooting game where everyone is equal.
In theory it could be a lot of fun (heroes vs villains, Praetorians vs Primals) but it just isn't.
I don't PvP because IMO the reward rate plus cool down aren't worth the time
Answer:
A) The arena is unusable, I crash every time trying to use it.
B) Waiting for 8 people to fill an arena match never happens.
C) I'm usually outclassed by someone with PvP IO's and damage procs.
D) Stalkers are still broken and unfun to fight against.
E) Travel Supression.
F) PvP IO drop rates.
G) All of the above.
The investment in order to be marginally sucessful in PvP, outweighs what I get out of it, and I have tried multiple times, different builds, but in the end there's just no balance.
I have little interest in PvP in games were balance is inherently impossible to achieve. I reserve my PvP time for games that are actually designed around it. Like Starcraft and sequels or the odd FPS.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
I don't PvP because I have never really liked it... in any game. I have not played games due to PvP being anything close to a major component. It's why I stopped playing FPSs... they are pretty much all about PvP now it seems.
And the comment above about trash talk just being part of it? I can't get around the fact that it seems unnnecessary to me, no matter how ya justify it. What didn't help the cause in this game was all tbhe powerleveling and massive min/maxing that went along with PvP. Things I hate doing. I almost never IO a character as it is, let alone feeling required to get the expensive ones and all the Acccolades just to compete. And behind all of that is an underlying personality quirk of mine. I hate not being able to succeed at things. Its why when I buy a game involving two-player I can never just play it for the first time with a friend. I have to solo for a while to teach myself how it works. In PvP, the only way to get better is to play more, there is no such thing as learning solo first. |
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Originally Posted by MisterD
Try not to mistake this for a personal attack but..some of this is RUBBISH. I play on freedom and virtue, and I see JUST as much, if not more, PLing going on by 100% pvers! Hell, I am in atlas park now, and I could ask for an sg invite to Groups who never ever pvp..yet farm constantly.
I freely admit that I often trash talk people in pvp zones about how few badges they have (lolz, pve IS hard dude!) but I can see their point. See the other side. Those pve's who love pve yet hate pvp..they NEVER have to pvp. Ever. The pvp crowd who hate or dont care for pve..guess what..they still have to do it to get to 50, before they can pvp (leaving aside non 50 pvp zones). |
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Originally Posted by Tenjoy
Why don't I do PvP? There's a very clear answer to that: Why should I? Why on earth would I want to do something that causes bad feelings?
Either I lose, then I feel bad. Or I win, then another player feels bad. That's a loss/loss-scenario! Playing this game is supposed to be fun, but in my humble opinion it should not be fun at the cost of somebody else's fun. Just look at true PvP games like that very successful and famous DotA clone whose initials seem to indicate that somebody was laughing hard. Listen to the players talk to each other. They get truly angry! They curse at each other, even at their team members! When I spend some free time playing games, I want to have a good time. I want to enjoy playing. PvP requires me to spoil somebody else's fun in order to have fun myself. I don't want to do that, therefore I don't PvP. 10joy |
ITs been interesting reading peoples reasons, from changes made in i13 to the loud minority of jerks.
Here is my take on it.
I tried PVP back when the zones were filled. I constantly got ganked within 30 seconds of walking into the zone/out of the hospital. Not fun. So I stopped.
I decided to try it again a couple years ago, post i13. Ran a monthly PVP night in coordination with my show on The Cape. Started out fantastic. Picked a different show every night. New people who had no PVP'd before got into it. Lots of fun were had. People were not jerks. Builds for PvE worked to an extent, even those who were PVP'd out were not totally invincible. For someone like me who is not a build expert, nor wants to be, it was 1000 times better.
I stopped again because people lost interest in doing it. I'd get only 2 people out to my shows, and it became less fun with fewer people.
Now the truth as I see it is
A) people stopped because of the changes in I13 and were not willing to adjust because they couldn't do things the old way. News flash, the PVE game has changed drastically also, and you have had to adjust in that. Same Difference.
B) the Jerkish Minority pissed enough people off that PvP has a nasty stigma to it, and thereby people refuse to even give it a chance now. This I can see and understand. Unfortunately with those who would PVP before who are left here to just complain about PVP all it does now it reinforce that thought, even though the people complaining were not part of the jerks. Perception is reality.
CoH would conceptually be a fantastic PVP game.
Mechanically, it is not.
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Originally Posted by eth_Nargy
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Having worked on two PVP centric MMO's prior to COH, I understand this very well. This is why we continue to advocate for those who remain.
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the ATs were balanced against the environment rather than each other...as such PvP has been loaded with problems since some ATs are better against other players than they are against environmental enemies....
also, PvP will attract people that want easy wins against an opponent they can actually annoy as adverse a computer....stand and fight isn't going to happen save by choice, rarely, because there are no real consequences for running away.
so yeah, between the fact that it is more or less an after-thought pegged onto the game and the personality types often involved...not interested anymore....did it a little bit at the beginning...but the players killed it for me...the last time I PvPed it was in RV and my team was there for badge reasons...we basically ran over everything, but we also weren't actively trying to hunt down players so never chased when they ran...which let us focus on our task of hunting AVs
Well, first they changed everything! Drastically. And I it became meh with those change.
Then I got tired of a people whining in pvp zones about interrupted duels. You'd think they'd learn from their own non stop whining, that pvp zone means fair game and to take dueling to arenas.
But instead they continue to whine. And it leaves you going *sigh* because their whining turns into insults in broadcast.
So many things bugged me about this post that I had to reply.
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Why I don't pvp:
1. It has never been about skill. It has always been about uber builds and ganging up on one or two people (referencing zone pvp post issue 9) |
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Why I don't pvp:
2. The absolute adolescent trash talking is annoying after 5 minutes |
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Why I don't pvp:
3. In reference to above: the homophobic and racists remarks are disgusting and seen as funny and acceptable - I don't hang around racist or homophobes irl why would I do it in my leisure time? |
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Why I don't pvp:
4. The rewards - Hmm let's see - a minuscule chance at a worthless recipe drop - no thanks. Sure there are badges, but I honestly could care less about the pvp badges. |
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Why I don't pvp:
5. Stand and fight already - zone pvp is run run run run phase run run run run - boring. |
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Why I don't pvp:
I actually preferred pvp issue 7-9 with SOs when it actually took skill. And to those who whine that Issue 13 killed pvp - no the pvp community killed pvp. Back in the day pvp was about skill and people would actually gratz others when they were beaten - now it's all about slinging profanity and nothing more than a huge pissing contest. |
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Why I don't pvp:
If you want a sample of zone pvp - watch the Arena Chat channel for about an hour - the complete infantile "conversations" will show you the maturity level of the pvp community. |
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Originally Posted by DJ_Shecky
A) people stopped because of the changes in I13 and were not willing to adjust because they couldn't do things the old way. News flash, the PVE game has changed drastically also, and you have had to adjust in that. Same Difference.
B) the Jerkish Minority pissed enough people off that PvP has a nasty stigma to it, and thereby people refuse to even give it a chance now. This I can see and understand. Unfortunately with those who would PVP before who are left here to just complain about PVP all it does now it reinforce that thought, even though the people complaining were not part of the jerks. Perception is reality. |
I'm not interested in competition, I'm not interested in challenge, I'm not interested in a fair fight. Considering that's pretty much the sum total of perks people list to me when they try to promote PvP, in this game or any other, I simply see no reason to bother. The few times I have tried PvP, back when Anti-Cat was organising it, it was fun to chat and joke with people (Lady Athyna's "That's not my storm cloud! My storm cloud's way over there!" still cracks me up even today), but what was distinctly UNfun was the actual game. Anti-Cat was the only Blaster, so obviously everyone went after him, and most of us who had SR basically ignored each other because we couldn't do much.
I'm sure better, dedicated PvP players than me would have done a lot better, but here's the thing - I'm not a dedicated, good PvP player. I'm mediocre at best, and usually pretty dang weak. Most of the time, I'm playing the kind of role which would be relegated to trash NPC critters - that of the easy kill to provide tension. Considering I don't enjoy losing and it more motivates me to find a better game than it does to "lrn2ply," I simply don't do that.
The simple fact of the matter is that PvP has to be "fair," so I can never have a distinct advantage over my enemies. If the game is unballanced and I COULD have a distinct advantage, the truth of the matter is that my enemies have said advantage over me and I can never score a kill. And even in the best, most fair playing environments, for one player to win, another has to lose, and I don't want to be the one to lose. Since I know I can't be the one to win every time or I'd take someone out of his skin with anger, I simply don't do it.
I like an unfair game that lets me curb-stomp my enemies. I know this can't happen against players. I therefore don't do PvP. Ever. I do play a few PvP-centric games, and most of the time I leave angry and unsatisfied. But god damn it! There's all of ONE decent game about tanks, and it's online battle arena only.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by SmegHead
No the devs knowingly killed pvp. I think it was lighthouse that screwed up and in so many words told us the changes weren't made for pvpers, they were made for the people that don't pvp. They knew it would infuriate the current PvP crowd but they did it anyway in hopes to bring in more people to pvp then they lost. It had the opposite effect and within months the PvP community as I knew it was gone.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Why I don't pvp:
1. It has never been about skill. It has always been about uber builds and ganging up on one or two people (referencing zone pvp post issue 9) 2. The absolute adolescent trash talking is annoying after 5 minutes 3. In reference to above: the homophobic and racists remarks are disgusting and seen as funny and acceptable - I don't hang around racist or homophobes irl why would I do it in my leisure time? 4. The rewards - Hmm let's see - a minuscule chance at a worthless recipe drop - no thanks. Sure there are badges, but I honestly could care less about the pvp badges. 5. Stand and fight already - zone pvp is run run run run phase run run run run - boring. Every now and then some friends and I get together and arena for fun - and it is fun because we don't treat it seriously or get angry and start trash talking each other. I actually preferred pvp issue 7-9 with SOs when it actually took skill. And to those who whine that Issue 13 killed pvp - no the pvp community killed pvp. Back in the day pvp was about skill and people would actually gratz others when they were beaten - now it's all about slinging profanity and nothing more than a huge pissing contest. If you want a sample of zone pvp - watch the Arena Chat channel for about an hour - the complete infantile "conversations" will show you the maturity level of the pvp community. tldr; the pvp community is rude and the lack of rewards make pvp not worthwhile. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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PvP is like Farming!
You need the right build. And for PvP this is worse, because people have sets they want to PvP with but they're just suckie to use in PvP.
The aforementioned changes is why I no longer pvp.
I was in RV everyday before those changes were made.
I remember when i4 hit Test and looking at the Arena interface -- I was surprised to see options for ladders and rankings. I was thinking, "Wow, it looks like the devs went all out." And then I realized that those options were simply hooks for future systems. And those systems never showed up.
That, to me, pretty much sums PvP in CoH: unfinished; unpolished; poorly supported.
Although ... "poorly supported" is a phrase that doesn't quite capture what happened on the dev side. When i4 hit, people said "rewards," "zones," "minigames," and "objectives", things that were all implemented with i6 and i7. And still, masses of people didn't show up. Or they showed up for the sole purpose of farming rewards.
On the community side? Egg nerf. So few people in the community, so much rage.
There's a weird toxicity involving PvP that is tough to summarize. There's something about a sprawling powers system that's tough (probably impossible) to balance, lack of dev interest to constantly or at least consistently work on PvP, and the game's overall casual-friendly PvE experience and something less than casual-friendly PvP experience that all adds up to "meh."
CoH has some of the best PVE content I've seen in a MMO, so I'm okay with ignoring PVP. PVP is something that can't be fixed without redoing the game engine it seems.
