So... why aren't YOU pvp-ing?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-04-16 22:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Actually, I do want to say a few words about "the community." I put that in brackets because I know what I'm about to say isn't actually representative of the PvP community at large or PvP-ers in general, but it's anecdotes like mine that inform opinion regardless.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
I don't know about you, but none of the posters here citing toxicity as a reason they don't pvp strike me as the type to otherwise be hardcore pvpers. They strike me as being possibly on the cusp of perhaps maybe being interested, but would rather not deal with the drama, so part of their first impression of the "community" is language broadcasted in the zone that is absolutely not tolerated anywhere else in the game, or in life. At least not the circles I run in.
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Throughout my entire gameplay in City of Heroes, I've never refused to keep any chat channel in my tabs. I kept Broadcast in even when passing through Atlas Park, forcing me to experience the absolute dreck that that used to be. I kept it in, just in case. I didn't remove Help from my tabs when the game went F2P and it became essentially a channel about the DFB. Maybe someone's asking questions, who knows? I've never taken a channel off completely, they all get recorded somewhere.
Except Arena. I kept an eye on that channel for about two days after I4 launched, and I rolled my eyes at what was going on in there more than the rest of the eight ******* years I've spent here combined. I don't even remember all the crap that was said back then - I've blocked it from my mind - but it was like a zoo. It was like the parents of a whole class of 8-year-olds just simultaneously left the house and the 8-year-olds were all on sugar rush and trying to outdo each other with how badly they could behave.
I'm sure Arena isn't like that these days... I'm pretty sure it's completely dead, but like I said - it's out of my tabs. Hell, I'm pretty sure it wasn't like that for more than a month after I4, if it was like that for more than a week. But this kind of crap is the one that sticks out in my mind the most about what represented PvP in this game. That god damn channel full of the kind of ******** I want to reach through my screen and punch.
And then there was the... What was it called? The PvP forum that was essentially free for all? Yeah, the one people went to to be jerks to each other, and they all thought it was cool. I set foot over there once, saw what was being posted and got the hell out of there in a hurry.
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I know the PvP community is not evil or full of jerks. The problem is that a lot of people have had experiences like mine, which make it feel hat way. I can deal with a few jerks in a community when it feels like the community itself disapproves of their actions. Even here, when we get the occasional dedicated troll, people will mostly either ignore him or otherwise put him down. You don't have other trolls coming out of the woodwork to cause even more trouble. That's never been the impression I got from any PvP-centric boards that had to do with strangers. It always feels like being a jerk is condoned and expected and asking others to play nice is like pulling your pants down and bending over.
I'm sure it's just a case of a few very vocal ********, but if that's my first experience with PvP, I'm probably not going to want to have a second experience.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I was going from earlier comments that sounded exactly like that (in their own words,) just to be clear. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I think you misunderstand the (my) sentiment, and I fear others misrepresent it, as well. For me, it's less a case of "O, noes! I'm hurting other people and I care about their feelings so much!" as it is a case of "U-ho. If I can do that to someone else, someone else can do this to me, and that would suck!" I don't have a problem beating other people in a competitive much, to the extent that I don't feel guilty, even when it's clear I'm unfairly superior to them. What I have a problem with, however, and ESPECIALLY when I hand someone his *** for the fifth time in a row, is that I can't help but see myself in the same situation. |
And honestly, if I'm beating someone over and over again, they're also getting tells from me - for instance, some time back (given how (in)active the zones are) I had a blaster of some flavor - AR, I believe - attack my Thug/Poison MM in... IIRC, it was a lowbie, so probably Bloody Bay. Now, to be fair, just from having more powers (and thanks to SSKing, all tiers of pets - that really needs disabling in PVP zones, IMHO) it was a mismatch. He was, at best, on DOs or low level IOs.
IIRC, I checked the badges and saw it was a fairly new player, so I told him he'd just keep having trouble, explained how masterminds and bodyguard worked, asked if he had any AOEs (he didn't) and how that would work to his advantage - plus how to set up a second build. Yeah, he died several times, but he did learn and I'm fairly sure if he stuck around the game he'd probably stick his nose back in the zones. (I alt so much on every server that I have no idea if he has or not. Don't even recall his name.)
Even if I'm on the losing side and the other side isn't talking to me, I'm learning something about their capabilities and my own. Even if I lose 5x in a row.
You meantion you'll fight "less hard" - ok, to a point, I can see it, but to me that's really doing *everyone* a disservice. If I'm having a hard time mountain climbing, I need to work on my climbing and technique, build strength and endurance, lose weight - I don't need the mountain bulldozed down.
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| I like PvE because in there, no-one ever loses. Well, OK, sometimes we do, but I do my best to avoid failable missions, and to drop them or "cheat" whenever I do. And when I say no-one loses, I don't praise this because I want other people to not lose. I praise it because I don't want I!!! to be the one who loses. |
It has to be a legitimate fail, though. Not "Stop So-and-so from escaping!" when they're five feet from the door, so you enter the mission and auto-fail or they escape as you step off the elevator. Sometimes just a fail, more fun, though, if you have a way of winning but it's not just a gimme (like most missions are.) (I happen to like the "Stop 30 Fir Bolg from escaping" mission, for instance, and try to see how close to zero escapes I can get - I've hit zero quite a few times.)
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
I don't know about you, but none of the posters here citing toxicity as a reason they don't pvp strike me as the type to otherwise be hardcore pvpers. They strike me as being possibly on the cusp of perhaps maybe being interested, but would rather not deal with the drama, so part of their first impression of the "community" is language broadcasted in the zone that is absolutely not tolerated anywhere else in the game, or in life. At least not the circles I run in.
Mayhaps for some, that is enough for them to turn around and exit the zone feeling as though there is absolutely no loss to them whatsoever. I don't think they are that interested in pvp, and whatever smidgen of interest they may have had was smothered instantly. They don't care. And a few of the ones that should care, the ones that may be interested in actually growing the community are calling these people idiots. Hollow indeed. |
The desire to compete is not synonymous with the desire to harass other players. The case for defense of the PVP community that is being brought up again and again is that the negative aspects of the PVP community are still a minority; the rest of the PVPers are respectful and much more enjoyable. This itself indicates that trash talk and competition aren't good bedfellows, and that the other PVPers don't enjoy the harassment either. The stress of the drama is amplified in a competitive environment due to the stress from the effort needed to succeed and be in that competitive environment, so the effects of insults in PVP are more potent than those in PVE.
PVP communities in general don't start out bad. They just end up that way through time. The generation shift that occurs is the exodus of respectful players driven out due to the toxic nature the community. Tons of people here are ex-PVPers, after all. The attitudes of players does quite a bit more than just discourage via yelling swear words at someone. The problem with a killer community (I'm using that term now) is most accurately characterized by the absence of personality that exists in the rest of the game. The best experiences in one's life are never when they are alone. Ignoring the problematic aspects of a community doesn't suddenly bring the satisfaction that a good community immediately has. So, walking into an environment where you have to ignore people either mentally or by game function while also trying to avoid their antics (PVP lets you exact your will on someone else directly with no words) in a search to find someone with whom you can enjoy the PVP aspect isn't fun. It is someone trying to force themselves to have fun where they clearly aren't. It is absurd to expect anyone to do this.
So they don't. The reason why so many only PVP in an arena with friends is because this is fun while providing the atmosphere that zone PVP lacks. Here it isn't even about I13's game mechanics. The desire to have competition is clearly present, however CoX isn't an adequate medium to express it (which is also why many players just go elsewhere for PVP).
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I think the issue is many play the game for pure relaxation. They don't play it to compete or feel any stress. COH has always been called basically a lazy beat em up by many folks I've talked to who have played it.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I was going from earlier comments that sounded exactly like that (in their own words,) just to be clear.
And honestly, if I'm beating someone over and over again, they're also getting tells from me - for instance, some time back (given how (in)active the zones are) I had a blaster of some flavor - AR, I believe - attack my Thug/Poison MM in... IIRC, it was a lowbie, so probably Bloody Bay. Now, to be fair, just from having more powers (and thanks to SSKing, all tiers of pets - that really needs disabling in PVP zones, IMHO) it was a mismatch. He was, at best, on DOs or low level IOs. IIRC, I checked the badges and saw it was a fairly new player, so I told him he'd just keep having trouble, explained how masterminds and bodyguard worked, asked if he had any AOEs (he didn't) and how that would work to his advantage - plus how to set up a second build. Yeah, he died several times, but he did learn and I'm fairly sure if he stuck around the game he'd probably stick his nose back in the zones. (I alt so much on every server that I have no idea if he has or not. Don't even recall his name.) Even if I'm on the losing side and the other side isn't talking to me, I'm learning something about their capabilities and my own. Even if I lose 5x in a row. You meantion you'll fight "less hard" - ok, to a point, I can see it, but to me that's really doing *everyone* a disservice. If I'm having a hard time mountain climbing, I need to work on my climbing and technique, build strength and endurance, lose weight - I don't need the mountain bulldozed down. See... that's one of the things we'll disagree on. I'd *love* to see more places in PVE that we can fail - or where even the best outcome is a draw. The Terra Conspiracy, for instance. Or not being able to save your clone in Jenny Adair's arc. Or, the one we had a lot of arguing over, the WWD SSAs. It has to be a legitimate fail, though. Not "Stop So-and-so from escaping!" when they're five feet from the door, so you enter the mission and auto-fail or they escape as you step off the elevator. Sometimes just a fail, more fun, though, if you have a way of winning but it's not just a gimme (like most missions are.) (I happen to like the "Stop 30 Fir Bolg from escaping" mission, for instance, and try to see how close to zero escapes I can get - I've hit zero quite a few times.) |
It's the one thing I keep seeing when these discussions keep coming up. Some people play video games to relax after a hard day at work, school, etc. As an escape. No amount of "turn this off so the chat doesn't bother you" or "you can get better if you practice" is EVER going to convince to give an activity they don't find fun (stress and competing in a game that's supposed to be their escape) is going to convince them to pvp.
Now folks who like that, that's fine for them. And I'll fight tooth an nail to get their feature the attention it deserves. (Same as AE and bases).
I just think it's a bit futile to try to convince folks who don't find pvp fun that it's fun. Also if a person doesn't have to turn off bcast or zone while pveing, then telling them "before you even step foot into this activity" you should turn off zone or b-cast is REALLY NOT going to convince them to want to do that activity. The easy answer is . . . simply NOT to do that activity.
EDIT: To be clear, I think it's also one of the reasons that folks fight tooth and nail when any kind of challenge is introduced into the base game. I'd bet there is significant number of people who play this game who don't post on the forums, don't min max, couldn't care less about IOs, purples, etc and are content to just play the game at -1 or +0 up till 50. Which probably takes them 2-3 years to reach.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Many of us have absolute zero desire to engage in pvp. Why not dedicate a pvp only server? Let them rule their own piece of land.
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We will have to disagree, yes, because I am incapable of being convinced to approve of this. I like guaranteed success. Sure, I can handle losing, so long as the mission doesn't fail and I can either keep retrying it or just return and pick up where I left off. If find no joy in losing. Ever for any reason. In much the same way, I find no joy in the threat of loss. That's why I play games - because they're not like real life and they can let me win. You can't do that against other people.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
See... that's one of the things we'll disagree on. I'd *love* to see more places in PVE that we can fail - or where even the best outcome is a draw. The Terra Conspiracy, for instance. Or not being able to save your clone in Jenny Adair's arc. Or, the one we had a lot of arguing over, the WWD SSAs.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Actual MMOs that were designed from the ground up to be a "pvp/free-for-all" type of MMO never last long...|
Originally Posted by Hell Razer
Many of us have absolute zero desire to engage in pvp. Why not dedicate a pvp only server? Let them rule their own piece of land.
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So no real point to having a "pvp only" server for CoH.
Just saying
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
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Revert Castle's changes.
There, I would PVP again. 
There are people who want an actual challenge, with a chance of failure, and then there are people who just want a guaranteed win over an inferior foe to make them feel better.
Note that this applies to PvP as much as PvE. 
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Because the game developers don't understand how PVP works in a MMORPG.
They are more than welcome to prove me wrong 
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That depends. I want my challenge to be my opponents skill, rather than how the RNG is feeling that time of day.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
There are people who want an actual challenge, with a chance of failure, and then there are people who just want a guaranteed win over an inferior foe to make them feel better.
Note that this applies to PvP as much as PvE. |
If I am a superior player, I feel I should beat inferior players 100% of the time if I play -flawlessly-. The good part is, I make mistakes, and in a game with 3-D movement and a ton of power, those mistakes happen a lot. I rarely play flawlessly and time everything to go just as I want it to, but if I nail it, I don't want to lose to someone who isn't as good of a player as I am.
If I lose, I want it to be my fault, not because 1% of the time a worse player will beat me.
I don't want a guranteed win, except on worse players, assuming I don't mess up. I don't think that's too much to ask for. I never beat better players without them making a mistake. We all do eventually.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
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Hey now, that was called initiation to some. ;-)|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Please open your Options menu. Note the prompt option to accept teleport. That was not put there from "indifferent" being the worst people in PVE could be. That was from people inviting lowbies to teams and dropping them from tall buildings into mobs of enemies. Note this was occurring pre-PVP. |
Na, it was just something you did to someone on your friends list when everybody was bored or trying to build up the team or waiting on a BIO....
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I still wouldn't.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Revert Castle's changes.
There, I would PVP again. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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EVE seems to be doing just fine.
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Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
Actual MMOs that were designed from the ground up to be a "pvp/free-for-all" type of MMO never last long...
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Eve's always been the exception to the rule. In part, not being based on a diku mud at all helps... in part, NOT even giving a semblance of fairness and balance between new and veteran players kinda eliminates any unrealistic expectations to get upset over.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
EVE seems to be doing just fine.
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That and new players still have their 'uses'. |
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Eve's always been the exception to the rule. In part, not being based on a diku mud at all helps... in part, NOT even giving a semblance of fairness and balance between new and veteran players kinda eliminates any unrealistic expectations to get upset over.
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Once you get your first decent ship, a fleet will usually deploy you in swarms against the larger ships that lack point defenses.
The joy to having what veteran players would consider a 'throwaway ship' (like the by now infamous Rifter) is you'll often have Corps providing them for you because the cost to manafacture them was a drop in the ocean (compared to say a Titan or Mothership).
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
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I'm pretty sure they understand pvp a lot more than you give them credit for. The changes to CoX pvp happened 3.5 years ago and the development team has seen significant changes since then. Frankly the reason nothing is done with pvp; just like bases, is because it is not financially feasible to devote time to something that has a proven record of not being financially profitable. There were NUMEROUS pvpers who had many issues with pre i13 pvp - so to say that reverting pvp to pre i13 would bring back ANY of those people is fallacious. |
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Because the game developers don't understand how PVP works in a MMORPG.
They are more than welcome to prove me wrong |
Pvp has never been a huge focus of this game and rightfully so as this is a PVE game that had some pvp thrown into it.
Here is a hint of how important pvp is to this game/development:
PVP was introduced on May 4, 2005 in Issue 4
PVP mechanics were changed on December 2, 2008 in Issue 13
Today is April 20, 2012.........we are getting ready to test Issue 23
You do the math....
The financial NEED to revamp pvp to appease SOME of the current pvp crowd is not there. It has been said in numerous threads the past few days -and part of the reason why pvp will not be a focus of the game developers - you have NO community. You have a few people on the forums who get riled up when the acronym pvp is uttered and that's it. There are not enough of "you" to make a distinct difference or persuasive argument to have pvp be a top concern in the future of this game. Paragon is a business; they are here to make money and devoting resources to pvp; especially now since the "community" is such a small fraction of the user base...is an extremely unwise business decision.
It is time to either adapt; after 3.5 years...or to not adapt and continue to watch the days pass by without any significant changes.
*Is the pvp system flawed in this game? Absolutely!
*Has pvp ever been flawless in this game? Absolutely NOT
*Do many pvpers still arena, do tournies, etc etc - I can say on Freedom yes.
*Does EVERY pvper want the changes from Issue 13 reverted back?? No
*Is there a consensus among the pvp community regarding HOW to fix pvp; aside from the "bring back Issue 12 pvp?" No
I am just trying to interject reality into this conversation. I'm not into the whole forum debate and screaming and telling people "strawman this" etc etc. Just stop... take a step back... and TRULY look at this from Paragon's perspective as a business. This is not rocket science, but it is reality.
On a personal note: Do I wish they would devote some time to pvp - I am ambivalent. It wouldn't bother me if they did, but if I was asked to make a list of the top 10 things I would like them to spend time and money on - pvp would not make that list. The main reason I am so turned off by pvp anymore is the behavior of a lot of pvpers in zone pvp. It only takes a few to ruin it for everyone and unfortunately unlike pve - I cannot ignore them. Sure I can ignore someone's WORDS but it is their actions which make the pvp experience for me unbearable anymore. I pvp'd for approximately 3.5 years in CoX. I have played stalkers, doms, defenders, scraps, and trollers in pvp. I pvp'd before and after Issue 13. I used to love to pvp. I even did quite a few base raids back in the day. Issue 13 did not deter me from pvp. I adapted to the mechanics and simply learned a different playstyle. What turned me off was the actions of a lot of the "hardcore" pvpers in the various zones. So while a few years ago I may have been a lil more supportive of the pvp "community" ...now I simply do not care.
Anyways... that is my thoughts on the subject. I am sure someone will come along and argue against every point I made. I am sure someone will try to make themselves look super important and intelligent and refute my personal beliefs. But you know what... you can't deny my beliefs. They are mine...from my experiences.
YMMV
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Actually the main reason something isn't done with bases is because it's a 'legacy system'.|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Frankly the reason nothing is done with pvp; just like bases, is because it is not financially feasible to devote time to something that has a proven record of not being financially profitable.
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There is now nobody at the company that has the foggiest idea how it all fits together and because this was Cryptics first MMO they never bothered documenting things (like most MMO developers do) which means not only is there nobody there who knows how it works there's not even any hope of training someone new on how the thing works.
They would love to make sweeping changes but they have no idea how to do them and what the end result on the game would be.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
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Gotta just say that from listening to friends in the industry, documentation and resource control is a rather broad problem, even today. Back when Cryptic was developing CoV, it was even worse.
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Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
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There is now nobody at the company that has the foggiest idea how it all fits together and because this was Cryptics first MMO they never bothered documenting things (like most MMO developers do) which means not only is there nobody there who knows how it works there's not even any hope of training someone new on how the thing works. .... |
That's an easy question (in the OP, that is)...
I see no purpose in it, don't understand why it is supposed to be fun, and would prefer that it's existence had never even entered the periphery of my awareness.
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Originally Posted by Hell Razer
Many of us have absolute zero desire to engage in pvp. Why not dedicate a pvp only server? Let them rule their own piece of land.
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There are some of us who enjoy PvEing as well, I don't just pvp (well didn't) I enjoyed trying to power game the PvE content as much as possible as well.
There are some PvPers who might actually like your suggestion though, I know its been brought up time and time again that accolades gated behind PvE content is as bad as badges located in PvP zones.
Because the game works so differently in PvP than it does in PvE, and because it will probably always be about builds. Having to make a build with SS and hasten and the like just because that's what wins in PvP is no fun.
I used to think it was also because I had no interest in fighting with other players. I've got my eye on another game's PVP right now though, so I guess that isn't strictly true.
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Which is why a new base system has not been implemented while ALSO keeping the legacy system. The required man power to focus on bases is not there as it will not provide enough revenue...the same with pvp. Both the base building and pvp community are small communities; granted they are both vocal, but unfortunately there just is not enough of either group to make a financial impact to complete the work needed.
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Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
Actually the main reason something isn't done with bases is because it's a 'legacy system'.
There is now nobody at the company that has the foggiest idea how it all fits together and because this was Cryptics first MMO they never bothered documenting things (like most MMO developers do) which means not only is there nobody there who knows how it works there's not even any hope of training someone new on how the thing works. They would love to make sweeping changes but they have no idea how to do them and what the end result on the game would be. |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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I agree with almost everything you have to say, except what Dr Mechanico pointed out.
I wish to add that the vast majority of PvPers are nice, polite, and helpful. Sadly it is the remaining 5% you mention who alienates the many players who might either be ambivalent, or actually join PvP and possibly give it the support it needs.
PvP COMPARED TO BASES
As Dr Mechanico pointed out Bases lack a lot of Dev support because the current Devs have no idea HOW to make changes that would make the Base community happy. PvP remains untouched because the Devs have no idea WHAT changes would make the PvP community happy let alone HOW to make those changes.
If the Devs were to develop a Base System 2.0, without removing the current bases, then they would have an excellent chance that most of the base building community would be overjoyed for months, or years to come. Furthermore most of the non base builders would be happy or at worst ambivalent.
I can't see the same being said for PvP. Even if they rolled back PvP to I-12, a move that would still get flack, I think most PvPers would still be upset over the state of PvP. Based on all the complaints I saw about PvP pre I-13, that means PvP would have gone from UberSuckTastic to just Sucky by reverting to I-12. Worse still further changes to make PvP better then Pre I-13 would likely split the PvP community as well as upset a portion of nonPvPers.
REVENUE vs PAYOFF
As for the revenue not being available to justify Bases 2.0, that was probably true Pre Freedom, but I would not make that claim now. After all Freedom means that Bases 2.0 would open up a market for a nearly infinite number of items for bases, which Paragon could sell and easily pay for themselves.
The requested furnishings and skins alone could well outnumber costume pieces and may well (Standard code rant applies) prove to be simple compared to costumes since movement issues are not involved. Add in access to AE, Wentworths, Hazard Zones, Tailors, NPC (Programable or Not), and many other items and you can quickly see where a Base 2.0 could well pay for itself and keep subscribers paying for years to come.
SOLUTIONS
I'm not sure PvP could add such features since what PvPers tend to want and would pay for will quickly lead to calls of "Pay to Win" but would be curious if there are such items? This might be one angle to try to convince the Devs to invest resources in PvP. Compile a list of items and features, as well as how much you would spend for them.
As an example. Dark Astoria Map for arena 200 pts.
If the Devs can see that the community as a whole would buy stuff and that it would support changes then changes might well be made.
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
I'm pretty sure they understand pvp a lot more than you give them credit for. The changes to CoX pvp happened 3.5 years ago and the development team has seen significant changes since then. Frankly the reason nothing is done with pvp; just like bases, is because it is not financially feasible to devote time to something that has a proven record of not being financially profitable. There were NUMEROUS pvpers who had many issues with pre i13 pvp - so to say that reverting pvp to pre i13 would bring back ANY of those people is fallacious.
Pvp has never been a huge focus of this game and rightfully so as this is a PVE game that had some pvp thrown into it. Here is a hint of how important pvp is to this game/development: PVP was introduced on May 4, 2005 in Issue 4 PVP mechanics were changed on December 2, 2008 in Issue 13 Today is April 20, 2012.........we are getting ready to test Issue 23 You do the math.... The financial NEED to revamp pvp to appease SOME of the current pvp crowd is not there. It has been said in numerous threads the past few days -and part of the reason why pvp will not be a focus of the game developers - you have NO community. You have a few people on the forums who get riled up when the acronym pvp is uttered and that's it. There are not enough of "you" to make a distinct difference or persuasive argument to have pvp be a top concern in the future of this game. Paragon is a business; they are here to make money and devoting resources to pvp; especially now since the "community" is such a small fraction of the user base...is an extremely unwise business decision. It is time to either adapt; after 3.5 years...or to not adapt and continue to watch the days pass by without any significant changes. *Is the pvp system flawed in this game? Absolutely! *Has pvp ever been flawless in this game? Absolutely NOT *Do many pvpers still arena, do tournies, etc etc - I can say on Freedom yes. *Does EVERY pvper want the changes from Issue 13 reverted back?? No *Is there a consensus among the pvp community regarding HOW to fix pvp; aside from the "bring back Issue 12 pvp?" No I am just trying to interject reality into this conversation. I'm not into the whole forum debate and screaming and telling people "strawman this" etc etc. Just stop... take a step back... and TRULY look at this from Paragon's perspective as a business. This is not rocket science, but it is reality. On a personal note: Do I wish they would devote some time to pvp - I am ambivalent. It wouldn't bother me if they did, but if I was asked to make a list of the top 10 things I would like them to spend time and money on - pvp would not make that list. The main reason I am so turned off by pvp anymore is the behavior of a lot of pvpers in zone pvp. It only takes a few to ruin it for everyone and unfortunately unlike pve - I cannot ignore them. Sure I can ignore someone's WORDS but it is their actions which make the pvp experience for me unbearable anymore. I pvp'd for approximately 3.5 years in CoX. I have played stalkers, doms, defenders, scraps, and trollers in pvp. I pvp'd before and after Issue 13. I used to love to pvp. I even did quite a few base raids back in the day. Issue 13 did not deter me from pvp. I adapted to the mechanics and simply learned a different playstyle. What turned me off was the actions of a lot of the "hardcore" pvpers in the various zones. So while a few years ago I may have been a lil more supportive of the pvp "community" ...now I simply do not care. Anyways... that is my thoughts on the subject. I am sure someone will come along and argue against every point I made. I am sure someone will try to make themselves look super important and intelligent and refute my personal beliefs. But you know what... you can't deny my beliefs. They are mine...from my experiences. YMMV |
Mayhaps for some, that is enough for them to turn around and exit the zone feeling as though there is absolutely no loss to them whatsoever. I don't think they are that interested in pvp, and whatever smidgen of interest they may have had was smothered instantly. They don't care. And a few of the ones that should care, the ones that may be interested in actually growing the community are calling these people idiots. Hollow indeed.
The problem with the toxicity (which was largely less about broadcast chat and tells and more about the CONDUCT that accompanied it) was enough to turn us off. You can't ignore a griefer in zone PvP and still have fun, and you don't feed a griefer. If you go back to fight him again to 'drive him off" and you're just giving him more enjoyment, not less. You're rewarding him- encouraging his behavior.
So... many of us stopped going... which just left the proportion of toxic players higher in those zones, making the issue worse when you did decide to try it, until it just doesn't seem worth trying.
Now, that's not a condemnation against the whole PvP community (and some creative banter IS part of the fun.) The organized PvP events like tournaments seem perfectly geared for great PvP experiences and the encounters that can build lasting friendships even among opponents. They have real potential and I wish more people would give them a chance.
I haven't... most of my play time is rather spontaneous lately, so I can't commit to making a scheduled event, but I often DO encourage others to try them.