So... why aren't YOU pvp-ing?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-04-16 22:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Not so easy to ignore their actions. Sure the words can fall on deaf ears, but the actual pvp griefing isn't easy to ignore. You would think that since rewards are on a 5 minute timer once a person respawns/hosps and ventures out...the same people would leave them alone for oh..say..maybe 5 minutes? But no.. they like to team gank you and then "scream" obscenities. I gave up on pvp about a year or so ago when it became apparent the civility and maturity was never going to rebound to a decent level. So while many pvpers love to blame Castle/Issue 13 for the decline of pvp...they may also want to look at their "community" for being as pleasant as a venereal disease. Just saying....
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You are not entitled to anything.
Cant multiquote since im on my not so smart phone.
I go into PvP zones to quickly run the patrol mission for the badge & temp powers. I avoid PvPers if there are any there, and if I can't outrun them I'll hit Self Destruction rather than fight them.Some reasons I don't like PvP:
- The heavy handed attempts to push non-PvPers into PvPing by the devs have irritated me. Putting badges in PvP zones, sending every single character of mine multiple zones across the city to talk to the stupid PvP contacts, etc.
- PvPers seem to largely be a collection of semi-illiterate trash talkers, both unpleasant and incoherent.
- There appears to be a huge overlap between PvPers and griefers & jerks. For example, there were some PvPers who managed to get Op privileges on a channel I'm on and tried to destroy it with randoms kickings & promotions, then boasted about it. Another example is the PvPer who rocked his heal aura in Wentworth's just to annoy people while berating them for not being PvPers. And there's all the PvPers who sneer with contempt at non-PvPers at every opportunity. In general, when someone acts like a malignant jerk, they tend to turn out to be a PvPer more often than not; outside of spammers, almost everyone on my /ignore list claimed to be a PvPer. PvPers do not come across as the sort of people I wish to associate with.
- PvP is responsible for a number of irritating nerfs in this game, and that adds another layer of bad associations to it for me. I think the game would be better if PvP had never been added.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
The only PvP i ever enjoyed was the RvR system of Dark Age of Camelot.
I can't find myself to be happy with any other type of PvP in older and more recent games.
I would PVP but spinning my camera 360 degrees while Full Auto running is too much fun for one evening.
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See, this is something I said as early as Issue 6 - trying to get players into PvP who don't want to PvP, but are there for PvE rewards is a mistake. All this does is get players who want to AVOID PvP and will get angry if they're killed while making PvP players come off as villains for killing them. That practice of getting people into PvP zones who don't want to fight other players, thus forcing them to do something they don't want, is responsible for a LOT of the bad blood around here.
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
I go into PvP zones to quickly run the patrol mission for the badge & temp powers. I avoid PvPers if there are any there, and if I can't outrun them I'll hit Self Destruction rather than fight them.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This post states in a self-aware manner a number of the sociological reasons I don't like the PvP "community." It accurately describes the sort of behavior I have seen on many forays into PvP. And the conclusion is an excellent rebuttal to the rage-eyed PvP advocates in this and other threads who essentially say over and over "Get a thick skin. The trash talk is PART of PvP! IT'S FUN! Or ignore it and still PvP!"|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
What also likely plays a part is back then I was in my late teens and didn't have much going on in my life, and games were a good outlet to relieve that need for aggressivity, competition and validation, and MMORPGs a good choice for the sore loser I've always been as grinding and game knowledge is worth more than pure ability in these settings. Nowadays, I get all the challenge I could ever need from real life responsibilities, I don't get that urge to fight with people anymore and when I do I find it more therapeutic to yell on random strangers or go on crazy rants on internet boards, and I just simply can't care enough to do my best even the few times I do play. It's funny; ten years ago I was that guy who yelled at the fools who didn't give their all, now I'm the guy who leaves a team game ten minutes in because I suddenly feel like eating a yogurt or watching TV documentaries.
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But at the end of the day, the trash talk along with the utter lack of sportsmanship (meaning sore losers who quit upon death or switch sides to further imbalance a zone or only team with vets on vent even in pickup scenarios or gang up on newbies or badgers, etc.; people who repeatedly target players new to PvP over and over and over; gloat after beating someone, experienced or otherwise; demand that everybody get as serious as they are and spend billions on their builds; lol<powername_here> at people who have different priorities and are only PvP curious; and ultimately insist that because there isn't a game mechanic denying access to any of these and other behaviors that "PvP is an anything goes environment so everyone must suck it up and come feel my wrath! GRRRRR!")--all this adds up for most people to an entirely unpleasant experience. Personally, I don't think either yoghurt or (decent) documentaries are that bad. For me, PvP in CoH, between these social aspects and the mechanical problems, is usually on par with preparing my taxes.
[edit to be clear: So it's not necessarily a bunch of "care bares" running home crying to mommy. In mine, and it sounds like others' cases, it's about a bunch of adults with rather full and robust lives who simply have better things to do with their limited time than put up with a room full of adolescent acting people on the internet. For many of us, our hormones have settled down, we've been there, done that, and it's simply neither fun nor pleasurable.]
In the past few years, only at "party events" (like frostyfrozen's last days of Galaxy celebration) when a player I know and trust from a global channel is fostering an inclusive atmosphere have I found myself enjoying any CoH PvP. The mechanics still feel broken as hell. The "PvP drops that never drop" still feel like an obnoxious developer taunt. But I have been able to have fun. Simply because the atmosphere is inclusive and underscores that at the end of the day, win or lose, die or defeat, the whole venture is about everyone having a good time together. Trash talk was at a minimum. And more specifically the gloating and temper tantrums were not at all present. And veteran PvPers on the server made a point of evening out the teams in terms of skill and experience level. And in the free-for-all rounds, those same vets focused on each other, letting others have a fighting chance to stay alive and figure out what was going on.
For those of you who are coming down hard on those of us who say sportsmanship really does matter in getting people to PvP, let me ask you this: How's that "anything goes, no rulez" mentality working out for you? Finding a lot of people to play with?
Proof is in the pudding kiddos.
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Never said I was entitled to anything. The OP asked why I don't pvp - I answered. You can't join a conversation that is asking for people's personal opinions and reasons for doing/not doing something and just randomly say "you aren't entitled to anything" **which I took as you saying I was not entitled to an opinion**.|
Originally Posted by TRTerror
You are not entitled to anything.
Cant multiquote since im on my not so smart phone. |
I pvped from Issue 7-10 regularly then took a break from it until about issue 12. Then from 12-19 pvped on a semi regular basis. I much prefer arena over zone pvp where you can choose your opponents and not have to deal with the peanut gallery of bigoted testosterone laden juveniles whose sole purpose is griefing others in actions and words.
I still occasionally arena friends/people I know, but we do it on our pve toons more for fun and laughs than anything.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Sure, but an important question is whether that is what PvP should be in a superhero game. IMO, the inherent character of the genre has been subverted, discarded, and disavowed by PvPers in exchange for a very non-superhero-ish "anything goes" gladatorial bloodsport experience. That may feel appropriate for some dark fantasy setting, but IMO it is entirely out of context for supers. Even the villains in 99% of comics don't behave with the childish mentality displayed by PvPers, so you can't take refuge in the b.s. rationalization of, "Well, I'm a villain, what kind of behavior do you expect?" Moreover, hero players are responding in kind, further twisting the atmosphere away from anything resembling superhero sensibilities.|
Originally Posted by macskull
I realize this doesn't make sense to some people, but it's been said before that PvP zones are more or less "anything goes" so long as players aren't abusing glitches or exploits.
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It is one thing to say this is what PvP has evolved into and you can either take it or leave it. It is another thing to defend it as befitting the genre and overall character of the CoX player community in general. If this is what PvP means to people, then I'd rather it be removed from the game and let that "anything goes" mentality go with it. Because even as segregated as it is, it still allows an ugly mentality to infect the game; after all, there is nothing preventing such repugnant attitudes from bleeding over into the PvE game as those players take time off from being colossal a**hats in RV and bring their special brand of "competitiveness" along with them.
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I'm not even sure how this is directed at me. Are you sure you have the right person. Keep in mind, I started Tempty over Fates in a league finals because she had shown up the entire season before that and I thought because of that she deserved a spot in the final matches even though she wasn't our strongest emp. P.S. We lost. |
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Right, and how many professional player teams show up in T-Ball diamonds and not just beat the kids horribly, but at the same time, have a few of the pro players berate and belittle them with insults. Very sporting. Way to foster future ball players.
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As to everyone else with an opinion (since its so easy to lump people together, i.e. pvp community are caustic meanies) Look at it from my side of things. I've taken time to explains the ins and outs to anyone who has a PvP related questions. I regularly help with builds on the PvP forums, I've sat down with people and teams, trying to help newer players get into PvP. (Hell in our last test league, which failed, but still, one of our Emp's had never 8 v 8'ed or PvP'ed on any serious level, but we gave them a shot anyway and tried to work with them to make them a stronger player). I'm not a saint, I don't pretend to be. But I come into a thread asking "Why you don't PvP" and see a good many posts saying "I don't because of the community, I don't because competitve people are jerks, I don't because all PvP'ers are assh0les" guess what? You're trash talking the community. The very thing that is keeping you out of PvP. *That* is why I think posters who stated that are idots.
Addendum: I logged on to a character in RV to register the new loyalty program badge, and was immediately greeted with this brilliant comment from one of the illustrious members of the new Algonquin Round Table, which I reproduce here verbatim:
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Yeah, I can't figure out why nobody wants to hang out with the PVP Community "eithger".
| Excrement just going to sit in base..pfft..sh;it or get off the pot fool...Your fear has none eithger it seems...Excrement...When your momma p.ooped you out..did she flush??? |
Speaking as someone who tried a pure PvP game, Lineage 2, I will make my statement pure and simple.
1) I don't PvP because of griefers. The PvP crowd will stand up and say they disapprove of players like this, but that doesn't change the fact they these players exist. I want no part of it and joined CoH for PvE content.
2) PvP servers are great for people who want a little more lively competition, but outside of WoW PvP servers have very low server populations.
3) Forcing people, throughout an entire game that is currently based on PvE, to do world PvP should never happen. You will lose players rather than gain. PvP zones, yes. Forced world PvP, no.
4) I will not PvP because someone, a real person, has to lose and the guilt/frustration will be there. I do not play CoH for Stress, I play it for fun.
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That is precisely what I meant! Thanks for rephrasing it so well for me. Somehow, he completely missed the point.
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Originally Posted by Ad Astra
MisterD - I think you may have misinterpreted ThirtySeven's post about powerlevelling. What I read in there about powerlevelling is that the process of engaging in powerlevelling and min/maxxing isn't something thast ThirtySeven enjoys. AND that if you want to "succeed" at PvP, you have to engage in powerlevelling and min/maxxing. Ergo, the steps to get to PvP at least somewhat prevent PvP from being an activity that ThirtySeven wants to do.
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If you dev's really want to know about pvp experiences, you can just skip through us and ask Positron, that's right, Mr. Matt Miller, about his experiences with a certain pvp crew on the cusp of i13.
Be sure to ask him how he reliably got his main handed to him and then berated for "sucking at his own game"
I'd say ask Back Alley Brawler the same, since what I saw when I logged in, was "...and THIS is why we are making the changes to pvp" ...but he isn't with PS anymore.
I'm pretty sure that Matt's personal experiences with pvp in this game can pretty much cover everything said about the pvp attitude and why most people avoid pvp.
Edit: as for me? I was in that pvp league at the time this was going on, I was new to pvp. I wanted to learn and become good, no, GREAT at it. when I saw what my crew was doing to the lead devs, and the response and changes delivered, I decided I wanted NOTHING to do with pvp, the attitude, or the people that celebrated the fact that they delighted in causing others grief.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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That's ridiculous. So now we're not only supposed to take the abuse, we're supposed to pretend it isn't happening? Pointing out bad behavior isn't the same as committing the bad behavior in the first place. It's not "trash talking" to complain about trash talking, or about other actual bad attitudes and behaviors. Especially not in a thread that asks for that kind of information; should we have just all responded to the OP with "sorry, we can't answer that question"?
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Originally Posted by MrLiberty
But I come into a thread asking "Why you don't PvP" and see a good many posts saying "I don't because of the community, I don't because competitve people are jerks, I don't because all PvP'ers are assh0les" guess what? You're trash talking the community. The very thing that is keeping you out of PvP. *That* is why I think posters who stated that are idots.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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Because certain members of the pvp community want the answer to be Issue 13 is why people don't pvp.... not... the community..the rewards. Issue 13 changes are the last reason I would personally say is why I no longer pvp. I adapted to the i13 changes - some people STILL after 3.5 years haven't. It's a lot easier to blame the game instead of the gamers.|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
That's ridiculous. So now we're not only supposed to take the abuse, we're supposed to pretend it isn't happening? Pointing out bad behavior isn't the same as committing the bad behavior in the first place. It's not "trash talking" to complain about trash talking, or about other actual bad attitudes and behaviors. Especially not in a thread that asks for that kind of information; should we have just all responded to the OP with "sorry, we can't answer that question"?
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"See this is why we got no peeps pvpin - you fu**ed it up!!!! Nub!" /e teabag
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Just using your analogy, not accusing you of anything. Am arguing against the mindset of "ignore it" it shouldn't need to be ignored, it shouldn't be tolerated.|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
I'm not even sure how this is directed at me. Are you sure you have the right person. Keep in mind, I started Tempty over Fates in a league finals because she had shown up the entire season before that and I thought because of that she deserved a spot in the final matches even though she wasn't our strongest emp. P.S. We lost.
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As to the rest of your post, I haven't seen anyone say ALL pvpers XXXXX And the one time it came close, they were moderated/corrected by their peers pretty quickly.
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If anything, I think we've been stressing that it isn't all PvP'ers. In fact, I'd argue that there are just as many ******* in other parts of the game. I've encountered my share of roleplayers that give roleplaying such a bad reputation and I've teamed with raiders that I'd love to throw out airlocks. (moon zone, pls).|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Just using your analogy, not accusing you of anything. Am arguing against the mindset of "ignore it" it shouldn't need to be ignored, it shouldn't be tolerated.
As to the rest of your post, I haven't seen anyone say ALL pvpers XXXXX And the one time it came close, they were moderated/corrected by their peers pretty quickly. |
The problem is that PvP is the one place where ignoring doesn't work. We aren't just talking about text in a chat window-- we're talking about how they conduct themselves in-game and how that conduct can impact us. Even on ignore, a single jerk in a zone can make the experience unpleasant for a great many others.
In other parts of the game, I can go do an instanced mission, boot someone from a team, or roleplay somewhere else with someone else. I can mitigate the impact of the jerks I encounter.
I can't in (zone) PvP... except by not PvP'ing.
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And trash-talking people back is the solution? All you're doing is reaffirming preconceptions by calling people idiots. You're giving more people more reason to not PvP. And if your argument is that you don't need people like that - and I'm not saying it is, but IF it is - then there's your answer. Obviously, you can't be welcoming to everyone, and there are jerks on all sides of the fence. That said, you CANNOT discount people's experiences and you cannot dismiss their opinion. Heckling people for having that opinion helps no-one, you least of all.
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Originally Posted by MrLiberty
But I come into a thread asking "Why you don't PvP" and see a good many posts saying "I don't because of the community, I don't because competitve people are jerks, I don't because all PvP'ers are assh0les" guess what? You're trash talking the community. The very thing that is keeping you out of PvP. *That* is why I think posters who stated that are idots.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Err... heroes fighting villains is the entire point of the superhero/supervillain genre. Whether the player at the keyboard reflects your mentality of what a "superhero" or "supervillain" should be is completely irrelevant. When I'm at my computer PvPing, I'm not some poor kid who watched his kids get shot and now uses his technological gadgets to fight evil, I'm someone controlling pixels on a screen trying to defeat other pixels on a screen. In short, I don't care about whether it "fits" the concept of the game, only that the mechanics are good enough to make the experience enjoyable (and more often than not lately they aren't). At its core, PvP is simply heroes fighting against villains (or variations thereof, but that's not the point). If I want backstory, concept, or anything of that sort I'll go RP on Virtue or PvE. I PvP because it's more challenging than "run into mob -> fire off AoEs -> run to next mob -> fire off AoEs -> repeat."|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Sure, but an important question is whether that is what PvP should be in a superhero game. IMO, the inherent character of the genre has been subverted, discarded, and disavowed by PvPers in exchange for a very non-superhero-ish "anything goes" gladatorial bloodsport experience. That may feel appropriate for some dark fantasy setting, but IMO it is entirely out of context for supers. Even the villains in 99% of comics don't behave with the childish mentality displayed by PvPers, so you can't take refuge in the b.s. rationalization of, "Well, I'm a villain, what kind of behavior do you expect?" Moreover, hero players are responding in kind, further twisting the atmosphere away from anything resembling superhero sensibilities.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
It is one thing to say this is what PvP has evolved into and you can either take it or leave it. It is another thing to defend it as befitting the genre and overall character of the CoX player community in general. If this is what PvP means to people, then I'd rather it be removed from the game and let that "anything goes" mentality go with it. Because even as segregated as it is, it still allows an ugly mentality to infect the game; after all, there is nothing preventing such repugnant attitudes from bleeding over into the PvE game as those players take time off from being colossal a**hats in RV and bring their special brand of "competitiveness" along with them.
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Originally Posted by Chyron HR
Yeah, I can't figure out why nobody wants to hang out with the PVP Community "eithger".
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Walk like a duck, quack like a duck. Call it a duck. Next time I'll try to sugar coat it more. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And trash-talking people back is the solution? All you're doing is reaffirming preconceptions by calling people idiots. You're giving more people more reason to not PvP. And if your argument is that you don't need people like that - and I'm not saying it is, but IF it is - then there's your answer. Obviously, you can't be welcoming to everyone, and there are jerks on all sides of the fence. That said, you CANNOT discount people's experiences and you cannot dismiss their opinion. Heckling people for having that opinion helps no-one, you least of all.
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Again, like I said. I'm not dicounting peoples experiences. I know all too well the toxic nature of broadcast PvP. However, citing it as a significant reason to avoid PvP when it is arguably the one thing we the players have direct control over (unlike say the way powers work, AT's functions, IO's influence builds, etc) and then refusing to ignore the control we are given via /gignore is just silly (which sounds nicer than idiotic I suppose).
It'd be like some one prank calling you, and you *still* sitting on the phone listening to it saying "Awww shucks, this fella is really mean and won't let me alone." Unlike a prank call? When you /gignore, the person can't call you back.
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It seems like you are arguing against what you are recommending. People here are absolutely taking direct control over the situation by removing themselves from the situation entirely. They aren't complaining about removing themselves as I don't hear people lamenting that they would Pvp otherwise, they are just giving a reason why they don't.|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
Walk like a duck, quack like a duck. Call it a duck. Next time I'll try to sugar coat it more.
Again, like I said. I'm not dicounting peoples experiences. I know all too well the toxic nature of broadcast PvP. However, citing it as a significant reason to avoid PvP when it is arguably the one thing we the players have direct control over (unlike say the way powers work, AT's functions, IO's influence builds, etc) and then refusing to ignore the control we are given via /gignore is just silly (which sounds nicer than idiotic I suppose). It'd be like some one prank calling you, and you *still* sitting on the phone listening to it saying "Awww shucks, this fella is really mean and won't let me alone." Unlike a prank call? When you /gignore, the person can't call you back. |
I can understand the phone metaphor if you are saying that once they hang up, they refuse to use the phone again, but then again I wonder how many people screen their calls.
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Originally Posted by MrLiberty
Walk like a duck, quack like a duck. Call it a duck. Next time I'll try to sugar coat it more.
Again, like I said. I'm not dicounting peoples experiences. I know all too well the toxic nature of broadcast PvP. However, citing it as a significant reason to avoid PvP when it is arguably the one thing we the players have direct control over (unlike say the way powers work, AT's functions, IO's influence builds, etc) and then refusing to ignore the control we are given via /gignore is just silly (which sounds nicer than idiotic I suppose). It'd be like some one prank calling you, and you *still* sitting on the phone listening to it saying "Awww shucks, this fella is really mean and won't let me alone." Unlike a prank call? When you /gignore, the person can't call you back. |
Doing something like turning off broadcast has negative effects for anyone in zone, since it filters out everything else going on, too. The issue with ignoring the players individually is that you can only accomplish this after you have been harassed by every single player who will harass you, and through every means in which they will harass you. In practice the number of these players are seemingly endless, so you wind up on the receiving end of angst no matter how many global ignores you use. Of course, this also isn't stopping everyone else from hearing a players insults aimed toward you, and this creates a one-sided argument where you can't defend yourself. The public reacts to these one-sided arguments, and the next thing you know everyone is trying to kill you and you alone because of something that someone you ignored said, and then you can't join a TF because the player forming it has you on ignore due to something someone else said about you in a PVP zone... generally just ignoring everyone doesn't do a thing to solve the problem with the community.
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Sure, you can make their venom invisible to you... but it does nothing to change the attitudes of the folks you are playing with. It's the people who are willing to talk like that that I don't want to team with. I don't really care if I can see it or not.|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
Again, like I said. I'm not dicounting peoples experiences. I know all too well the toxic nature of broadcast PvP. However, citing it as a significant reason to avoid PvP when it is arguably the one thing we the players have direct control over and then refusing to ignore the control we are given via /gignore is just silly.
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Are you suggesting that the people suddenly aren't bigoted, or homophobic, or imbecilic just because I can't see the chat anymore?
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The disjoint here is that you feel I'm calling for perfect behavior when I feel I'm merely calling for good behavior. Or even just a lack of bad behavior. Ideally, people would offer up "nice kill" or "gg", something positive, after they've gone a round or two but I'm not even suggesting that. I expect a basic amount of civility that requires one to pause for a moment and decide not to type out "lol, u suk" or "****ing ganker".|
Originally Posted by macskull
I don't think it's a reasonable expectation that everyone's going to have perfect behavior all the time. There's always going to be a few people that are heckling or what have you - there's friendly banter, then there's trash talk, and then you just *shrug* and move on. I don't take issue with trash talking because I don't need to. I just beat 'em in game, problem solved. You can't compare online competition to offline competition like that, since people aren't anonymous offline. I'm not saying anonymity makes it right, just that it makes it more likely to occur. I simply ignore it (and I'll admit it's even amusing sometimes), though I realize not everyone has the ability to do that. What everyone seems to forget, though, is that it's usually a very small minority of people who are actually engaging in said trash-talking and it's very easy to forget about a small minority.
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Unfortunately, while the bad behavior may come from a small minority its human nature to remember bad experiences longer than the good. A single bad experience with a restaurant, for example, can sour a person from ever going there again. That nature makes it all the more important for the community to embrace a basic standard that minimizes those bad impressions. Telling outsiders to ignore or endure it won't improve the situation. The change needs to come from within the community by stating that they will not tolerate it.
-Why- would I want to PvP in city of heroes?