So... why aren't YOU pvp-ing?

"human vs. human killing"

interesting choice of words...

I've been wandering into PVP zones as of late to see how things go. My experience so far: Empty. Got myself a Warburg nuke on a toon that should be nearly defenseless in the area, but didn't get ganked once. Didn't see anyone else. Didn't hear any chatter, either. Didn't find anyone on search.

Though when the devs showed up in the zone as giant snowmen I partook of the event to fight them off. It was quite fun, and on occasion the team I was on would have to fend of griefers. Strength in numbers!

I would argue that /ignore does not really do anything to solve the problem of trash-talkers, which is that by the time you ignore them you are already having unfun.

I think of PvP as something to go do with a perfected character. Something I really like, consider to be at full strength, with which know what I want to do in PvP, and it is ready to go do that (has the rest of it's intended team). I have no such character at this time, and when I start new characters it's for fun and thematic reasons so they don't fit with what I'd want to PvP on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion Actual MMOs that were designed from the ground up to be a "pvp/free-for-all" type of MMO never last long... So no real point to having a "pvp only" server for CoH. Just saying

Nonsense. EVE and DAoC are some of the longest running out there. EVE is doing fantastic, and DAoC is an even better example because it did HORRIBLE. I played DAoC from very early on and have gone back to it several times. They have always had cheating problems, balance issues, every expansion made the game WORSE, and it was still popular and active in PvP zones past eight years, with players begging for more PvP.

An MMORPG is an RPG game, played with others. Most RPG games don't have an 'end game', they just show you 'GAME OVER' and that's it. You're done. Obviously players aren't happy with that and they want an 'end game', but that doesn't work for a classic MMORPG because classic MMORPGS don't have true game play to begin with. They are enjoyable because you're playing a role in a team, building a character, and/or going through a story which is all just pushing through content, and you can't make content faster than players play it (See Architect Entertainment... the dev's know what I'm talking about and they have a good bid to get around it with AE...).

To satisfy players we have learned over time that a next gen MMORPG game must be one of two things to not flop:

1) Engaging to play. Some degree of active blocking, strategizing, aiming, etc. You also have other genres that can lean in like Planetside 2 (MMOFPS) to get both engaging gameplay and MMO building/progressing by adding gameplay from the other genre already proven as engaging... a PvP shooter format...

2) PvP. As demonstrated by EVE and DAoC, if your RPG end game is PvP you don't need to generate as much content. Players will clash over and over again in PvP, and it's only a matter of balance. Individual (1v1) balance is usually the focus of players but from a development standpoint it is much better and much easier to balance from a team perspective (which EvE and DAoC both do.). This lets you have a definable 'GAME OVER' just like a regular RPG, and still have something to go do with your completed character to show it off, compare it with others, or just keep your story going. The Secret World looks to be going this way.

The holy grail would have both (Guildwars 2 is the only example I know of)

I used to do some casual arena PvP. The Virtue server used to have their "Fight Night at the Golden Giza", which I was a regular at. I didn't really like zone PvP, though. A competitive but unstructured environment like that tends to bring out the worst in people. At least in the arena you don't have to worry about getting ganged up on.

But these days I rarely PvP anymore, and the I13 changes had a lot to do with that. What they were trying to accomplish with the changes they made was to make it so that any powerset could have a fair chance at winning a fight, and that there would be no such thing as a "lol-build", as they put it. But their method of doing that was to make all AT's and powersets the same, things like giving Psionic resistance to sets that lacked it in PvE, which took away Psionic's main selling point as a damage type, and basically defeating the purpose of having different powersets to choose from.

That change drove a lot of would-be opponents away, and those that remain are the type that care more about trash-talking and ganking people than fighting them.

But that said, I'm still in the camp that supports fixing PvP. I have quite a few ideas on how I would improve it if it were up to me, but at the very least, having a "classic mode" as an option for arena matches would be a good start.

I don't pvp because things are not equal.

The game requires way too much involvement in figuring out how to max your character for pvp effectiveness. Even if you do max your character you are not guaranteed to be any good, because of your powerset combinations.

Just like any competitive game out there, there is a "best character." Unfortunately, unless I just happened to pick that particular AT and that powerset combination my character will be worthless. Unless, of course, I decide to reroll something that is effective, but that eliminates me playing my favorite character.

In PvE, every combination can complete a mission. Not every AT/powerset combination is guaranteed to be able to win a pvp fight.

Now, personally, I am a huge fighting game fan. I play as many of them as I can get my mitts on (SSF2T:HD, SF3:OE, SSF4:AE, SFxT, UMvC3, BB:CSE), and I play them online against people. I love competition and the rush you get when you beat a real live opponent. In a fighting game you pick a character and you learn that character. Everything you need to win is built into the characters and you just need to figure out how to use their tools to succeed. That is absolution NOT how City of Heroes pvp is built.

The best PvP I have ever played in an MMO came from Champions Online and DC Universe. In CO they have their halloween event where you can turn into either a werewolf or a hunter and you fight it out in the various zones. You do not use any of your character's build and the game is completely balanced for wolf v hunter action. Its fast, its intense, its easy to pick up, its amazing.

DCU took it a step further and made legends pvp where you pick a DC hero or villain and you slug it out. Once again each character is balanced and it is up to you to use your tools to figure out how to win.

Problem with those systems is that you are not pvping with *your* character, so I can see why it would not appeal to a certain demographic of players. Unfortunately pvping with a player created character based on infinite possibilities means the game can not be balanced and we circle back to the whole reason I don't pvp in the first place.

Also, for the pre i13 v post i13 pvp argument. PvP before i13 was awful. It was so incredibly easy to make a character obtain godhood and become unkillable that there wasn't a point to even play unless you had a pocket emp and elude. It didn't allow more builds, it just allowed a few different builds to be top tier.

Post i13 pvp is also awful, but in different ways. Powers work differently, support isn't as effective thus cutting out a couple of ATs from playing, and other things. Personally I like the travel power suppression and the diminutive returns nonsense, makings obtaining godhood harder and things are slightly more balanced.

Though in hind sight they should have just left pvp alone because obviously the few people who played it pre i13 preferred it that way and they all left once it changed, so now there is no one to play the pvp game post i13.

In Castle's defense, because he is an amazing person and gave us so much good stuff in this game that people forget how much we have to thank him over, what happened in i13 was only a first step in his pvp plan. He had so much more he wanted to do, but couldn't get the approval to do it, and now he isn't here, so we will never see the full scope of what his vision for pvp what supposed to be.