And this is why City of Heroes will always be unique

I would argue that "I believe the game will quickly run out of steam" is not an objective prediction, and is subjective interpretation of possible outcomes.

I play over in That Game with the Laser Swords, as well as That Game with the Extremely Dangerous Jewelry. CoH was my first MMO, and I am spoiled in many ways. I'm generally a solo/duo/small team type player, so the whole 'forced teaming' thing would make me avoid an MMO altogether.

CoH is so beautifully flexible--I believe that's this game's great strength. I can jump in-game alone and run a mission or two, knowing I made progress and had a good time. I can log on with a level 50 tank, team up with my husband's brand new level 5 scrapper, then hook up with a friend's level 38 controller, and just run missions; all three of us make progress, get rewards, and have fun. I wish more MMOs had Sidekicking, Mission Scaling and Global Friends lists. And I haven't even mentioned the level of customization! I really am spoiled.

I wholeheartedly agree that the designers of That Game with the Laser Swords made a lot of decisions that leave me confused and annoyed. Just adding a person to my Friends list is an exercise in frustration. I can't add someone unless they happen to be online at that exact moment, which defeats the purpose of the darn list to begin with.

Arcanaville, you are spot on about the difficulties of teaming over there. Yes, the travel alone is a headache. I came to CoH when it was two years old, so a lot of issues had already been smoothed out. I did start over in Jewelry is Hazardous Game in open beta, and boy do I remember how long it took to get from A to B. A few years later, and you can pretty easily hop, skip, jump or ride across Midgard in a flash. I can only hope things change in A Galaxy Far Far Away, but with all the loading screens and airlocks and shuttles and orbital stations, just getting on my dang ship is a hassle, much less trekking from the back end of Hoth to meet up with buddies on Coruscant.

Oddly, I find that I team more in That Laser Sword Game than in either of my other two MMOs. I think it's because a full team involves just three other people. That keeps things small and relatively simple. Large team activities stress me out. I become easily flustered and confused by all the antics and complicated mechanics and flashy power effects and people running around. I can keep up with two or three other people all right. I can enjoy a Flashpoint run or a stab at a Heroic, whereas a Task Force or an Incarnate Trial leaves me running for the hills.

Weirdly, I find that the Social Point system doesn't really reward people for doing things on a team. You don't get points for actually teaming. I've spent hours on a team, and come away with no Social Points at all. If you don't happen to get an NPC to have a conversation with your group and invite responses, no points for you. Most missions don't involve those types of chats, sadly. It was a good idea, but I believe the implementation falls short. For me, at least, it's not a great incentive to team.

I may be naive, but I think that the Laser Sword folks will add features and streamline others. I don't think they fully grasp what the various types of MMO players want. Hopefully, this will change. I think the folks over there could learn a lot from CoH. I truly wish they could see how players here are so invested in their characters because they are so customizable and so personal.

One of the many icebergs that the TORtanic has crashed into is the fact that the modern MMO market is way more competitive, than before and the players are way less patient or forgiving of bugs and bad design choices - a lot of players expect a new MMO to have the standard features of an MMO that's had several years of updates and refinements, which makes the job of trying to tempt players of other MMOs who have invested a lot of time in their avatars and social groups even harder by having to tempt them to switch their sub to a less polished game with fewer features.
EA's triumphant follow-up to the Sims and Warhammer Online has also had the problem of launching into a market that's had a radical shift to hybrid payment models in the last year or so, leaving it's older sub-only model looking kinda limited.
As the servers empty, they're faced with a similar problem to the one SOE had with DCUO - an expensive high profile IP title that was forced to merge servers and add a free-to-play option less than a year after it launched.

I have played many, many, many MMOs, and I always come back to this one.

I can get from zone to zone in minutes (if not seconds), I can look exactly how I want to look, and I can join my friends regardless of level to help them out.

...Admittedly, sometimes running older content (particularly while leveled down) is painful. If only because I don't have all my powers. Running a Synapse without Energy Absorption on my Stalker was unpleasant.

But the stuff that has years of polish? Awesome.

Hrm, I get the feeling that this thread may not exist when I check back, but...
Side-stepping specific games (I've not even tried the one mentioned in the OP), this concept of requiring teams is absolutely the product of over-thinking (into the unthinking territory) and an example of people often don't know what they are talking about, even in fields that they enjoy (and, yes, even writers within such fields).
It's a crazy thing when you see fans/customers asking for things that they don't realize are not what they want. Just because you like music doesn't mean that you can correct Paul McCartney's idea for the bass line of a particular song.

And I think one of the best bits of truth in here is Arcanaville mentioning that we're not all going to agree on what makes a good MMORPG.

For me... While I agree that CoH is the best out there right now, I do miss some elements that were pointed out as failures in other games.
Namely, the original laser-sword mmorpg and its vast exploration, in-depth non-combat pursuits and activities and just overall extreme (insane) level of depths, layers and more depth that has been dubbed too much for 'what these games are supposed to be about'.
I liked it better when these games weren't mega-blockbuster, hit-it-big or panic, keep-it-simple, standardized, theme-parked, static adventures of what you're supposed to do... as opposed to, 'This is the world, son... it's big... it's vast... it's dangerous... it's tough... it's complicated... take your time... enjoy the world... there's more and more for you to learn... over time'.
Or, simply put... the difference between a game and a virtual world.

CoH has a nice amount of both. And I like that fine. I'm very happy it has the right elements, for me, to make it feel like a bit of a world with a really fun game.
I do miss my big damn virtual world that also had several in-depth games within it... although, I should visit the emu...

Hehe, anyway...
I may have failed to side-step specifics...
Hopefully that all made some bit of sense... it's been a long day!

As a mostly solo and very small team oriented player, I encounter situations in CoH more often than I'd like to to where I end up bemoaning the fact that a pure solo path isn't viable.

The most recent example of this is with the Drowning In Blood trial. I haven't done it, and my 2 SG-mates weren't ingame, so i joined the LFG just to see how long it would take. About 10 mins later I got the callup, accepted, and found myself in a team of 4 strangers. I wasn't the leader. I said in chat that I hadn't done it before, and the other non-leader members said that it was their first time too. I asked if we could do it slowly-ish so that I could read the blurb etc, and the leader apparently agreed. The team leader had done it before. The first instruction i saw was 'Speak to the commander for instructions', so i followed the team over to him and clicked him. The only option i got was 'never mind'. The instructions had changed to defeat something or other. I commented on how I was a tad disappointed with not being able to read the blurb as I wasn't the leqader, adn the leader replied 'cool story bro'.

I quit.

I have 2 SG-mates, so we'll be able to do it ourselves slowly as long as one of us is the leader, and we get a fourth. That fourth will be welcome, of course, and we're not going to be arsehats about it, but tbh interms of our enjoyment of the gamne, he or she will be unnecessary and we'll essentially just be viewing him or her as a bot to pad the numbers. We use Skype while we play, and if left entirely to our own devices we'd be stopping to chat about stuff while we play through the content where we are able. I don't know if DiB has any timelimits which would prohibit that behaviour, but as it stands, the game is forcing either us to alter our preferred playstyle, or the fourth member to just stand around waiting while we have a chinwag. Which is a shame, but it is a (minor) negative aspect of the forced team minimums that stil exist in parts in CoH.

That said, 'forced teaming' does form only a fairly small part of the CoH experience. Overall, it's an extremely flexible game.

And awesome.

Eco

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

For me, it's the super sidekicking. One of the guild mates was starting a FP and I said I'd join but I was 10 levels too high for them. I can't understand not being able to do any repeatable at any level over the minimum.

I'll say one thing for Laser Swords Online:

It brought me back to this game, and hard.

I quit playing CoH for a while, got intrigued by Laser Swords Online, and dived in on getting it. Getting my Soth Marinater to 50 through the class story lines was fun, but then everything stopped abruptly. My companions had nothing to say about my deeds, my wifely companion sent me a couple of e-mails about marriage, but that was it.

All of a sudden, the various annoyances I had with the game came crashing in, and I dropped my sub and resubbed here.

To the place where I had the freedom to play as I wanted, with quicker travel, a better chat system, less loading between areas, no bugs that would lock my system up for 15 minutes on exiting the game, no annoying UI pop ups that would interrupt whatever the hell I was doing, closing my windows in the progress.

While I'm annoyed at the money I spent on the game, I'm grateful it brought me back home. Just sad that my temporary falling out with this game has meant no loyalty stuff for me this April.

I am going to throw two other names out there: Gemstone IV and Dragonrealms. Both are the creations of Simutronics, the company behind the engine used by far-far-MMO. Both are text games. One of them opened its doors in 1990, the other in 1996, and both are still around. Neither of them really are "dungeon crawl team ups" like City of Heroes is, but both showcase a very different kind of interactive world.

I will go as far as to say this: if I were running my own MMO, I would require my developers to play those two games for three months, examine as many systems as possible, then start figuring out how to make them work in a graphical game. Some of the systems are unbelievable: sea travel, spell systems that are based on the alignment of constellations, adjustable spell power where the same power can be used at different strengths, combat with wounds scars and bleeding, variable MP usage depending on your environment, an incredibly extensive library of background RP material. In fact those games are so huge I'm quite sure its impossible to see all of them. Someone needs to be poaching from these games (just like someone needs to poach super sidekicking from CoX).

This quote in my sig will look really bad, but I agree with Arcana wholeheartedly here. The backwards notion that you have to FORCE people to team is anathema to me. If you design your game such that people don't naturally want to play with others and this is a wide enough phenomenon to be commonplace, then FORCING people to team isn't the solution. Clearly, people don't want to team, so what, realistically, do you get by forcing them to do something they don't want to? Last I checked, Star Wars was a subscription-based game still. Why Capital F would I pay money out of my pocket for a game that forced me to do something I didn't want to do? What kind of *** backwards logic is that?

I remember Dr. Zeus made an argument that had me rolling on the floor once a long time ago. He postulated that teaming is a lot like marriage, in the sense that men are afraid of getting married and reluctant to do it, but once they're married, they realise how good it actually is. As the child of divorced parents, this was especially humorous to me, but even just as a person with rudimentary intelligence, it came off as insulting because it insinuated I didn't know what I wanted, and I had to be forced into doing something someone else who knew better though I should want, with about the same amount of regard as a my mother insisting that if only I tried my least favourite food, I might like it... After the twelfth time I've tried and disliked it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville One last thing: isn't it odd how so many things that make this game a solo-friendly game are actually teaming considerations? In effect, this game is not solo-friendly because the solo game itself is special - actually that other game does that in spades. This game is actually solo-friendly because it constantly provides openings to team, which the player can take or not take. You can solo, then decide to team, then quit teaming and go back to soloing. That ability to decide almost moment by moment whether to team or not makes it easy to solo all the time if you want. But its the result of the game spending time making sure you *could* team if you wanted to, by making sure the solo game is not terribly disconnected from the teaming game. You don't lose much by soloing most of the time. But you don't lose much by deciding to team either.

This does make me chuckle from time to time, to be honest, and it IS true. Take for instance what may well have been THE biggest solo-friendly change in the game - the ability to scale AVs down into EBs. This was not done with the intention for players to solo missions that had AVs in them - this is Jack Emmert we're talking about, and he still insisted that basic bosses shouldn't be soloable. This was done because downgrading an AV into an EB enabled small teams of just two or three people to succeed on these missions, where an AV would require a mid-to-large size team of five people and more. It wasn't a solo change, it was a change to enable small teams. And a lot of the game is designed like this.

I think the broader issue is that we really do have a game where teaming is so gosh-dang convenient and inexpensive that even a solitary git like me occasionally does it. Ever since the LFG queue started including TFs and started allowing me to queue from inside an instance, I've spent my entire time in the queue waiting for this or that TF. Why would I not? If I don't get one, nothing changes. If I do get one, it's a nice change of pace. If I can't run it at the moment, I can always refuse. This cheap cost of teaming means I don't need a reason TO team, I need a reason NOT to. Of course, the LFG queue plain doesn't work because people refuse to use it, but that's through no fault of the system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

This thread got my attention, as I'm currently playing that game.

I reallllly miss Recall Friend, Mission Teleporters and Flight. The travel is crazy. I also miss sidekicking. Having to keep a pair close in level is just irritating. Not to mention the level pacts - did CoX ever bring those back?

What I will say, is the the story in that game is typically far superior to what I've seen in Cox. Now, there were the moments of glory in Cox's story, but that other game has, IMO, a better storyline overall.

My other big problem is that with it existing, I'm afraid that my wife has hit a breaking point with CoX, and I'm not sure she'll ever come back. While I like the other game, my time over there I think is convincing me that CoX is overall a better, more convenient game. Unfortunately, not playing with my wife trumps that. I'd rather play that other MMO with her, then CoX without her.

It's an interesting issue and I'm not sure what the answer is, as there is only so much time to play any MMO.

I played with my laser sword for 2 weeks and got really frustrated. After 2 horrible sessions trying to team with a rl friend and getting zip from it I unsubbed.

I never tried the laser swords.

I only have budget for one sub'd mmo and I'd prefer that budget to go towards this one.

My free mmo is sort of similar to the laysthere swords but it's WAY BETTER. It deals with real money. It's what I play when I'm worn out on this one and I don't need make any investments to find enjoyment, or profit...it takes skill tho- not for casual gamers!

You left out one very important point that I didn't see addressed: In this game there can be a clear and distinct benefit to teaming other than just getting into the mission. Yes, I remember the days of broadcasts for fillers because someone wanted to solo a TF. I still think we should be able to do that.

However if I want to take a Blaster into a really high-threat environment I can ask for help. Not just more Blasters (which can be loads of fun) but others as well. I might get a Controller (to lock the targets down), a Defender (that helps me hit harder and get hit less often), a Tanker (to abuse the enemy while I shoot them in the head) or any number of other alternatives. Teaming is not just 'well now we can hit four times as often' it adds a totally new dynamic.

Ever play the ITF with all Tanks? Ever do it with all Defenders? Still fun but two totally different kinds of fun. There isn't one way to do anything in this game. Even if the 'other game' had the best storyline and fighting and teaming mechanics is there any reason to play it more than once? Are there different character classes and different ways to accomplish the same goal? If not then the developers missed the all-important Replayability mark by a good margin.

I paly this game not JUST because of the community...not JUST because of the new shiny every few months...not JUST because of all the OOH AHH special effects. I play it because after I've done it once in the red car I wanna go back and do it again in the BLUE car 'cause the blue car isn't as fast but it does better wheelies!