And this is why City of Heroes will always be unique
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-03-07 19:05 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I don't really mind this, and characters seem to gain some reflection of their capabilities in cut scenes (like one character of mine telekinetically trashing a pair of blast doors) even if they're not workable in gameplay most of the time.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
(The other issue over THERE, to me, is one that has to be there for gameplay. In the IP, lightsabers pretty much cut through anything but another lightsaber, at least in the movies - yes, the books mention resistant metals, but you don't see that unless it's a three foot thick door. In the game - even though it has to be this way, obviously - it's like you have to hack away for several minutes at a piece of paper to cut with one. Part of that lack of feeling of power at times, I suppose.)
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An artifact of MMORPGs. I could mention several dozen like scenarios in CoH. Just as one example, I walk up to a Hellion with my Dual Pistols Defender. I point my gun at his head and shoot him from 6 feet away. The joker then takes out his sledgehammer and hits me square in the jaw. I just stand there and shoot him again.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
(The other issue over THERE, to me, is one that has to be there for gameplay. In the IP, lightsabers pretty much cut through anything but another lightsaber, at least in the movies - yes, the books mention resistant metals, but you don't see that unless it's a three foot thick door. In the game - even though it has to be this way, obviously - it's like you have to hack away for several minutes at a piece of paper to cut with one. Part of that lack of feeling of power at times, I suppose.)
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One of my biggest problems with the complaints about this MMORPG or SWTOR is that people fight against the genre. There's no Star Wars game, of any genre, where lightsabers have worked like they do in the movies. There's likewise few weapons and powers in City of Heroes that truly operate as advertised. The reason is obvious, because these are games. For SWTOR to be realistic, Jedi and Sith should be approximately 10x more powerful than Smugglers. There should never even be a question of who is going to win that fight. Even if the Smuggler is cheating since Jedi and Sith can see the future. But, of course, there has to be some semblance of balance or you might as well not even have a Smuggler class.
Likewise here, Johnny Butane and other commentators have rightly pointed out that Tankers should, given the LORE of comics, never be at any risk against most enemies and should be able to do as much, if not more damage than Blasters or Scrappers. They can't and never will because that's not right for the game.
Arcanaville's OP strikes me as similar to the many WoW fans who expect SWTOR to have all the bells and whistles of an 7 1/2 year old game at launch. For example, her anecdote about the travel time to help a person with a quest. And the fact that she could not get any progress for helping the person like you can here. But then, that's not how it was in Issue 0. I know, because I did it. I remember being in Founder's Falls and being asked to help someone in King's Row. Even with Travel powers I had to:
1) Zone into Talos through the gate since there was no tram then;
2) Take the tram to Steel Canyon's North Tram;
3) Fly to the end of Steel Canyon to the South Tram;
4) Fly to the person I was helping in a corner of the zone.
When I got there, I SKed them and neither they nor I got any exp for killing the boss they needed help with. And I don't remember how long it took, but it took awhile. Even with Flight. In SWTOR today, I can Fleet pass to the Fleet and be on any other planet within a few minutes. Then take the speeder and I'm there. The only problem is where the zone is too high for my character, but then, I have no business being there then anyway.
Given time, SWTOR will eliminate all the downtime too. Everything will be instant travel, because all MMORPGs eventually do that. Sidekicking, which in my opinion is not and never has been a good idea (with no limit on level ranges) will probably never make it in. Thank goodness for that.
I like both games. I take CoH for what it is, I take SWTOR for what it is. I like MMORPGs with all their warts.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
It's interesting to come back to this thread after several pages away (how often do you get to use that phrase?) and am interested now to see the discussion turn towards the immersiveness and factors that give you a 'feel' for the game in which you're in. But I did want to comment on something first.
Arcanaville mentioned the notion that CoH is something of a haven away from other games, and I think that's true. Speaking only for myself, I don't see CoH as an actual MMO. Now that's not because I think it's lacking anything, but because it retains few of the traditional trappings of the vast majority of MMO's. But for me, that's a double-edged sword. What CoH does right, I think it does better than anyone in the industry. Sidekicking, ease of travel, the lack of repair costs on gear, the actual absence of gear, and the 'one size fits all' style of play, replete with difficutly sliders.
The things I think they do badly are raiding (which to me violates the 'one size fits all' rule), a cohesiveness of storytelling (I often now run with my own continuity in my mind as opposed to that of the game...I don't find myself being able to reconcile the disparities between stories over the years), and probably more importantly traditional superhero trappings.
Don't get me wrong; I know Paragon Studios owns this IP and can do as they wish with it within reason, but I feel they've swung and missed on a few key elements that the laser sword MMO gets right first time out of the box. For one, we don't have 'proper' supergroup headquarters. Not to say that people working the base system aren't magicians in my mind, but whereas the space fantasy game makes your transport your home and even gives it missions to do, giving it a purpose, CoH bases don't really do that much at all. Storage and resources are easily handled with Vaults now. Groups can take advantage of all the means of forming a team without ever having once to step inside a base. That same ease of convenience in my mind undercuts this key superhero setting.
And settings, the lack of them, hurts this game enormously. From the time I started this game in 2006 til now, the running joke of an underwater or space zone has continued. We got time travel (more or less), we got the alternate evil dimension (more or less) and now we're getting cosmic-level enemies. The problem is for me is that the things like the Rikti and the Shivans is that instead of being attacked and going to planet X to face them, all the action is confined here, to the city. And I'd argue to the point where the Rikti now seem like an afterthought rather than relevant anymore to the storyline.
I look at the laser sword game, and everywhere I go is different. I can't tell you how my breath was taken away going to that sand world with the two suns. Everything about it was atmospheric, and I felt immersed as if I were in a movie. It helps that things are so far spread out, but touches like little sandstorms right down to famous visual landmarks drew me in and made a statement of telling me where I was and how it was different from other games. Outside of First Ward, I have trouble naming other zones that make me feel like that in CoH.
And lastly, I found I just can't do some things that go without saying for a superhero game. My first character was a SS/Inv tank and...I couldn't pick up anything. I couldn't damage the environment around me, aside from Mayhem/Safeguard missions. I couldn't bash a door down, I couldn't plow through a wall; if I had Laser Eyes, I couldn't burn anything with them. I accept the age of this game and the technical limitations imposed upon it because of that, but I also make the concessions that newer generation games, even if they do not much else right, seem more capable of capturing the atmospheric essence of a lot of powers at their core.
Yes, we have lots of powersets and they all do interesting things, but I don't often find them dynamic. We may be able to beat up large mobs, but I can't tie them up with my handy swingline, or I can't safely incapactiate them because I'm a Claws character and no such option is presented to me. As much as there's freedom in as many powersets as we do, I often find there's a lot of limitation within them, too.
I've always accepted that things in an MMO won't work as they do in their source setting, also. I should be able to take a tank round as a Tank, but I can just as easily be taken off my feet by a guy with a rock or a pipe wrench. If there was something in game design I'd want to see change is an acknowledgement that you 'grow beyond' lesser forms of the same damage, or your weapon can do some of the things you've seen it do on screen.
I think this is why console gaming and MMO gaming are slowly moving towards each other, because MMO gamers see the breadth of options given to console games in terms of customising their characters without necessarily needing to make the 'right' build, and console gamers see a dynamic world they can continue to interact and work with. I think the model for that is coming in Guild Wars 2, myself....
Edit: I did want to say I agree with EvilGeko's post in that I think there's a lot of expectations for all the bells and whistles to be on a new game at launch, which I find highly ironic given how little this game started out with and now people have a wealth of riches thanks to seven years of fixes. It's an unfair comparison given the other game is just over two months' old...
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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See I don't see being able to easily meet up with your team mates as bells and whistles. I see that as a BASIC for MODERN any mmo. This isn't 1991 when the genre was just starting out. Evil mentions that COH didn't have this or that when it was issue 0. Well sorry to say but we've had a number of MMO launches since then. |
Originally Posted by SuperOz
Edit: I did want to say I agree with EvilGeko's post in that I think there's a lot of expectations for all the bells and whistles to be on a new game at launch, which I find highly ironic given how little this game started out with and now people have a wealth of riches thanks to seven years of fixes. It's an unfair comparison given the other game is just over two months' old... S. |
Basics like easy of communication and travel to YOUR TEAM MATES (not necessarily ease of travel everywhere) need to be standard for an mmo that's trying to encourage folks to team more. . . . or at all.
There are some things which I expect as BASICS now in mmos, because developers have had literally years to see how other mmos do it. I cut them even less slack because of the development house that they are.
EDIT: Also not being able to help your buddies who may have started after you did is Guild killer. Such an idea does NOT make it easy for folks to recruit their gaming buddies into their mmo.
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That's where the licensed fanfiction problem really kicks in.|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
I did want to say I agree with EvilGeko's post in that I think there's a lot of expectations for all the bells and whistles to be on a new game at launch, which I find highly ironic given how little this game started out with and now people have a wealth of riches thanks to seven years of fixes. It's an unfair comparison given the other game is just over two months' old...
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A new MMO either needs to get customers from other MMOs, or attract people who have never played MMOs before.
To attract customers from other MMOs, they have to provide the same amount of features, plus new ones - otherwise, they're asking people to pay the same or more for a more limited product.
If they fail to do that, then they need to attract new MMO players who won't have the same expectations of quality - but the fake Star Wars setting works against that - it's a hook that doesn't deliver a real Star Wars experience.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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So, what basics would you assume should be included in ALL MMO's, and why should they be included.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
There are some things which I expect as BASICS now in mmos, because developers have had literally years to see how other mmos do it. I cut them even less slack because of the development house that they are.
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Does this include stuff that, if it were included, would break the "lore" of the game world just for convenience sake of the players ie team up teleporter/Mission TP for example...
I am interested by this, because there are *some* things that i feel that CoX gets horribly wrong (level capped contacts which then results in the "broken" TF style Oroborus flashback system)... and yet, would this be included as an "essential" part of an MMO?
Most other MMO's tend to just have a minimum level requirement for a mission giver, i cannot think of ONE that has a "maximum" level requirement on top of the minimum.
The Mission TP is a *great* boon for CoX, especially for TF's that run across several zones... it is even better when used in conjunction with "Assemble the team", but are these actually *essential* for a game?
Because to be honest, without them, the game is *fine*... they are just a QoL bought convenience.
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You don't need a mission tp system. Many mmos have a que system for missions that work well. Just cause it's one of the things this game DOESN'T do well doesn't mean that ques like that don't work.|
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
So, what basics would you assume should be included in ALL MMO's, and why should they be included.
Does this include stuff that, if it were included, would break the "lore" of the game world just for convenience sake of the players ie team up teleporter/Mission TP for example... I am interested by this, because there are *some* things that i feel that CoX gets horribly wrong (level capped contacts which then results in the "broken" TF style Oroborus flashback system)... and yet, would this be included as an "essential" part of an MMO? Most other MMO's tend to just have a minimum level requirement for a mission giver, i cannot think of ONE that has a "maximum" level requirement on top of the minimum. The Mission TP is a *great* boon for CoX, especially for TF's that run across several zones... it is even better when used in conjunction with "Assemble the team", but are these actually *essential* for a game? Because to be honest, without them, the game is *fine*... they are just a QoL bought convenience. |
It's essential that you make it easy to team. (including making it easy to communicate with team members) That it is all. However the mmo chooses to do that is irrelevant.
I'm NOT talking about crafting pvp or raids.
Being able to easily group and run missions is not something that is or should be rocket science.
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Maybe this is one of those "depends on the person" situation but i am not seeing the enormous burden of meeting up with teammates in that game. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
See I don't see being able to easily meet up with your team mates as bells and whistles. I see that as a BASIC for MODERN any mmo.
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When i wind down from a game session, i have a habit of teleporting to the fleet (for personal reasons since i have crafting alts parked there) so that's always been my starting point which means the next game session i have to travel to meet up or continue where i last left off if soloing and so far i haven't had too much difficulty with that.
I can quick travel teleport if i unlocked the appropriate portal and the speeder helps the rest of the way. Avoiding aggro is a bit more of a challenge only because on some spots there are just too many close together and no alternative routes, though unless it's a cave, that situation is few once you learn the map layout.
Aggroing melee mobs is not much of a problem in a speeder since you have to get damaged before it detoggles. The ranged mobs are tricky to break line of sight before they fire but i've done that enough times to know it's possible. And even without a speeder or it detoggled, if you have enough room to run and can survive long enough, it's still possible to outrun them till you break aggro and they run back, but that is more challenging.
While learning aggro avoidance i did notice something about how they handle aggro over there but haven't fully tested it. Unlike here, very grey mobs over there does still aggro but their aggro range decreases depending on the level disparity between you and the mob (or zone...not sure.) If the mob is lower than you...you have more leeway to avoid them and if they are very low from you, you'll have to practically bump into them before they aggro. The reverse seems to be true...if you are very low compared to the mob/zone, they'll see you from a mile away. So with those in mind, i take appropriate actions.
Is travel in CoX faster than other mmos? Yes in many cases. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad...just depends on how the rest of the game is. I mentioned before, there are things you can do while waiting (crew skills) or even while traveling...i've done that while autorunning on speeder many times.
With the following sentiment i may be in the minority among the CoX players but having fast travel does have a negative side. I've mentioned upthread that the persistent zones that the devs have put lots of work on eventually becomes a burden, a hurdle to avoid.
I guess it makes sense to have quick travel here because there's not much else to distract you from traveling.
I would agree on better communication but i think that's being worked on right now or can be added at some point..have to rewatch that summit video to verify.
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For some games sure. For COX, exactly what is in the zone that really contributes to game play? It's not as if the spawns are all unique, they are mostly cookie cutter of each other.|
Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
Maybe this is one of those "depends on the person" situation but i am not seeing the enormous burden of meeting up with teammates in that game.
When i wind down from a game session, i have a habit of teleporting to the fleet (for personal reasons since i have crafting alts parked there) so that's always been my starting point which means the next game session i have to travel to meet up or continue where i last left off if soloing and so far i haven't had too much difficulty with that. I can quick travel teleport if i unlocked the appropriate portal and the speeder helps the rest of the way. Avoiding aggro is a bit more of a challenge only because on some spots there are just too many close together and no alternative routes, though unless it's a cave, that situation is few once you learn the map layout. Aggroing melee mobs is not much of a problem in a speeder since you have to get damaged before it detoggles. The ranged mobs are tricky to break line of sight before they fire but i've done that enough times to know it's possible. And even without a speeder or it detoggled, if you have enough room to run and can survive long enough, it's still possible to outrun them till you break aggro and they run back, but that is more challenging. While learning aggro avoidance i did notice something about how they handle aggro over there but haven't fully tested it. Unlike here, very grey mobs over there does still aggro but their aggro range decreases depending on the level disparity between you and the mob (or zone...not sure.) If the mob is lower than you...you have more leeway to avoid them and if they are very low from you, you'll have to practically bump into them before they aggro. The reverse seems to be true...if you are very low compared to the mob/zone, they'll see you from a mile away. So with those in mind, i take appropriate actions. Is travel in CoX faster than other mmos? Yes in many cases. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad...just depends on how the rest of the game is. I mentioned before, there are things you can do while waiting (crew skills) or even while traveling...i've done that while autorunning on speeder many times. With the following sentiment i may be in the minority among the CoX players but having fast travel does have a negative side. I've mentioned upthread that the persistent zones that the devs have put lots of work on eventually becomes a burden, a hurdle to avoid. I guess it makes sense to have quick travel here because there's not much else to distract you from traveling. I would agree on better communication but i think that's being worked on right now or can be added at some point. |
My overall point is that the harder you make it for folks to put teams together (and that includes communication) the more it feels like they are isolated. The first genre competitor to this game nearly closed down because teaming over there was like pulling teeth. And the players let them know so loudly on the forums.
Travel isn't the only portion of making it easy to get together to run missions.
Things like pvp crafting raids to me are all bells and whistles. If you core game is a pain to play why on earth would I want to stick around for the rest.
My comments by the way are about modern mmos in general and and what I expect as the BASICS for any mmo launching today (and not in 2001 or 1991).
As you said "it's different for each person," but if I'm spending a significant amount of time trying to mess around with ill thought out systems that make actually grouping up or communicating with others (see this game's second competitor's horrible chat box for instance) then I might as well just solo. Or not play an mmo at all.
EDIT: let me put it another way: I'll put up with a game's UI getting in the way only for so long. There have been so many examples of good mmo UI that it makes me question what a dev team was thinking when they get something THAT BASIC wrong.
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Heh, that's why i said it makes sense in this game for quick travel...though at one point before they "encouraged" door missions, the persistent zones were more relevant. But that hasn't really been the case in a very long time. Which i guess supports my point...that if you add quick travel, the persistent zones that were once useful, now becomes a burden.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
For some games sure. For COX, exactly what is in the zone that really contributes to game play? It's not as if the spawns are all unique, they are mostly cookie cutter of each other.
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Like i also said in that post you quoted. It depends on how the rest of the game is. It's not a straighforward "it takes x minutes too many so it must be bad" situation.
The communication i did agree with you and i they may have something in the next patch...but not sure...i couldn't place full attention at the summit stream since i was at work and they didn't show everything in it anyway.
[EDIT] I have to say so my stance is better understood. I know what happens when the persistent zones become less useful because my feelings for them in this game has changed. I used to like traveling in the very beginning. That's why (and partially because there was no player search function) most of my early alts have flight. It gave me a sense of "patrolling" the streets when i flew above looking for people fighting and then go down to ask if i could join.
But after the door mission encouragement initiative, i have grown to view the persistent zones as an impedance to my fun (door xp)
I guess it helps that CoH at launch was a very different experience, not just in the actual game but in how people were treating the game.
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As I explained my comments are more about mmos in general and not specific to just that mmo. In my mind there are just some things you need to get right out the game, especially in a market where potential players have literally now hundreds of other mmos they can play.|
Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
Heh, that's why i said it makes sense in this game for quick travel...though at one point before they "encouraged" door missions, the persistent zones were more relevant. But that hasn't really been the case in a very long time.
Like i also said in that post you quoted. It depends on how the rest of the game is. It's not a straighforward "it takes x minutes too many so it must be bad" situation. The communication i did agree with you and i they may have something in the next patch...but not sure...i couldn't place full attention at the summit stream since i was at work and they didn't show everything in it anyway. |
The market is not that great for a new mmo starting out. So basic things that want to make folks want to keep player and not get frustrated are things that mmo developers need to be cognizant of. I'd say those type of things need to come FIRST before other bells and whistles.
Everyone's mileage may vary.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
In my mind there are just some things you need to get right out the game, especially in a market where potential players have literally now hundreds of other mmos they can play.
The market is not that great for a new mmo starting out. So basic things that want to make folks want to keep player and not get frustrated are things that mmo developers need to be cognizant of. I'd say those type of things need to come FIRST before other bells and whistles. Everyone's mileage may vary. |
Unfortunately that is the sad truth in the current mmospace. Actually even single player games really can be affected by that state of mind.
But it is debatable as to what is core and what is QoL. But even if it is missing some core features, it could still come down to the whole game or the playerbase as a whole to see if it's a game breaker or not.
I don't know the percentage of players on either side, i just know that the missing ones did not sour the game for me.
But as you say...mileage may vary. Just have to use hindsight in these cases. But for contrast...when CoH launched without pvp, market, loot team/player search and the like which other mmos had at the time, it too was considered missing features. But that didn't matter to me since i liked what the game did have.
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True. But it's been said that if COH launched now as it was back in issue 0 it wouldn't last 6 months before it was shut down.
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Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
Unfortunately that is the sad truth in the current mmospace. Actually even single player games really can be affected by that state of mind.
But it is debatable as to what is core and what is QoL. But even if it is missing some core features, it could still come down to the whole game or the playerbase as a whole to see if it's a game breaker or not. I don't know the percentage of players on either side, i just know that the missing ones did not sour the game for me. But as you say...mileage may vary. Just have to use hindsight in these cases. But for contrast...when CoH launched without pvp, market, loot team/player search and the like which other mmos had at the time, it too was considered missing features. But that didn't matter to me since i liked what the game did have. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Not sure there's a way to determine that, though CoX still does fill a void with its robust character customizations so it might still find its niche. As i said, it might come down to what the game as a whole have. That other game, though many features is similar to other mmos, has something the others don't.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
True. But it's been said that if COH launched now as it was back in issue 0 it wouldn't last 6 months before it was shut down.
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And i must say, it's one thing to read text about your dastardly deeds...it's another to hear your enemies scream as you watch them get ejected into space when you chose to open the airlock.
Scary how much i enjoy that though.
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Keep in mind we are not talking about a COH from issue 0 launching back in the early 2000s when there are that many other mmos. We're talking about in this current market. COH from issue 0 was lacking many things that modern mmos have out of the gate now. That is no inventions, no end game/incarnate content, no newspaper missions, no villain class, a lack of of many zones, lack of pvp, bases, etc, etc.
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Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
Not sure there's a way to determine that, though CoX still does fill a void with its robust character customizations so it might still find its niche. As i said, it might come down to what the game as a whole have. That other game, though many features is similar to other mmos, has something the others don't.
And i must say, it's one thing to read text about your dastardly deeds...it's another to hear your enemies scream as you watch them get ejected into space when you chose to open the airlock. Scary how much i enjoy that though. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I realize that and i still say it's about the game as a whole. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Keep in mind we are not talking about a COH from issue 0 launching back in the early 2000s when there are that many other mmos. We're talking about in this current market. COH from issue 0 was lacking many things that modern mmos have out of the gate now. That is no inventions, no end game/incarnate content, no newspaper missions, no villain class, a lack of of many zones, lack of pvp, bases, etc, etc.
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CoH issue 0 may have many missing features, but it also didn't have as large a debt in developing it without those features. So it might still be viable if it gets enough people to like what it does have which other games don't.
[edit] Also, if CoX launched today and NCSoft's publishing director goes through with his statement in GDC, CoX would be designed as F2P from the start so that would also have an influence in its viability.
Though it could possibly get more people though if it had those features. So it's a good thing for the other game that it does for the big ones. People may differ on how well it was implemented but again, need hindsight to see the full impact of their decisions. And the rest, as in all mmos, can be added later.
If you had a large initial cost and missing those features, then yes probably you won't get as many customers to buy in long enough for you to pay back that debt. But that might not be much of a problem over there if what they've been saying at their investore calls holds up which from recent news may do that.
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Fair enough.
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Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
I realize that and i still say it's about the game as a whole.
CoH issue 0 may have many missing features, but it also didn't have as large a debt in developing it without those features. So it might still be viable if it gets enough people to like what it does have which other games don't. [edit] Also, if CoX launched today and NCSoft's publishing director goes through with his statement in GDC, CoX would be designed as F2P from the start so that would also have an influence in its viability. Though it could possibly get more people though if it had those features. So it's a good thing for the other game that it does for the big ones. People may differ on how well it was implemented but again, need hindsight to see the full impact of their decisions. If you had a large initial cost and missing those features, then yes probably you won't get as many customers to buy in long enough for you to pay back that debt. But that might not be much of a problem over there if what they've been saying at their investore calls holds up which from recent news may do that. |
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This is spot on, for me, and pretty much what I was talking about earlier in this thread. The "freedom" I crave from games is the freedom to lose myself within them while the game mechanics support the illusion.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its extreme, but there is a kernel of truth in it I can't ignore: I find that trying to play Jedi as my mind's eye thinks of Jedi is almost the worst possible thing I can do. My counselor plays far better almost never touching her lightsaber, and leveraging companions tends to be just as important as whatever you're doing. I find when I stop thinking of it as a genre game and start thinking about it as a generic MMO, my performance gets a lot better.
This is mostly a matter of personal perspective, but I find that its far more often that I'm forgetting I'm even playing an MMO when I'm playing City of Heroes than with any other game I'm playing. I know probably all the ways to game the AI in this game, and my knowledge of what I'm fighting is probably better than most MMO players for most games. But I tend to forget all that, or at least not really dwell on it most of the time I'm playing. I'm just shooting stuff. I know this because when I find myself in a situation where I feel doing the right thing is critical - say in a very tough mission or on a trial or task force badge run or something similar - its extremely noticable to me that I'm playing a completely different game. Or maybe the game is the same but there's a completely different me playing it. When The Matrix Online was being beta tested and then released, I mentioned how weird it was that replicating the *feel* of the movies was easier in City of Heroes than in MxO. That game tried to replicate the mental state of melee fighting with what I called "chicklet combat" at the time. The problem was that it didn't evoke the martial arts combat I think most people were expecting, and certainly not what I was expecting. I personally think if you're going to use an IP for a game, the game should not just draw backstory from that IP, its gameplay should evoke something important about the IP. In many ways, Arkham Asylum is *all* evocation, and it seems to have done well there. And I think City of Heroes tries harder to evoke its powers concepts than invoke their mechanics (although it could do better), and I think that is to the game's overall benefit. I think the best way I can put it is that not only do I like to play City of Heroes, I like to watch myself play City of Heroes. That's not always true even of other games I actually like to play. |
In my opinion, most games follow certain game mechanics and trends and rules that defy the spirit (the fiction and the illusion) of the source material (whether it is a popular IP or just something original based on things we are somewhat familiar with). A concentrated effort to seamlessly blend the fiction with the game-mechanics/gameplay/complete-user-experience is the key to success for a player like myself. Obviously there will always be limitations and compromises, but most every other mmo seems to fail far too greatly for my tastes.
To include Seebs's reply:
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Originally Posted by seebs
I am something of a method RPer, and I tend to play all MMOs by playing the character as I think the character ought to behave.
This is much less of a detriment to my success in CoH than it is in some games. |
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
First, I love this game in part because it is different from many others, both at the time of its inception and since. This includes the freedom to not team (I soloed my first character, a defender, most of the way to 50 if you can believe it) and also great freedom when I do team, thanks to sidekicking and exemplaring (which are now even better implemented than when I started).
Second, the Game with the Laser Swords is hardly the first "Massively Single-Player Game", and not even the first one based around a well-known Sci-Fi universe. Lately I've been playing the Game with the Pointy Ears and Bumpy Foreheads, and one of the observations frequently made there (sometimes favorably, sometimes disapprovingly) is that until one reaches endgame, there's very little need or incentive to team. Which fits the IP, of course; "these are the voyages" of a single starship, I mean player, at a time.
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This is silly of me to post... So, of course, I am going to...|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
...
Which fits the IP, of course; "these are the voyages" of a single starship, I mean player, at a time. |
That last line of yours inspired a completely different thought...
"These are the days of our lives..."
An mmorpg that required teaming in order to inflict negative drama onto your character (the goal of the game).
Player A and B were going to get married... until Player C drove his car into the bride, sending her into a coma... Player D operated on the bride only to unlock her repressed memories of being an assassin hired to kill the man she loved... She, of course, kills Player D's family to make sure he doesn't reveal her secret...
I don't know... Maybe that is what the Sims Online should have shot for.
I'm ending my foray into this line of thought... I leave it to someone else to go ahead and make the game though.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Instead of armor, they could have more strongly leveraged stances. But then that would create potential issues for the crafting system, although I think those were resolvable also. If anything, the crafting system should be the place where the conceptual glitches occur, because everyone knows that the crafting system in most MMOs is metagaming anyway.|
Originally Posted by BellaStrega
The work on the expanded universe has been uneven, but one of the nice things about the "Old Republic" era is that it is fairly open-ended leaving room for all kinds of authentically "Star Wars" stories that wouldn't be possible if people stuck to the original trilogy.
I do admit the gameplay doesn't quite match what I expect of Jedi from the movies and the books - but I don't see any way for the game to do that without simply making the laser sword types completely overpowered compared to everyone else. Works in fiction, sucks in a game. |
To be honest, I think crafting in *this* game should have probably been made much simpler, and much more metagaming rather than trying so hard to make it "real." Its not like any of us thinks we're actually walking around with all that stuff crammed into our pockets.
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I'm sure someone out there has a Pack Rat character who has been greatly offended by this.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
To be honest, I think crafting in *this* game should have probably been made much simpler, and much more metagaming rather than trying so hard to make it "real." Its not like any of us thinks we're actually walking around with all that stuff crammed into our pockets.
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As far as game with the laser swords, I can't really give a reason as to why I stopped playing. I just sort of did. I mean with our Distinguished Competition, it was the lack of content (every hero or villain will do the exact same missions to level up with the sole exception or three per mentor). The laser swords also has that problem, but I can't even get motivated to roll another class to see its story like I did with our Distinguished Competition.
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I find it *very very* hard to actually roll another character in most MMO's unless there actually *IS* a different story for it to experience. The class quests in the laser sword MMO do help that.|
Originally Posted by Rikis
The laser swords also has that problem, but I can't even get motivated to roll another class to see its story like I did with our Distinguished Competition.
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CoX took me over 4 years for me to get my 2nd 50.. granted it was villain side (1st 50 was hero side), but now i just don't have the motivation to level up another character.. because i have already seen the early several times. And it is this "repetition of content just to try out a different powerset" that puts me off from replaying the content. I must have done Atlas park/Kings row more times than i care to imagine, and if anything, it just drives me up the wall.
I guess that is the "completionist" in me, in that i would rather do *all* the content on one character, instead of having to keep track of what I have done on one character, so I know NOT to do it on the next character.
Sure, I still havent done ALL the content available heroside so far, but I know that I CAN do all the content heroside, and then go and do the same villain side if i so desire.
*shrugs* Still love CoX when i get onto my 50 though....
*BOOM* Go get them monkeys!
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I don't know why I'm bothering, but....it's not fake. If the creator of the story gets behind and approves it, it becomes canon. The only person at that point who thinks and considers it fake is you. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's where the licensed fanfiction problem really kicks in.
A new MMO either needs to get customers from other MMOs, or attract people who have never played MMOs before. To attract customers from other MMOs, they have to provide the same amount of features, plus new ones - otherwise, they're asking people to pay the same or more for a more limited product. If they fail to do that, then they need to attract new MMO players who won't have the same expectations of quality - but the fake Star Wars setting works against that - it's a hook that doesn't deliver a real Star Wars experience. |
Every game has had its shortcomings at launch, some games have had worse launch features than this (dare I mention the Distinguished Competition's cross-platform game?) and yet this is somehow overlooked for the entitled need to have it perfect. Arguing that you ask people to pay for limited product would mean this game would never have gotten off the ground....
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
So what are you saying, because I really cannot understand the point being made?
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.