And this is why City of Heroes will always be unique

I think a lot of folks aren't cutting that other game a lot of slack because of who it's made by.

They aren't some new kid around the block, even if they are new to mmos.

And more importantly their (relatively) new overlords ARE sure as hell NOT new to mmos. Important things like being able to form teams easily or communicate easily are not things players are willing to cut new game slack on, becuase this is NOT the first time at the rodeo. There are so many mmos that have come out in just the past year (lets not even talk about the past 5 years) that the BASICs are things people expect to be there at LAUNCH. If they aren't you're (the developers/publishers) going to hear about it. Loudly. Doesn't matter whatever reason those basics aren't there. They are expected to be their for one reason: cause they're the mmo basics!

With that said I personally am willing to cut them SOME slack. But not much and not for long, with how much that game reportedly cost to make and how large their staff was.

With that said for the hour or so I played it on a friend's comp that game was fun, and certainly did not feel like a solo affair. Did I NEED to team? NO, did I enjoy it: sure. Was it better than the FIRST game based on that IP. HELLS YES. Would I quit this game for it. No. Would I sub to it. No. It was fun but it sure as hell didn't blow my mind enough to compete with THIS game or other more recent mmos I've played. (yes I know that's not the majority opinion, but when have I ever cared about what the majority of mmo/video game fans care about.)

I don't think more opportunities for "forced teams" (notice the quotes) are what mmos need. I think more reasons to want to do so cause it is fun and EASY TO FORM A TEAM and GET TO YOUR TEAM, are key.

Although the thread got side tracked a bit, as I mentioned yesterday its irrelevant to my point whether the referenced game has a good or bad environment for teaming. I can make that case strongly, but I'm not really intending to do that here. What is objectively true and isn't a comment on the game is that lots of other people are making that case and the remedy is often stated to be that teaming needs to be more mandatory.

Its that design philosophy that isn't just espoused by developers but also many players that is at the heart of my commentary. If you believe teaming is great in that other game, fantastic. You can still comment on why people often think it needs to be more mandatory than it already is for progress, whether you think the current teaming model sucks or is awesome or anything in between. Its a commentary about player beliefs and preferences, not a specific game being referenced only for its contemporary relevance.

I also say that City of Heroes seems to have stumbled into a unique environment where that principle doesn't have to be seriously challenged. Its a given here that that should be minimized to the best extent possible ("best extent possible" being a matter of judgment). Both the majority of developers of the game and the majority of players of the game seem to take this completely for granted that teaming should be barrier-free, but not overly leveraged, end game notwithstanding. I originally contended that this may be largely unique in the MMO space, although other players have suggested that its not as unique as I originally asserted it to be. That the environment may be more or less unique is also primarily about this game, and not really about other games except as they represent counter-examples to the assertion.

Heh. I've tried that whole "discuss the state of gaming, not the games" schtick before and had it fly like a Led Zeppelin.

ObTeaming - I would agree that one of this game's strengths is that it was usually relatively easy to join up with a team, and it has only become easier as time has passed. (Anyone remember in the original CoH beta when the tram literally stopped at every station on its particular line? If you were three stations away, you got on and off three times.)

Then again, I am still mystified as to why "sidekicking" has never really caught on in other games yet. I like to think it's because the whole concept of "levels" is slowly beginning to become obsolete, but we're a long way from that still, I suppose.

See, here's the thing - The "dial it down and then dial it up little by little" philosophy applies to a lot more than just things like damage stats from new powers.

When things are hard, people equate the effort with quality. "Look how much hard work I'm putting into this, it must be really valuable to spend my time this way."

They come to associate the pain with the reward. Typically, if there's a problem it's not that the pain exists, it's that the reward is too small. Snobs even complain about the easing of the pain as "dumbing down" of the game.

Travel is one of those measures of the pain, or of challenge if you prefer. Removing the "challenge" of travel and teaming is, in the minds of a certain breed of player, a reduction in the value of the game and in the value of the player's overall investment in the game.

The question really comes down to how influential your hard-core players are versus those who are simply annoyed by obstacles to travel and/or teaming. In City of Heroes, we don't bat an eye at base teleporters or Assemble The Team powers because they fit the genre of the game. In a science fiction game, a teleport to your teammates ability breaks immersion. It becomes a case of game mechanics intruding upon game experience, even though the mechanics in question ostensibly promote game experience of a different kind.

I don't think there's any one-size-fits-all answer. I DO think that people who assume the attitude that "all would be well if we just had more forced grouping" are people who have a particular idea of what the MM in MMORPG actually stands for. A lot of them are the old school raid crew and a lot of them are simply of the mind that anything you can accomplish alone is not really anything of value. If only you forced encounters to require groups, you'd be automatically adding value to the game without making any other adjustments!

I agree that it's a silly concept but that's how they think. A $20 bottle of wine is clearly better than a $8 bottle of wine regardless of the year, the grapes, the locale that produced it, the winery, or any of a myriad of other factors that might make that less expensive bottle a good value. Bigger is better to these people, and it happens that a lot of "these people" are either MMO developers themselves or they have convinced the developers that they are the largest audience that exists for a proposed game.

The only thing that will change the perceptions of these people is for new games to launch that succeed despite failing to cater to their preconceptions.

Hi everyone,

This thread is pretty interesting, and we appreciate the constructive discussion that's going on. All we ask is that you avoid discussing other games specifically, and follow other forum rules as applicable.

All the best,
~Freitag

Hmmm, a glitch in the Matrix. I guess the powers that be have spoken.

In regards to ease of teaming, it's something of a puzzle to me that the LFG queue, which makes teaming for certain things about as easy as it could possibly get, seems to get so little use. I even see people recruiting for Death From Below in Help channel, when I've sat in the queue for upwards of ten minutes without getting assigned to team.

It's as if the idea of a PuG is too much for many people to desire or handle, even if the team they ultimately organize themselves turns out to be pretty much just a PuG.