And this is why City of Heroes will always be unique


Arcanaville

 

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Originally Posted by Bosstone View Post
In City I have a sword made of fire twice as long as any lightsaber which I use to lay waste to 10+ enemies at a time.

I wouldn't object to a laser sword in City (god I want a Vanguard Titan sword) but I surely ain't complaining.
Also this.


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Originally Posted by Pebblebrook View Post
Not really a coincidence that returning players say that, though i think it's a bit of a biased sample, but not unbelievable since CoX does have unique qualities. In contrast, i see many comments in various places where it touts the merits and unique qualities of the now defunct glowsword mmo. But that didn't quite help their overall population.
They shot themselves in the foot with a bazooka. Nothing will help you recover from that.


 

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Originally Posted by rsclark View Post
They shot themselves in the foot with a bazooka. Nothing will help you recover from that.
Heh, not sure how much that shot helped their foot...but it is worth noting their reason for loading that bazooka in the first place. But that's a whole other discussion.


 

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Originally Posted by Bosstone View Post
In City I have a sword made of fire twice as long as any lightsaber which I use to lay waste to 10+ enemies at a time.
One aspect I like about this game is that while its story genre is superheroes (and super villains) its gameplay is superpowers. And super powers can encompass almost anything.

One thought I've often had was that I think it would be cool if the different game zones were not primarily level-centric but theme-centric. Think Planetary. Planetary was a comic with a meta-twist: each issue's style was reflective of the content, and most issues focused on a different comic or literary sub-genre: Chinese Ghost stories, Japanese Monster movies, the golden age of US comics, etc. I've often thought it would be neat if we could do something similar. There are hints of that: the RWZ is the obvious homage to the alien invasion theme, and we do have monster island(s). I wonder how far you could go with that without getting too cheesy.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
One thought I've often had was that I think it would be cool if the different game zones were not primarily level-centric but theme-centric.
That would be cool, but it might need a lot of extra work to try and balance each zone enemy groups and challenges for 1-50 - but they do seem to be taking a much more theme focused approach to new zones and zone revamps - like Atlas Park, First Ward and Dark Astoria have a lot mroe depth and variety than most of the older zones.


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Like I've always said, City of Heroes has been quietly innovating MMORPGs since 2004. Too bad about that "quietly" part. For whatever reason the game has always been and continues to be very much under the radar.

However, more and more I've found that MMORPGs sacrifice too much to accommodate those massively multiplayers. I look at what can be done with single player RPGs, and MMORPGs do not compare favorably at all. The MMORPG is very primitive by comparison.

Other people do more to stop your fun than to add to it. That is the single biggest problem with MMORPGs as I see it. People who mostly or exclusively team say it themselves. They team because the game itself isn't fun. Other people are fun, but not the game. With SPRGPs, the game itself is fun.


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Originally Posted by Neuronia View Post
This has been my biggest obstacle to getting friends to join.

City of Heroes is too much of a sandbox. They complain there are too many choices, too many contacts, too many zones...they want a linear contact and level chain...so they go back to what they are trained to do.
I can agree with that, in that there is no set path. Hell, even now I tend to just "go with the flow" and very rarely plan out what contact to choose next. I believe that this is because I am so used to having the ability to just "run back and talk" to an outleveled mission giver, and then start their mission chain at a far later date.

Side note: The last MMO that i hit the cap in, i actually hit it just over halfway through one of the 2 "45-50" zones. I then went back and started to do the content that I had missed out on (the "item drop" quests, the "hidden" quest givers from the low level zones that i missed out on) etc.

In CoX you *can* find yourself locked out from contacts. This is typically because the contact system is a bit stupid in my mind, and that if you are *over* the cap for a contact, you have to go and use Oroborus to replay the missed content... which puts you into TF mode, which then prevents you from getting help from a friend for a particularly tricky boss/contact unless you want to restart the whole arc again from scratch (it can happen depending on your build... and typically arises at the end of the arc, which can lead to resentment for wasted time/effort)

Other MMO's tend to go the other way, and just have a *minimum* level limit to gain access to said content (they don't care if you are 20 levels above the recommended level, at least you can go and do it).

First Ward for example is 20-29... which means that higher level characters have to use Oroborus to run the content.

Yes, I know that I can stop XP for it, but for a *new* player, who doesnt necessarily know the in's and out's of the game system, it can be a shock. Other MMO's dont have this "disable XP" option (well, not one that I know of).


 

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I'm not going to lie, I can see a lot of similarities between the community environment of this game and that of Star Wars Galaxies pre-NGE. (we can talk about games that no longer exist right?)

The game we're playing is fun, engaging, and enables things no other mmo does. Yet it doesn't seem to be pulling in new players at the rate we're thinking it should.

There's this possibility, a shadowed rider on the horizon staring at us, that the higher ups in the company somewhere might attempt a shocking reboot of the game in an attempt to "fix" it. And we all know how horrific that can be. (Please don't delete my class!)

But there is also another thing. I'm sure many of you have played LoL. I won't mention anything about it other than this game suffers from an extreme case of "Tyranny of the Majority" and that's all you need to know. The first group of gamers that started playing the game created an environment that was extremely hostile to new players. The game itself is growing due to regular game updates, constantly adding new and cool stuff, basically the exact same treatment we get from NCSoft and Paragon regarding our game.
But whereas our game isn't gaining new subscribers at an alarming rate, the other game has surpassed WoW in active users and is steadily climbing.

Perhaps there's something WE can do. We've certainly got the assets we'd need to make something happen: a community people would want to join, friendly characters willing to help out in-game, people who really care about the game's success who would want to see it blossom further. We should really form a community effort to boost this game's publicity to really reflect what people can get out of it.

Perhaps... we could create a fan-made series of mission architect missions with a distinct sci/fi bent and a series of characters to match, then showcase it all through a trailer only to bust out the "surprise, this game's already out and free-to-play, and you might even have an old account." Bonus points if we manage to make better storylines than certain other sci/fi properties out there already.

Perhaps we could do a series of packages like that, and turn it into a meme. I'm on spring break, maybe a few other players are too and would be willing to pitch in.


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Originally Posted by Daemodand View Post
However, more and more I've found that MMORPGs sacrifice too much to accommodate those massively multiplayers. I look at what can be done with single player RPGs, and MMORPGs do not compare favorably at all. The MMORPG is very primitive by comparison.
That sadly seems to be true, though in fairness, the cost does ramp up a lot when you add "mmo" to that "rpg".

But i see what you mean. This could be considered ironic but ever since my first mmo, i've been looking for games that recaptures that magic of feeling very immersed into another world. I got lucky with that my second mmo had an immersive world as well, but that got "shot in the foot with a bazooka."

And ever since, i've been looking for another game that i can get that feeling again but so far all mmos i've tried, even CoX and that new one (though i like both in their own way) doesn't quite make me feel as immersed as that first mmo that was made 13 years ago.

I did find that feeling again, not in an mmo but with single-player console games. The post-apocalyptic one, the fantasy #4 and their new #5...even the western and detective one though those aren't really rpgs.

If the devs that made those fantasy #4 and 5 rpg comes up with a similarly immersive game but with customizable superheroes, i would be all over that game.


 

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Originally Posted by Party_Kake View Post
(we can talk about games that no longer exist right?)
We can talk about any game in violation of the rules as long as we are under the protection of the special people's thread yes.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post
We can talk about any game in violation of the rules as long as we are under the protection of the special people's thread yes.
I'm not sure what is sadder. The fact that you operate under the delusion that other people have special privileges you lack, or the fact that you appear to revel in the fact that you lack them.


Now behave or I'll have you sent to Siberia.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Which, as I said, is extreme. Departing from the source material won't kill a game. But it is true that the more you do it, the more people will notice flaws in the game. KOTOR was a good game, and being a good game even people unaware of the backstory were willing to *learn* the backstory for the game, or even *from* the game.
Which is an interesting take, because KOTOR's only real departure from the backstory is having different characters and the in-game dates. Other than that, it's Star Wars. The other game is much the same - it fits the source IP in every way but the date (and much of the source IP is set within a similar time period).

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You'll find anecdotes both ways, but I think the more recent MMO is struggling a lot more with this issue that KOTOR did.
I think that the backstory/setting is the least of the game's issues, and is likely one of the reasons it is doing as well as it is. Getting away from the purely inflammatory label of "licensed fan fiction"*

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Here, I think we tend, on average, to have the opposite problem. Here, people who want the superhero experience often tend to get it, while people expecting certain MMO conventions often fail to get them. I don't think that matches every single players experience, but I do believe it roughly matches the average experience.
Huh, weird. I do get the MMO conventions in the other game, but I also do get the feel of the intended IP.

CoH is not that far removed from many MMO conventions as it stands. It does tend to make characters far more powerful than other games, whereas the other game in question tends to fit into the "three minions = one hero" formula someone said this game was designed around. Which is something most people haven't really mentioned.

The other game actually lacks a lot of MMO conventions as well, although different conventions, and it adheres to many very closely - more closely than CoH does. One being that in the other game, you can fight multiple mobs at once, even if not nearly as many as CoH.

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I don't think its a coincidence that many returning players don't necessarily say that every other MMO they've played since leaving was bad and now they realize this game is the best: rather the most common statement I've personally heard was that this game is a nice refuge from other MMOs. I don't hear people say that about other MMOs in general. And its an odd statement to make in general, although I think its actually saying something particularly interesting about City of Heroes.
It's not really a refuge for me. I haven't touched any other MMOs in well over a year, nor really many single player games (I played DA2 in January and a lot of Space Pirates and Zombies before that). I decided to check out what CoH looked like now and I really enjoy it. But I am simultaneously enjoying that other game.

* Something like this could only be said by someone who has never worked on a licensed IP before - I've worked with Buffy and Warcraft, among others, and had the acquaintance of someone who was writing a trilogy of Star Wars novels, and the process is generally fairly stringent and rigorous, and they won't hesitate to rough you up a bit (metaphorically) if your work doesn't fit their universe. In the case of Star Wars, the writer in question was told he couldn't use the word "toast," it had to be fried Alderaanian bread or some such thing. Which was weird, because "toasted" was used in the first movie, but whatever.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Now behave or I'll have you sent to Siberia.
Would this be proof of what was said?


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

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Originally Posted by BellaStrega View Post
I think that the backstory/setting is the least of the game's issues, and is likely one of the reasons it is doing as well as it is. Getting away from the purely inflammatory label of "licensed fan fiction"*
I'll be honest, my opinion of the expanded universe has not in general been high, but when the prequels were released I realized that it was my view of the original trilogy that was the exception, not the rule. Taken as a whole, the vast majority of the Star Wars universe is not very much like the original trilogy, at least in my opinion. And I fully recognize that most expanded universe content is both licensed by, and rigorously content-controlled by, Lucas.

But to correct myself, I don't think the backstory hurts TOR. If anything, the story itself is one of its strengths. What I intended to say was that in my opinion the gameplay doesn't match my expectations of an MMO advertised to include Jedi, because I have preconceived notions of what Jedi are from the backstory of the property I'm most familiar with. Its ten times more effective to spam heals on Cuisinart and let him go berserk than try to cut things in half while Holiday "distracts" the targets, which is a bit of a cognitive dissonance for me.

Here, I don't have that particular difficulty. Although we could only wish for writing that good (although I actually like the writing in DA in I22, as opposed to just not disliking it in general), I'm not usually fighting preconceived notions of how certain things should play, probably because I simply have not many strong metaphoric expectations for how things should play beyond simply things here. I don't "know" these powersets and these archetypes from anywhere besides the game itself. They are what the game purports them to be.


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What destroys every other MMO for me, and was more pronounced in the laser swords game, is the open world missions. In CoH, I'm told I'm the only one who can take care of this problem and I never get there and find 10 other super-heroes obviously already dealing with the problem. In other games, even if I can manage to salvage some small feeling of immersion by trying to ignore other players while simultaneously competing with them for goals, that immersion is completely shattered when I have to wait in line for a particular spawn.

The sad thing is, the laser sword game is one that (at least in the areas I got to before I quit playing), could have allowed the player to maintain immersion while having other player characters running around the same mission areas. If they hadn't written those missions, as every other MMO also does, as if it were a single player game. The opening areas for each class worked very well with other players running around them, even if they were apparently doing the same thing you were. They lost that once you left those places.

The only thing in CoH that breaks immersion for me is the way the devs chose to implement the auction house and the AE. Both could have been done using more super-hero appropriate themes.

The other major thing that causes me to get quickly bored with other MMOs is the wide range of powers available in CoH. In other games, there is not a huge difference between various paths and skills a class can take. That may not be true at the highest levels of the game, but, the lack of any noticeable difference has kept me from getting to those levels. In CoH, I can have a number of characters with the same Primary powerset play completely differently from each other if they have different Secondaries. That's not true of all powersets, but it does seem true, at least to me, of the majority of them. That effectively gives CoH 10 or 20 times the number of classes that any other game has.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I'll be honest, my opinion of the expanded universe has not in general been high
"Low" is generally the default setting for opinions on licensed fanfiction


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The work on the expanded universe has been uneven, but one of the nice things about the "Old Republic" era is that it is fairly open-ended leaving room for all kinds of authentically "Star Wars" stories that wouldn't be possible if people stuck to the original trilogy.

I do admit the gameplay doesn't quite match what I expect of Jedi from the movies and the books - but I don't see any way for the game to do that without simply making the laser sword types completely overpowered compared to everyone else. Works in fiction, sucks in a game.


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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
"Low" is generally the default setting for opinions on licensed fanfiction
You have no idea what you're talking about.


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Originally Posted by BellaStrega View Post
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I've tried a few of the "expanded universe" efforts - they were ok, but forgettable - and certainly not Star Wars - the only difference between them and the stuff on fanfiction.net was that they were on paper, and not digital


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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I've tried a few of the "expanded universe" efforts - they were ok, but forgettable - and certainly not Star Wars - the only difference between them and the stuff on fanfiction.net was that they were on paper, and not digital
Like I said...

I am not arguing that all of the EU fiction is good (although some of it is - it depends a lot on the writer and editor, and it is not uniquely bad compared to original fiction). What I am saying is that licensed fiction has to go through a lot of hoops and approvals to fit the timelines and expectations that are consistent with the property. Fan fiction does not have to fit an existing structure, nor are there expectations of particular professional standards. I have done licensed work, as have many people I know personally.

Calling it licensed fan fiction is downright ignorant.

Edit: Since I do not believe your involvement in this discussion is even within spitting distance of "good faith," my responses aren't for your benefit. I don't respect you enough to even try to care about changing your opinion. I just want to post factual information to counter your nonsense.


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Star Wars launched with a really atrocious /who window and left people to their own devices with bare-bones interface tools.

I took a two year break from City and have come back on and off, and it's always heart-warming to receive blind invites or tells to do things. And it's rarely to do something hard or intense, just fun normal grouping. I really enjoy the community here.


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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Compared to the wretched hive over there?
An apt description. I don't know how you can be a fan of the sandbox MMO from 2003 and think TOR is progress without being a Lucas slave, and then there are the die-hard BioWare fans who are just... mmmph.


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Originally Posted by ImpactHound View Post
An apt description. I don't know how you can be a fan of the sandbox MMO from 2003 and think TOR is progress without being a Lucas slave, and then there are the die-hard BioWare fans who are just... mmmph.
It actually is progress, just uneven. Some things are retrograde (the way they do quest hubs) and others are actually new and innovative (implementing a single-player storyline for every class). There are also numerous quality of life improvements in various features that exist in other MMOs that do make getting around easier.

I'm not a Lucas slave and I'm not a die-hard Bioware fan, but the laser sword MMO is actually fairly good. They need to improve it a lot in the near future, however.


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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post
Star Wars the Old Republic has laser swords used to slay Jedi Knights on Korriban. You cannot get much better than that.
Well... you can.

One of mine over there is a Sith Marauder. He actually shares something in common (no, not dual blades) with a set complained about here - Titan Weapons.

Titan Weapons has people complaining about the lack of "hit" sounds, so it sounds like you're constantly whiffing. So does the other. It's very strange feeling. I think it's easier to deal with an "I hit" sound that doesn't actually work with you hitting things than it does to hit things without sounding like it.

I hadn't actually realized before that just how much difference a *small* sound can make.

(The other issue over THERE, to me, is one that has to be there for gameplay. In the IP, lightsabers pretty much cut through anything but another lightsaber, at least in the movies - yes, the books mention resistant metals, but you don't see that unless it's a three foot thick door. In the game - even though it has to be this way, obviously - it's like you have to hack away for several minutes at a piece of paper to cut with one. Part of that lack of feeling of power at times, I suppose.)