Super Packs Update 2/13/2012 - The Numbers
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-02-13 18:06 in Developers' Corner
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I get two to three of them running all the DA arcs on Beta... and I'm ghosting as much as I can as I test the arcs.
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Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno
Is there going to be a way in the future to acquire Enhancement Catalysts other than the super packs or running incarnate content?
And if anyone knows, what's the drop rate of these things looking like in incarnate content? |
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I admit, I've been tempted to buy a few packs, just on the off chance that a $5 purchase would net me an ATO. If I did, I could turn my $5 investment into Inf$300,000,000 by selling it on the market. I could earn the same money by playing, but this is just a QoL improvement by saving me time.
Also, isn't paying $15/month to get VIP perks paying to win, by some definitions of "win"? It's certainly an "unfair" advantage over free players.
And how close does that tread to RMT, anyway? Buying a Super Pack is buying a chance at trading real money for Influence. Why not cut out the middle step and let me pay directly for Influence? I mean, everyone tells me playing the market is a no-brainer, so why waste my time with it if I'm willing to charge my purples to Visa?
The good news, though, is that this loosening of the definition could lead to players getting something they've asked for for a while: buying their way directly to level 50. Skipping the "boring lower levels" would be a real QoL improvement for some people. What would be a fair price, US$25 per character?
No, I don't think any of these are necessarily good ideas, but logically, they aren't too far away from where we are now. Me, I don't care what people do. It's a freaking game, not rocket surgery. No lives will be lost, either way.
@Glass Goblin - Writer, brainstormer, storyteller, hero
Though nothing will drive them away
We can beat them, just for one day
We can be heroes, just for one day
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See, I always thought it was a system that let you create a character that was BETTER equipped/geared through purchase than you'd be able to make just from sticking to in-game content.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'm not sure there is a generally accepted definition. Personally, I believe anything that lets you create a well-geared character without playing the game is Pay to Win. In games where PvP is the principle activity, a more narrow definition of "win" might hold sway. But in CoH....lol PvP.
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By that definition the whole incarnate system is 'pay-to-win', but I don't know if subscribe-to-win is a thing really.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
How funny is this... I wanted Enhancement Catalyst, and what do I get? A VERY big black dog with glowing red eyes "while it does help me to complete tf's faster" does nothing for making my orange ATO'S become purple ATO'S!!
And while i'm on the subject... I could have sworn I heard that these purple ATO'S will be able to be emailed to other toons on your account only, if and when you UN-slot them...
It's better to save the Mystery, than surrender to the secret...
$90 Dollars worth of points and no wolf D:
Oh well. Got lots of other stuff though, which is neat.
I want the dog, though. >:C
I'm not spending any more for awhile, I already feel dumb for that much.
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Really?
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Originally Posted by Surging_Starfall
you lose by augmenting, because you no longer have access to the set for all levels
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Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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With a definition this loose the WHOLE GAME is pay-to-win. It's meaningless.
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Originally Posted by Oliin
See, I always thought it was a system that let you create a character that was BETTER equipped/geared through purchase than you'd be able to make just from sticking to in-game content.
By that definition the whole incarnate system is 'pay-to-win', but I don't know if subscribe-to-win is a thing really. |
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Selling ATOs on the market does not drive inflation. Pouring extra inf into the game by letting people buy it outright does.
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Originally Posted by GlassGoblin
And how close does that tread to RMT, anyway? Buying a Super Pack is buying a chance at trading real money for Influence. Why not cut out the middle step and let me pay directly for Influence?
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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Well I thought enhancements that matched your level such as store bought ones would adjust when you get exemplared, based on some talk else where, but recently I read that isn't the case and saw a link to wiki explaining how it really works. |
Originally Posted by Wavicle
Really?
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Now I'm not really sure, but if it doesn't work like that in the first place, then it isn't a loss and you lose nothing.
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There is no issuing authority for Inf in the game; it's always been created out of thin air by in-game actions: drops, missions, defeating enemies, etc. The only meaningful difference is that it can now be generated by out-of-game actions, i.e., spending real money to buy Super Packs and/or Windfalls to create the "drops" to sell on the Market. The only difference between this and letting me buy Inf a billion at a time is one of scale.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Selling ATOs on the market does not drive inflation. Pouring extra inf into the game by letting people buy it outright does.
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As the joke goes, "We've settled what you are. Now we're just haggling over price."
@Glass Goblin - Writer, brainstormer, storyteller, hero
Though nothing will drive them away
We can beat them, just for one day
We can be heroes, just for one day
Quote:
Maybe I am not understanding what you're trying to say but if I am understanding correctly I'll try to explain.|
Originally Posted by Surging_Starfall
Well I thought enhancements that matched your level such as store bought ones would adjust when you get exemplared, based on some talk else where, but recently I read that isn't the case and saw a link to wiki explaining how it really works.
Now I'm not really sure, but if it doesn't work like that in the first place, then it isn't a loss and you lose nothing. |
Epic IO sets (this includes ATIO sets that have been "catalized" into epics) as well as PVP IO sets will always grant their set bonuses no matter what level you exemp to. I've tested this myself to be sure.
Two reasons, however, to not "catalize" your ATIO sets...
1) If you catalize then only lvl 50's can use em... which means you cant send em to a new alt of the proper AT to use from lvl 1 on. You could only swap it between lvl 50s of the same AT.
2) If you already have 5 epic sets in your build you may end up with overlapping set bonuses thus going beyond the "rule of 5" limit and "wasting" set bonuses (a biggie would be the 10% recharge bonus). If you already have 5 epic sets you can avoid "catalizing" the ATIO set and get it's not inconsiderable 8.75% recharge bonus on top of the x5 10% recharge bonuses you're getting from 5 epic sets.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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No.|
Originally Posted by GlassGoblin
There is no issuing authority for Inf in the game; it's always been created out of thin air by in-game actions: drops, missions, defeating enemies, etc. The only meaningful difference is that it can now be generated by out-of-game actions, i.e., spending real money to buy Super Packs and/or Windfalls to create the "drops" to sell on the Market. The only difference between this and letting me buy Inf a billion at a time is one of scale.
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Inf is, as you say, put into the economy by enemy defeats, mission bonuses and selling drops to stores. Trading in Wentworth's, on the other hand, actually reduces the total amount of inf out there.
Letting you buy a billion inf on the Paragon Market would add a billion brand new inf to the economy.
Selling an ATO on Wentworths for a billion inf moves 900 million pre-existing inf from one player to another, and removes a hundred million inf from the economy in Wents fees.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
Random should be for F2P players. Monthly subscribers should get something a bit less random. Maybe get a better chance of getting ATO more based on what toon your on. Or what is on your account.
I purchased 36 and I got ATO for a bunch of arch types except the ones I have. Tons of revives ( self and other ) and Tons of inspirations. I also got about 700 merits out of 36 rolls. I started with 75 on the toon. So I didn't get the tons of merits others are posting about.
Further why can't the Devs explain what the heck this stuff is ?? Some of us don't have the time to go on beta to test stuff out just to know how it will work going live. Even players who did seemed to have screwed stuff up trying to slot some of this stuff.
It just is so annoying that this company is just too lazy to explain clearly what these things do.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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Pretty sure that the Rule of 5 renders ANY bonus beyond the fifth irrelevant, regardless of whether it's the same bonus value or a different value, resulting in only the five highest bonuses counting toward a power or attribute. So a sixth +10% recharge reduction and a +8.75% recharge reduction would both be equally extraneous if you already had five +10% accumulated.
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
2) If you already have 5 epic sets in your build you may end up with overlapping set bonuses thus going beyond the "rule of 5" limit and "wasting" set bonuses (a biggie would be the 10% recharge bonus). If you already have 5 epic sets you can avoid "catalizing" the ATIO set and get it's not inconsiderable 8.75% recharge bonus on top of the x5 10% recharge bonuses you're getting from 5 epic sets.
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Yes.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
No.
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Look, it's an idle philosophical point on a hypothetical change to the workings of a pseudo-economy which isn't actually reflected by any real world situation, and which is easier to manipulate than a sleazy politician with a fondness for goats. The Inf sinks of market fees are trivial when compared to the market players who can score a billion Inf in a night while still doing other stuff. The Inf still rains down out of thin air all over the world, only sometimes the clouds are made of in-game effort, and sometimes they're made out of real money. As long as that money is paid to the people who own the IP, everything is A-OK.
At the end of the day only two currencies matter: the fun the players are having, and the cash the players send to NC Soft. The rest is window dressing.
@Glass Goblin - Writer, brainstormer, storyteller, hero
Though nothing will drive them away
We can beat them, just for one day
We can be heroes, just for one day
Quote:
There was a day when we weren't allowed to know how anything in the game worked, where the real numbers and mechanics were hidden from us. Now the game's complicated enough that having the actual numbers isn't enough to tell you how to play most effectively.|
Originally Posted by plainguy
It just is so annoying that this company is just too lazy to explain clearly what these things do.
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I don't think they are "too lazy to explain." The systems themselves have simply become too complex to explain without requiring advanced coursework. Heck, on a regular basis the devs themselves have to go look at the code to figure out how things are supposed to work.
@Glass Goblin - Writer, brainstormer, storyteller, hero
Though nothing will drive them away
We can beat them, just for one day
We can be heroes, just for one day
Quote:
The Rule of Five is enforced based on what the set bonus is called in its game definition. That is how you can have five +7.5% recharge set bonuses on top of five Luck of the Gambler Def/+7.5% Rech IOs operate simultaneously. They are called different things.|
Originally Posted by Kurrent
Pretty sure that the Rule of 5 renders ANY bonus beyond the fifth irrelevant, regardless of whether it's the same bonus value or a different value, resulting in only the five highest bonuses counting toward a power or attribute. So a sixth +10% recharge reduction and a +8.75% recharge reduction would both be equally extraneous if you already had five +10% accumulated.
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In general, two bonuses with two different values obviously are defined as two different powers, and thus will have two different names. Unless the devs go way out of their way to link them somehow, they will fall under different pigeonholes under the Rule of Five. Basically, you're safe if the bonus is literally different. If its the same, its usually, but not always, the same - LotG is a notable exception.
So there's no confusion, the Rule of Five is not enforced on *type* of bonus, but on the specific bonus itself. You can have five +7.5% recharge and five +10% recharge if you can somehow fit that into a build, because you are allowed five of each bonus by name.
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Maybe I didn't word it right but that is essentially what I was trying to say.|
Originally Posted by Kurrent
Pretty sure that the Rule of 5 renders ANY bonus beyond the fifth irrelevant, regardless of whether it's the same bonus value or a different value, resulting in only the five highest bonuses counting toward a power or attribute. So a sixth +10% recharge reduction and a +8.75% recharge reduction would both be equally extraneous if you already had five +10% accumulated.
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The +10% recharge bonus from an epic ATIO set is the same as the 10% recharge bonus of typical epic IO sets. So it is not possible to get a 6th 10% recharge bonus by using an epic ATIO set when you're already using 5 epic sets that provide 10% recharge bonuses.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Deeper diving into the mechanics has revealed it's not the uniqueness of the name, but the actual Boost-Power that is called. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The Rule of Five is enforced based on what the set bonus is called in its game definition.
So there's no confusion, the Rule of Five is not enforced on *type* of bonus, but on the specific bonus itself. You can have five +7.5% recharge and five +10% recharge if you can somehow fit that into a build, because you are allowed five of each bonus by name. |
So, you can have two different Boost-Powers with the same exact effect, and regardless of how they're named in 'combat attributes' you can have up to 5 of each.
Or you can have one particular Boost-Power that shows in in 'real numbers' with 8 different names, but, will cap at being called the fifth time.
But, for all intents and purposes, so far, all Boost-Powers have unique names that are consistently used in 'real numbers', so, one can confidently count the number of times one sees that unique name to determine when the cap of 5 has been hit.
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I've got to wonder if there's an intention to add more costume pieces to the Super Packs in future. If it was something along the lines of a good chance to get one costume piece you didn't already own per pack, would that be more or less interesting than what we've currently got?
@Nitram_Tadur
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I'm not sure how you figure that. If the 'gear' you buy through the in-game store is 'better' than the kind you can get in-game and that's the only way to get said gear .... you have a 'pay to win' situation.
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
With a definition this loose the WHOLE GAME is pay-to-win. It's meaningless.
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MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
So, there's a lot of hatred here.
Until these packs came out, I hadn't spent a single dollar on the store.
After the packs came out I dropped about $65.
I'm neither ashamed (as many of you will likely think I should be) or upset with my decision.
I enjoy the randomness, I enjoy opening each card. I think the biggest problem with the packs is the button at the bottom that reveals all. It spoils the intensity and enjoyment of crakcking open the pack.
I happened to get the wolf inside about 80 packs, I feel lucky, that luck makes me feel good, and makes it easy for me to justify my purchase. I sitll play games like Magic because I enjoy that (though the 1 in 12 very rare cards have spoiled alot of that for me) as I prefer the not gaurenteed but likely method used in these packs for that definition.
I do, however, agree that all of the items should be on the store though as I at least respect the viewpoint that some people that don't want to gamble. Make it slightly statistically better to gamble (as statistics and gambling don't agree with each other very well). As it's money regardless, I don't think there's a good reason not to sell the items from the packs at a much worse rate (as packs come with abunch of largely useless fluff with them).
However, the constant condemnation of this method for delivering content that I've witnessed in this thread seems pointless. Instead of asking for a method to obtains what you want through other means (some of you kept it to that and I thank you for it) you want to ruin the enjoyment I get by removing the item through petitions.
Just my $.02;
_WAter_
***Liberty***
Panther's Grace:50 Claws/SR
Hena Muri:39 Claws/Regen
Child of Grace:32 WS
Shankilahre:32 DM/WP
Panther's Fury:33 Claws/SR
Anubia:50 DB/WP
***Guardian***
Panther's Ghost:50 Night Widow
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People have, since the packs were announced at the player summit. That has not worked. I'd be completely satisfied if the costume bundle and vanity pet were to be made available separately.|
Originally Posted by WAterTriAd
Instead of asking for a method to obtains what you want through other means
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That, according to the red names, isn't on the table. I doubt there will ever be a chance to get the costume set in another way. At best, they'll likely discount the pack price via a sale.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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That's what I meant by "name." I think I specifically referred to it as the internal name of the power that grants the bonus, but going any farther seemed to be more detail than necessary.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Deeper diving into the mechanics has revealed it's not the uniqueness of the name, but the actual Boost-Power that is called.
So, you can have two different Boost-Powers with the same exact effect, and regardless of how they're named in 'combat attributes' you can have up to 5 of each. Or you can have one particular Boost-Power that shows in in 'real numbers' with 8 different names, but, will cap at being called the fifth time. But, for all intents and purposes, so far, all Boost-Powers have unique names that are consistently used in 'real numbers', so, one can confidently count the number of times one sees that unique name to determine when the cap of 5 has been hit. |
Technically speaking the rule of five is a designer-imposed constraint on the number of times a set bonus power is allowed to stack. The same tech that only allows one stack of Bruising only allows five stacks of Set_Bonus.Set_Bonus.Luck_of_the_Gambler, because its NumAllowed is 5, and that prevents you from getting the benefit of a sixth. That's a different power than the power which grants the tier 5 recharge set bonus of +7.5% which is Set_Bonus.Set_Bonus.Improved_Recharge_Time_5. That also has a NumAllowed of 5, preventing a player from getting the benefit of more than five copies of that power.
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*ignore, double post, sorry*