Super Packs Update 2/13/2012 - The Numbers


Agent White

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
No, the defense is "its not illegal, so people claiming its illegal are wrong."
...Who claimed it illegal?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orynn View Post
...Who claimed it illegal?
*twirls mustache*

Ark probably is still sore at me for one of my posts about how I see this gambling mechanic as a very gaping opening in CoX's armor. I just happen to know about a certain "group of concerned" that is very real and I don't want to see one of my most beloved games get in any trouble.

That's all.

I'm the kind of rabbit that tries to avoid potential disasters like that and if it rubs folks the wrong way...

Tough.

Minors+onlinegambling=trouble.... trouble=do not want.


Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer View Post
*twirls mustache*

Ark probably is still sore at me for one of my posts about how I see this gambling mechanic as a very gaping opening in CoX's armor. I just happen to know about a certain "group of concerned" that is very real and I don't want to see one of my most beloved games get in any trouble.

That's all.

I'm the kind of rabbit that tries to avoid potential disasters like that and if it rubs folks the wrong way...

Tough.

Minors+onlinegambling=trouble.... trouble=do not want.
Several people claimed it was literally illegal. You claiming it was problematic isn't especially noteworthy, except in claiming to work for the gaming industry and then claiming that gambling laws were just "pseudo-rules."


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orynn View Post
Shift to today where we have this new mechanic, The Market, which allows folks who have more disposable income to throw at it than others to be more successful, if you will since you don't like the term win, and I see a highest bidder situation.
Can you explain what purchases I can make on the market that allow me to be more succesful in playing the game? I'd really like to know.


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Posted

Yep! Still sore!


Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
I fully expect them to discount the packs first, after 6 months. Even then the discount will be 20% off. I seriously don't think they will ever have the costume parts or pet outside of these packs, no matter how much players disagree with that choice.

Why? It is because of the players who "held their nose" and bought the packs anyway to get the costume parts.
Not because of this player. To me the costume set was a great part of the Super Packs, but it was only that, a part of them. I feel I got a lot of other great stuff for my points in those packs. In fact, I bought a second set of 24 on each of my accounts after I had unlocked the full costume set on both accounts in each of the first sets of 24 I had bought.

If the Devs annouced tomorrow that they decided to sell the costume set separately starting next week, I would not at all begrudge them. As long as it didn't mean they were discontinuing the practice of Super Packs for those of us who like them.


(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orynn View Post
A couple things that deserve clarification:

#1. Gamble -
To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.
To play a game of chance for stakes.
To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit.

So, let's cut the crap once and for all. Super Packs are gambling. As is going to a casino. It's just a different type of gamble.
Show me a casino where I am guaranteed to walk out with as much money as I walked in with, or an equal value of merchandise, and I will show you a casino where I will actually "gamble."

Vegas, Atlantic City, and all the various other casinos that have cropped up across the country hold no appeal for me because if I am going to spend my money on something, I want to spend it on something I have to show for it. If I'm going to spend it on an experience - a movie, a sporting event, a concert - I at least want to come away with a pleasant memory of the experience. I don't care how long a winning streak I have at a blackjack table, if I walk away having lost $100, then it wasn't a pleasant experience.

That to me is the difference between actual gambling - the kind that can ruin peoples' lives - and the hyperbole being thrown around in here with reference to Super Packs, or trading cards, or heck, those little football helmets they used to sell in bubblegum machines. By the way, do they still sell those? *looks through his desk draw for spare quarters.*


(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon

 

Posted

So if we're going to call the super packs gambling then all collectable card games are gambling for the same reason..

as mousedroid said it's not really gambling since you're
a) using Paragon Points, which are a fictional currency that you can choose to spend real money on but it's not required
and
b) you're getting something of at least a minor increase value out of it.. gambling would have the possibility of a loss which nothing coming out of the packs are.. some people perceive them as useless but they are all usable..


Server -=Victory=-


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by mousedroid View Post
Not because of this player. To me the costume set was a great part of the Super Packs, but it was only that, a part of them. I feel I got a lot of other great stuff for my points in those packs. In fact, I bought a second set of 24 on each of my accounts after I had unlocked the full costume set on both accounts in each of the first sets of 24 I had bought.

If the Devs annouced tomorrow that they decided to sell the costume set separately starting next week, I would not at all begrudge them. As long as it didn't mean they were discontinuing the practice of Super Packs for those of us who like them.
I'm fine with them leaving the packs in the market if there was a way to directly buy the costume and vanity pet.




Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
I'm fine with them leaving the packs in the market if there was a way to directly buy the costume and vanity pet.
That would take alot of steam out of my argument.


Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer View Post
That would take alot of steam out of my argument.
The problem is that your argument is based on a leap of logic to begin with.
Believing that buying these Super Packs is a form of gambling does not make it so.

I understand how you may not like how these Super Packs work but you've defended your dislike of them with a false equivalency.
Come up with a -valid- reason why these things are bad and I might be more willing to consider your position.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orynn View Post
...Who claimed it illegal?
I told you they were going to change things and wind you up about a separate topic and you still fell for it....tisk tisk.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
The problem is that your argument is based on a leap of logic to begin with.
Believing that buying these Super Packs is a form of gambling does not make it so.

I understand how you may not like how these Super Packs work but you've defended your dislike of them with a false equivalency.
Come up with a -valid- reason why these things are bad and I might be more willing to consider your position.
Or, more succinctly, if someone says "Super Packs are gambling!" I say "...so what?"

They have at least some elements in common with gambling. It's not a great analogy, really. But even if we totally agree that Super Packs are literally gambling in every way (and I don't agree with that at all, but just for the sake of discussion here), that only means Super Packs are gambling. The people arguing "That's gambling!" seem to think that also implies it's bad, or immoral, or something? I don't know, the people saying it seem to think that the conclusion after "It's gambling!" follows obviously, but they never say what that conclusion is. It certainly can't be "It's illegal!" because these do not at all meet the legal definition of gambling; if it did, minors wouldn't be able to purchase M:TG cards. It might be "It's immoral/unethical!" but I don't want to put words in somebody else's mouth, so could someone please explain: if it's gambling (in some generic, but non-legal sense), why does that matter? Is it good or bad, and why? If this is bad gambling, are physical CCGs OK, and if this is bad but CCGs are fine, why the difference?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeling View Post
Or, more succinctly, if someone says "Super Packs are gambling!" I say "...so what?"
A whole lot of this...

Only thing here is this and how it has been discussed is much more layered as you touched on in your post.

Not everyone that has taken the literal dictionary definition of the word and said yes, went ANY further than that. What has happened and what you touched on is "other" people take that and run with it to "other" separate issues down the line like legal definitions or frankly anything beyond the literal dictionary definition as we saw up thread.

I consider doing that a form of intellectual dishonesty. It would be a TOTALLY different story if that person goes "ANY" further in their position saying it is yes AND its bad or illegal or morally repulsive etc... That to me would be TOTALLY different and fair game for the attacks based on those additional things. However, to just out of the blue attach that to a statement that does not say that and then argue that new point is what happens here way too often. People should stop doing that.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
Before tomorrow's launch of the first Super Pack: Heroes and Villains, I wanted to share the breakdown of the odds of getting each item in the packs. This should be considered final and official.
I picked up 15 packs with 3 reward tokens, here are the results:

Pack #1 (C) Experienced x1 - (C) Prestige Booster x1 - (U) Revival x2 - (R) Experienced x3 - (VR) Reward Merits x100

Pack #2 (C) Tactical Imbuement x1 - (C) Revival x1 - (U) Windfall x1 - (R) Enhancement Unslotter x3 - (R) XP Booster x2

Pack #3 (C) Tactical Imbuement x1 - (C) Keen Insight Imbuement x1 - (U) Enhancement Unslotter x2 - (R) XP Booster x2 - (VR) Elemental Order Backpack x1

Pack #4 (C) Elemental Order Belt x1 - (C) Enhancement Booster x2 - (C) Revival x1 - (R) Reward Merits x75 - (VR) Scrapper's Strike x1

Pack #5 (C) Elemental Order Sleeves x1 - (C) Reward Merits x25 - (U) Elemental Order Facemask x1 - (R) Reward Merits x75 - (VR) Stalker's Guile x1

Pack #6 (C) Reward Merits x25 - (C) Enhancement Unslotter x1 - (C) Revival x1 - (R) XP Booster x2 - (VR) Scrapper's Strike x1

Pack #7 (C) Restore x1 - (C) Enhancement Unslotter x1 - (C) Revival x1 - (U) Restore x2 - (VR) Brute's Fury x1

Pack #8 (C) Invigorate x1 - (C) Prestige Booster x1 - (U) Enhancement Unslotter x2 - (R) Enhancement Booster x8 - (R) Experienced x3

Pack #9 (C) Precise x1 - (C) Enhancement Unslotter x1 - (U) Enhancement Unslotter x2 - (R) Experienced x3 - (VR) Elemental Order Shard Cannon x1

Pack #10 (C) Reward Merits x25 - (C) Restore x1 - (U) Windfall x1 - (R) Reward Merits x75 - (VR) Scrapper's Strike x1

Pack #11 (C) Guarding Imbuement x1 - (C) Revival x1 - (U) Elemental Order Chest x1 - (U) Elemental Order Gloves x1 - (VR) Reward Merits x100

Pack #12 (C) Protecting Imbuement x1 - (C) Insight Imbuement x1 - (C) Guarded x1 - (R) Reward Merits x75 - (VR) Enhancement Catalyst x1

Pack #13 (C) Experienced x1 - (C) Protected x1 - (C) Invigorate x1 - (R) Elemental Order Pants x1 - (VR) Elemental Order Shoulders x1

Pack #14 (C) Reward Merits x25 - (C) Rejuvenate x1 - (U) Enhancement Booster x5 - (R) Elemental Order Helmet x1 - (VR) Reward Merits x100

Pack #15 (C) Reward Merits x25 - (C) Health Imbuement x1 - (U) Revival x2 - (R) XP Booster x2 - (VR) Blaster's Wrath x1

I have all the costume parts but 1, the Elemental Order Boots. This is a rare "card". I have an 85% chance to NOT get the Boots with any pack with a rare in it. Some packs have no rare cards (very rare instead), though a few have 2. This means that while I might have a 1 in 10 chance of getting the part, it might also mean I get the boots after 1, 10, or even 100 packs. I don't think that is acceptable.

There should be an upper limit of packs needed to get the account items. If a player exceeds that number, the remaining account item(s) should be awarded to the account. I would think that would be a nice goodwill gesture on the company's part. At that point the packs will still be an incentive item to get players to try the consumables, but would put an upper point limit for the account items.

I don't really care if it is "statistically unlikely" that this happened. The fact is that it DID happen. The truth of the matter is that the developers can't say how many packs a player has to get in order to collect all the costume parts. I doubt that they can say how many accounts got a complete set in the following pack amounts:
  • 0-10 packs
  • 10-15 packs
  • 15-20 packs
  • 20-25 packs
  • 25-30 packs
  • 30+ packs
At this point, they should be open with players as to how to get the costume items and pet without buying the packs. They've got the players that will buy the packs over the last 3-4 months, now they can focus on those players that just want nothing to do with them.

I will point out that I've used:
  • Converted all the Reward Merits into Enhancement Converters.
  • 4/6 ATOs
  • 0/1 Catalyst (haven't collected enough to bother catalyzing anything)
  • About 4 of the self-rezzes
  • ZERO Ally-rezzes
  • ZERO Unslotters
  • ZERO Experienced powers
  • ZERO Enhancement Boosters
  • ZERO Inspirations
  • ZERO Windfalls
Overall I'm glad I didn't spend one cent on these packs.




Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

Posted

Would be nice to be able to use boosters on rare recipies bought thru Shop. Was a waste of good points to get and have them not treated the same way as ones bought/earned thru markets.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by baddad11 View Post
Would be nice to be able to use boosters on rare recipies bought thru Shop. Was a waste of good points to get and have them not treated the same way as ones bought/earned thru markets.
No.

Market enhancements, unlike the ones bought through the auctionhouse/earned in game, level with you. If they were to be made boostable you'd have even more people crying "pay2win" (although they continue to fail to realize that there is nothing to win.)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
I picked up 15 packs with 3 reward tokens, here are the results:

Pack #1 (C) Experienced x1 - (C) Prestige Booster x1 - (U) Revival x2 - (R) Experienced x3 - (VR) Reward Merits x100

Pack #2 (C) Tactical Imbuement x1 - (C) Revival x1 - (U) Windfall x1 - (R) Enhancement Unslotter x3 - (R) XP Booster x2

Pack #3 (C) Tactical Imbuement x1 - (C) Keen Insight Imbuement x1 - (U) Enhancement Unslotter x2 - (R) XP Booster x2 - (VR) Elemental Order Backpack x1

Pack #4 (C) Elemental Order Belt x1 - (C) Enhancement Booster x2 - (C) Revival x1 - (R) Reward Merits x75 - (VR) Scrapper's Strike x1

Pack #5 (C) Elemental Order Sleeves x1 - (C) Reward Merits x25 - (U) Elemental Order Facemask x1 - (R) Reward Merits x75 - (VR) Stalker's Guile x1

Pack #6 (C) Reward Merits x25 - (C) Enhancement Unslotter x1 - (C) Revival x1 - (R) XP Booster x2 - (VR) Scrapper's Strike x1

Pack #7 (C) Restore x1 - (C) Enhancement Unslotter x1 - (C) Revival x1 - (U) Restore x2 - (VR) Brute's Fury x1

Pack #8 (C) Invigorate x1 - (C) Prestige Booster x1 - (U) Enhancement Unslotter x2 - (R) Enhancement Booster x8 - (R) Experienced x3

Pack #9 (C) Precise x1 - (C) Enhancement Unslotter x1 - (U) Enhancement Unslotter x2 - (R) Experienced x3 - (VR) Elemental Order Shard Cannon x1

Pack #10 (C) Reward Merits x25 - (C) Restore x1 - (U) Windfall x1 - (R) Reward Merits x75 - (VR) Scrapper's Strike x1

Pack #11 (C) Guarding Imbuement x1 - (C) Revival x1 - (U) Elemental Order Chest x1 - (U) Elemental Order Gloves x1 - (VR) Reward Merits x100

Pack #12 (C) Protecting Imbuement x1 - (C) Insight Imbuement x1 - (C) Guarded x1 - (R) Reward Merits x75 - (VR) Enhancement Catalyst x1

Pack #13 (C) Experienced x1 - (C) Protected x1 - (C) Invigorate x1 - (R) Elemental Order Pants x1 - (VR) Elemental Order Shoulders x1

Pack #14 (C) Reward Merits x25 - (C) Rejuvenate x1 - (U) Enhancement Booster x5 - (R) Elemental Order Helmet x1 - (VR) Reward Merits x100

Pack #15 (C) Reward Merits x25 - (C) Health Imbuement x1 - (U) Revival x2 - (R) XP Booster x2 - (VR) Blaster's Wrath x1

I have all the costume parts but 1, the Elemental Order Boots. This is a rare "card". I have an 85% chance to NOT get the Boots with any pack with a rare in it. Some packs have no rare cards (very rare instead), though a few have 2. This means that while I might have a 1 in 10 chance of getting the part, it might also mean I get the boots after 1, 10, or even 100 packs. I don't think that is acceptable.

There should be an upper limit of packs needed to get the account items. If a player exceeds that number, the remaining account item(s) should be awarded to the account. I would think that would be a nice goodwill gesture on the company's part. At that point the packs will still be an incentive item to get players to try the consumables, but would put an upper point limit for the account items.

I don't really care if it is "statistically unlikely" that this happened. The fact is that it DID happen. The truth of the matter is that the developers can't say how many packs a player has to get in order to collect all the costume parts. I doubt that they can say how many accounts got a complete set in the following pack amounts:
  • 0-10 packs
  • 10-15 packs
  • 15-20 packs
  • 20-25 packs
  • 25-30 packs
  • 30+ packs
At this point, they should be open with players as to how to get the costume items and pet without buying the packs. They've got the players that will buy the packs over the last 3-4 months, now they can focus on those players that just want nothing to do with them.

I will point out that I've used:
  • Converted all the Reward Merits into Enhancement Converters.
  • 4/6 ATOs
  • 0/1 Catalyst (haven't collected enough to bother catalyzing anything)
  • About 4 of the self-rezzes
  • ZERO Ally-rezzes
  • ZERO Unslotters
  • ZERO Experienced powers
  • ZERO Enhancement Boosters
  • ZERO Inspirations
  • ZERO Windfalls
Overall I'm glad I didn't spend one cent on these packs.
You used zero experienced and zero windfalls? So do you not play any characters below 50? Because that experienced power can be used over and over and stacks with the veteran experience one.

Windfalls is great for any level but mainly 50's since more purple recipes can drop. Also good for threads and shards incarnate stuff.


 

Posted

I overall like the packs, but the drop chance on the Black Wolf is just frickin' insanity. 0.3%? Seriously? Even now with me having all the elemental order costume parts, the odds of me ever getting that black wolf is pretty much still nil, isn't it?


 

Posted

I'd like to express my distaste for this type of sales item. I got suckered in with the pseudo-gambling on the first set, but won't again. Stick with selling the items themselves, don't intersperse them with random unwanted crap.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoyLeyenda View Post
I'd like to express my distaste for this type of sales item. I got suckered in with the pseudo-gambling on the first set, but won't again. Stick with selling the items themselves, don't intersperse them with random unwanted crap.
Good news! It doesn't matter anymore.


 

Posted

Based on this announcement, we as players, fans and consumers should make a responsible attempt to convince NCsoft to reverse its decision in this matter.

Therefore, we are mounting a campaign of letter-writing to make a personal appeal to Mr. Taek Jin Kim, CEO of NCsoft, to reconsider the decision to shut down Paragon Studioes, and instead keep this excellent Management and Development Team intact and keep City of Heroes alive.

We invite all players who have enjoyed this game to join us in this effort. Many players have already drafted petitions, and we urge all players to support these efforts and sign them, and encourage anyone who has ever played the game to do so as well.

Most important, we want to get physical letters onto Mr. Kim's desk. E-mails make a forceful statement, but the impact of receiving 2,000 e-mails is not nearly as great as the impact of having 2,000 physical letters sitting on one's desk. Nothing impresses a CEO like a piece of paper with a name on it, because it is a tangible reminder that there is an actual paying customer behind it.

When you write to Mr. Kim, it is important to follow some simple but crucial guidelines:

1. Be polite. I cannot stress this enough. A letter which begins with criticism and outrage ends in the wastebasket. Hostility toward a shutdown only validates the decision to be rid of such customers. BE POLITE.

2. Being polite does NOT mean being deferential. As a customer, you are entitled to certain considerations, and it is not at all improper to request that your expectation of those considerations be met. Write as an equal, as one gamer to another, and make it clear that your devotion to the game represents your devotion to the NCsoft as a continuing customer. Threatening never to buy another NCsoft game is counter-productive, but asserting your continued commitment to subscribing to or purchasing items in-game from "City of Heroes" cannot hurt our case.

3. Be brief. One paragraph is all you will need. "One page: read, two pages: dead." Remember that you are writing to the CEO of a major corporation. It is not reasonable to assume he will have the time to read every letter through and through, but knowing that the first ten letters say the same thing as the next 990 will make an impact.

4. Put a Subject line before the text of your appeal. A single line that says something like "Please do not end my subscription to City of Heroes!" gets your point across and reminds him that you and the thousands of other letter writers are part of his profits.

5. Send letters to both the US and Korean offices of NCsoft. We can't know for sure where Mr. Kim will be at any given time, but knowing that he has stacks of mail waiting for him at either office is part of the message we want to send.

6. Send all letters via "Certified Mail/Addressee’s Signature Required/Return Receipt Requested". This takes a little more effort and costs a little more, but it is well worth it. According to US Federal postal laws, a letter so marked must be signed for by the address or their legal representative, which in the case of CEOs is usually their personal administrative assistants; usually it's not the receptionist or security guards. This is your best shot at getting your letters directly to where they will do the most good.

7.Don't stop at one letter! If you can mail a letter every day, that would be great! But try to send at least one every week. Keep the flood of letters going. They are expecting an initial surge of appeals. What we want to show them is an ongoing commitment to saving the game.

All letters should be addressed to Mr., Taek Jin Kim, CEO, at the two main offices of NCsoft:

In the United States:

Mr. Taek Jin Kim, Chief Executive Officer
NCsoft Corporation
1501 4th Avenue, Suite 2050
Seattle, WA 98101
UNITED STATES

In Korea:

Mr. Taek Jin Kim, Chief Executive Officer
NCsoft Corporation
157-37 Samsung-dong
Kangnamu-gu, Seoul 135-090
KOREA

These are the corporate offices. Writing to any other addresses will reach NCsoft facilities, but may not reach Mr. Kim in time, or at all.

Please get involved!

We already KNOW that the game will be GONE if we do NOTHING.

If we do SOMETHING, we may have a chance to save it!

Good luck to all of us, and start getting those letters out!

Sincerely,

DASHER


HELP SAVE THIS GAME!
If we can save this game, I promise I will never complain about Travel Power Suppression again! You have my word on it!
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