Smaller iTrials: Would you do them?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-26 20:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Too much stuff in this thread I'd want to quote but can't. But you can put me firmly on the side of those who think the Incarnate system makes us nothing more than 24 Star Trek Redshirts hurled against boring, non-cosmic scale foes who use dirty Bad GM tricks to win. Horrible, horrible system that is not convincing me in the slightest to stay as a VIP.
Now, to answer the OP, yes, yes and yes again. I would play them, I would bring others to play them and I'd probably enjoy them. Before Incarnates, aside from a few rare occurances, everything could be done in an eight man team and the content was balanced in favour of that. Eight is more than most other games but it is a good team size for everyone to feel that they're contributing and getting their own time in the spotlight. On a 24 man league, I just get lost.
As for foes, I don't buy that they should be lesser threats. At level 50, we've fought off a second Rikti invasion, beaten the snot out of the Freedom Phalanx, fought a mad, dimension eating god... no, don't give us overpowered morons like Maelstrom, give us a foe that's worth sending Incarnates against.
And as for co-op... please no! I am so tired of seeing that word now. It makes playing a villain pointless and is just a lazy excuse for not developing separate content. No more co-op please!
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Quote:
That's exactly what people told me when the Notes of the Well came out, and we've all seen how well that's worked. Don't try to insult people's intelligence like this before we actually see what Dark Astoria is, because I'm pretty sure it's not going to be the solo Mecca with which to shut up people who don't like raids.
|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
You're getting your solo path, you can stop complaining.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
I think one of the biggest issues with the Incarnate system right now is that it's young. We only have the Praetorians to fight off now, but I'm holding out some optimism that once we get the Coming Storm and Battalion into the mix, and as it expands, some of those complaints will go away. I do hope that the Battalion stuff has a similar set up, the 'entry' level trials, like Baf, Lam and Keyes, and going up to the more level shift required trials, like the others. At least then when the Praetorian threat has passed the new up and coming villains and heros can test their mettle against the most recent world destroying threat. We're in a transition phase, and hopefully the devs will learn from the Praetorian trials and get a healthy medium for the future trials. I would love some smaller style trials, especially if they're alignment specific. So Villains incarnates can be bad as we want to be, and Heroes can be more proactive in some smaller scale assaults. Granted, we may get some things like this in the Solo path, which I am really looking forward to. I wager that if the Solo path is good it will re-spark my interest in the trials. We really just have to wait, voice our opinions and hope for the best.
Quote:
I agree with you as I'd prefer to have my villains doing actual villainous content, BUT. Part of the problem is that blueside is much more popular than redside. Has been since Issue 8 (after the brief period during Issues 6 and 7 when people said "devs hate heroes" and seriously meant it). This means that any content developed exclusively for redside won't be played nearly as much and may even fall to the wayside entirely. From a developer's point of view, there's not a lot of motivation to develop content under those circumstances. And I agree, it sucks, but co-op really does bypass that in a convenient way, and to a certain degree it does make sense that heroes and villains would work together against a greater foe that seeks to destroy them all (think about Galactus, Onslaught, the Infinity Gauntlet).|
Originally Posted by Dante
And as for co-op... please no! I am so tired of seeing that word now. It makes playing a villain pointless and is just a lazy excuse for not developing separate content. No more co-op please!
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's exactly what people told me when the Notes of the Well came out, and we've all seen how well that's worked. Don't try to insult people's intelligence like this before we actually see what Dark Astoria is, because I'm pretty sure it's not going to be the solo Mecca with which to shut up people who don't like raids.
|
It will, however, be a solo path, and given that we already have a handful of solo options for acquiring threads 'n such, it's reasonable to assume that the solo path will be at least somewhat viable (otherwise there's no point). And as much as I should not say "they're making a solo path so shut up" before seeing what it's like, you shouldn't say "it's gonna suuuuuuuuck".
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Quote:
I bring it up because that's exactly what people said when Notices were first allowed to be made out of Shards. "See, now you can get all the way to T4 without ever joining a raid. Now stop complaining!" The trouble is that you can and you can't. Black Scorpion even said that this wasn't intended to be a "solo path" long after the fact, but it didn't stop people from trying to shut me up by saying it's theoretically plausible that I could reach T4 by myself. Yes, but how many years will that take?|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
I'm not sure why you're bringing up Notices (I assume? there are no Notes of the Well), but I've already stated that the solo path probably won't be superior or even equal to trials, so I'm not sure where you got this particular strawman from.
|
What I'm saying is "You got your solo path." is not a safe argument to make until we actually see this solo path first hand. Because if I had a penny for every time people in I19 Beta told me "You're so impatient! They're working on a solo option right now, you'll see!" I'd be rich beyond my years. The argument you're making has been made before and disproved before. Yes, it's more likely this time, but it's still not a sure thing.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
It will, however, be a solo path, and given that we already have a handful of solo options for acquiring threads 'n such, it's reasonable to assume that the solo path will be at least somewhat viable (otherwise there's no point). And as much as I should not say "they're making a solo path so shut up" before seeing what it's like, you shouldn't say "it's gonna suuuuuuuuck".
|
I'm not saying it sucks. I can't know. What I AM saying, however, is that this development team has done nothing - NOTHING - to give me even the slightest shred of fate that they have even the smallest of intentions of letting people who like to solo into the Incarnate system. Yes, they say they will, but history has proven that development statements can be read many different ways ("no more major changes to powers," anyone?), especially when they come from Marketing. It's also been proven that developer concessions to player pressure in terms of system design have been met with at best begrudging half-committal changes that address the issues in only the most immediately necessary way.
I don't know what Dark Astoria will be like, and I do hope it will be great. But experience tells me that when it comes to the Incarnate system, one of its design goals is to ram people into Raids and keep people on an endless treadmill. To give us a meaningful solo path would break those design goals, so I'm fully expecting there to be a catch of some sort to where Dark Astoria can be called a solo path, but ends up not being very useful as one. I'm not doom-saying. I'm saying I have no more faith left in Matt Miller's team when it comes to Incarnate content and Incarnate design.
I am, of course, open to being surprised. I'd enjoy nothing more than eating my words when it turns out Dark Astoria is exactly the kind of solo content that I can run by myself AND make meaningful progress over. That would be my ultimate dream in this regard. But I'm not going to expect this or plan for it until I see it with my own eyes, until I see myself sporting more than a Common Alpha, until have empirical evidence and first-hand experience to suggest this.
I have high hopes but very low expectations.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Pity they're one of the selling points of the VIP subscription, no? It's not like that's the only person who has a problem with them. Telling people to effectively shut up or put up is not constructive, and I hope the development team will prove they have recognised this basic fact of running a service with Dark Astoria. Because that WILL be the real test of mettle and pretty much the last shot.
As for "smaller Trials," I might be tempted to run them IF I had a reason to play my 50s to begin with, and that reason would be something I can do by myself. It'll be a cold day in hell before I will ever consider logging a character in with my only prospect being to sit on my hands and wait for a Something Team to form and pick me up, and over my dead body will I be forced to herd cats and form my own. I've only ever left this game once - back in September of 2004, and feeling an obligation to deal with teams on a constant basis is pretty much the reason for it. Smaller Trials are a great aside from solo play, which can indeed become a grind and a chore at times. As long as I don't have to run Trials, all Trials and nothing but Trials - i.e. as long as I have an alternative - then sure, I'll run them. The smaller the better. It's not a question of speed. It's a question of people's attitude. About five people and over is a crowd, and people in a crowd turn into clowns. Four and below (ideally, three and below) really isn't so much of a crowd, and it allows people to regard each other as individuals, rather than as a faceless mob. |
Yeah, ONE of the selling points. It isnt the only selling point, no one is made to do incarnate stuff, as a VIP. The question of if we should have the Trials is also a bit of a moot point, since clearly..we DO have them, and the devs are not going to just take them away, because some people dont like them. I also agree that they are rather grindy, but the devs are hardly saying put up or shut up, since we keep getting more and varied trials (which helps with the grind) and a 'proper' solo path soon.
So..you NEED a reason to play 50s? They ding 50, and suddenly all that fun you had 1-49..vanishes? Did you solo every toon 1-49 too? Crazy, making you WAIT for trial teams to form..they should somehow have a collection of Bots, that can fill in places? EVERYTHING you do in the game that is not solo, will take some amount of time to form.
And what a typical attitude..you dont want to wait to have one form, seemingly just for you, yet wont even deign to start one? It is a WONDER any trials ever get started at all!
Not sure where this magical obligation to team comes from. I know plenty of people who just like to solo, and they wont complain about not being able to do any team content. It is the reverse of the team player saying they will NEVER solo. And you know what those people do..? They simply dont solo! Saying something doesnt work just cause you personally do not enjoy it, is hardly helpful.
Five people is your magic team size? Then please, tell me HOW any of the stf/rsf/itf/lg TFs EVER get run? Do all these form with 8, including 3 fillers, then have them quit, just to confirm to your rule of 5? Ideal is 3 and below..leaving people the option of doing..well..Posi, Posi, and..Posi? Genius!
If a team of 8 is not personal enough for you..Do you join a team and ASK everyone on it their names, their location, what they enjoy, as soon as you can? If you dont, well, I really do not think you are being personal enough either. In case you have not noticed..this is an MMO. If you want personal while playing computer games, try a LAN with a few mates in the same room. Or, if that still isnt personal enough, maybe consider leaving the computer and going out to see people face to face..you know..in person?
To actually offer MY opinion..I think Trials with 8 or less will be a bad thing, seeing the death of the big leagues. And some people actually ENJOY these. If you can get the same rewards for doing an 8 man incarnate trial, as a 24, who is gonna bother forming the 24? (and yes Sam, please dont point out how I am now talking of the wait times, I already said they happen) Right now we have..solo, small teams, big teams (8 man tfs) and Leagues. 4 quite different and varied options. Giving us 8 man trials will damage leagues and be too similar to single team TFs.
By and large, I enjoy the trials we have now. I find them to have a reasonable mix of challenges that require and/or benefit from different archetypes and feel they are a good break from the strategy that more or less dominates the rest of the game, which is "don't die, stay together, and put down as much AoE DPS as possible." I think the pacing is pretty good as well, overall.
However I understand the problem that others have raised, which is that for a team of up to 24 incarnate-powered beings, we sure seem to encounter threats that would be way easier in normal content (f.ex Marauder in the Lambda vs. Marauder in one of the Maria Jenkins missions). There's also the fact that you have to come up with some... interesting gameplay mechanics ("gimmicks") to threaten a league of 24 incarnates.
Accordingly I like the idea of a smaller trial which as varied, nontypical objectives, but which is designed for fewer people so you need fewer "gimmicks," your strategies for dealing with it can vary based on the composition of your team (when you have 24 people one league isn't that different from another), and to improve coordination as I know some people have expressed frustration that one guy who doesn't listen can threaten the experience of 23 others. Personally I feel that that's part of playing an MMO and that an idiot-proof trial would be extremely boring...
Quote:
Funny, I thought we've only fought Ruladek and Lunaru which are merely aspects of that mad, dimension eating god.
|
Originally Posted by Dante
fought a mad, dimension eating god...
|
If having smaller League sized trials kills off larger league trials I'd call it a sign of what the majority of players want. I think having a few 8ish man Incarnate Trials thrown out there would be a good test to see what -most- people would prefer to run.
Let them hang out on the live servers for a few months and have the Dev's data mine that.
I'd honestly love more smaller 'task force-y' Incarnate Trials. A lot of my SG folks are kind of insular, and hardly do any (or not at all) of the Incarnate content, which makes it difficult for me to participate in them. I'm not going to ditch my friends that I've been playing with pretty much since I started. So I catch as catch can, and when time allows.
I'm really looking forward to the DA stuff and hope that's only the start. I KNOW I can get my SG involved in something that we could do on an SG night without involving a lot of other people. One or two guests into our group can be a fun way to meet someone new when the mood strikes us, but more than that and most of the group won't be interested.
For the record, most nights we're a group of about 5-7. We have other friends that pop in from time to time, and we wouldn't turn away a new member if they fit in with the group (and can put up with us 
). We don't actively recruit because we've all known each other a really long time, and want to keep our SG 'team sized' so nobody gets left out.
So yes. I would do them as often as I could convince the SG to do them, and PuG when I had the time. I frankly like smaller groups better anyway. 
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
Quote:
If 'forming the 24' is so much more of a bother, that's a problem that should be addressed rather than a reason to hinder 8-man iTrials.
|
Originally Posted by MisterD
To actually offer MY opinion..I think Trials with 8 or less will be a bad thing, seeing the death of the big leagues. And some people actually ENJOY these. If you can get the same rewards for doing an 8 man incarnate trial, as a 24, who is gonna bother forming the 24?
|
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I'm kind of hoping for an Incarnate level Taskforce shows up in the new Dark Astoria. Something like Apex/Tin Mage would be great.
As for smaller trials, yeah. I think there should be a variety, but then I also think the rewards shoul dbe adjusted accordingly. Whereas underground is long and has a higher upper limit and you get a guaranteed rare/very rare, I don't think it would be too unreasonable to have a smaller trial that was weight toward common/uncommon.
But then I'd also just like to have more trials in general in the 20-50 range, non-incarnate. I'm kind of sick of seeing so many requests for 'sewers, easy xp'. At least let there be variety.
Quote:
This is what I'm hoping will come from seeing the true solo path in i22 go live. That the Devs will finally get solid data on what is more popular, the iTrials or the solo/regular team content. Personally, I hope DA proves so good and astoundingly popular that it sends a very clear, neon lit sign surrounded by dancing girls to the Dev team that will make them reconsider the raid heavy endgame. |
Originally Posted by knightofrage
If having smaller League sized trials kills off larger league trials I'd call it a sign of what the majority of players want. I think having a few 8ish man Incarnate Trials thrown out there would be a good test to see what -most- people would prefer to run.
Let them hang out on the live servers for a few months and have the Dev's data mine that. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
I agree with you as I'd prefer to have my villains doing actual villainous content, BUT. Part of the problem is that blueside is much more popular than redside. Has been since Issue 8 (after the brief period during Issues 6 and 7 when people said "devs hate heroes" and seriously meant it). This means that any content developed exclusively for redside won't be played nearly as much and may even fall to the wayside entirely. From a developer's point of view, there's not a lot of motivation to develop content under those circumstances. And I agree, it sucks, but co-op really does bypass that in a convenient way, and to a certain degree it does make sense that heroes and villains would work together against a greater foe that seeks to destroy them all (think about Galactus, Onslaught, the Infinity Gauntlet).
|
I understand having to favour blueside as it is more popular but that's no excuse for having no content. I feel that the SSAs have handled it very well. They use similar art resources, identical maps and yet they tell a different side to the story, one where villians can actually be evil for a change. I am very grateful for this and would like to see the same ethos applied to further trials. Although not ideal, this is far better than just casting villains in with the heroes every single time.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Quote:
Yes, provided that smaller trials are just as difficult as current trials are (the definition of difficulty being failure rate), and maintain a lot of the beneficial changes that trials in general have introduced, such as rewarding generalist builds, an emphasis on situational awareness and reaction time, the 64 base tohit of enemies and timed objectives.|
Originally Posted by Rabid_M
I have a question for everyone, because I'm curious as to what the response would be:
If they made SMALLER (4-8 players) Incarnate Trials, much like the Halloween trial, would people run them more than the larger trials? Would they run them enough to make them worth making? Would you run them even if you're taking out "smaller" targets than the large trials take on? (A raid on a warehouse full of New and Improved Enriche, for example, with a non-Praetor AV at the end.) Why/why not? |
Small trials have lots of advantages - less time to launch, less lag and most of all it's much easier to stand out in a small team. In a group of 8, one heavily minmaxed, expertly played build can carry the entire group (trials are large enough that you tend to need a core of 'elite troops' to do the same job, and that makes things trickier). But let's not have what are just plain old TFs with bigger rewards.
Quote:
I'd be fine with a minimum of 8 and max of 10. I'd also be fine with an Incarnate mode for tfs. I'm glad the devs are finally shifting some focus away from massively large multi teams.
|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
Yes, provided that smaller trials are just as difficult as current trials are (the definition of difficulty being failure rate), and maintain a lot of the beneficial changes that trials in general have introduced, such as rewarding generalist builds, an emphasis on situational awareness and reaction time, the 64 base tohit of enemies and timed objectives.
Small trials have lots of advantages - less time to launch, less lag and most of all it's much easier to stand out in a small team. In a group of 8, one heavily minmaxed, expertly played build can carry the entire group (trials are large enough that you tend to need a core of 'elite troops' to do the same job, and that makes things trickier). But let's not have what are just plain old TFs with bigger rewards. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Wow, a character assassination post, and so adorably misguided. I haven't had one of these in a while. This should be fun.
Quote:
It's such a shame, too. And here I made such a compelling case for why Trials should be removed from the game while I laugh and laugh at all the people who liked them and... Wait, when DID I do that? I forget. Oh, I'm sure it's somewhere in my post. I'm sure you just neglected to quote it, but you totally can if you wanted to.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Yeah, ONE of the selling points. It isnt the only selling point, no one is made to do incarnate stuff, as a VIP. The question of if we should have the Trials is also a bit of a moot point, since clearly..we DO have them, and the devs are not going to just take them away, because some people dont like them.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MisterD
So..you NEED a reason to play 50s? They ding 50, and suddenly all that fun you had 1-49..vanishes? Did you solo every toon 1-49 too? Crazy, making you WAIT for trial teams to form..they should somehow have a collection of Bots, that can fill in places? EVERYTHING you do in the game that is not solo, will take some amount of time to form.
|
Well, except for those times when you do, when you have to hit your thumb with a hammer really, really hard at least 150 times before you're allowed to have your new stuff. You don't have to do it all in the same day, though. In fact, I don't recommend it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MisterD
And what a typical attitude..you dont want to wait to have one form, seemingly just for you, yet wont even deign to start one? It is a WONDER any trials ever get started at all!
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Not sure where this magical obligation to team comes from. I know plenty of people who just like to solo, and they wont complain about not being able to do any team content. It is the reverse of the team player saying they will NEVER solo. And you know what those people do..? They simply dont solo! Saying something doesnt work just cause you personally do not enjoy it, is hardly helpful.
|
See those clusterhug Raids you chastise me for not being able to run? I don't want them, either. I'd be perfectly happy to solo my way into Incarnate progression, but err... I can't. Because I can't make progress in that system worth a crap without 12 other people. I don't WANT to run Trials. I don't want to be able to run Trials, because I don't want to run them. I don't care if I were able to run Trials because I wouldn't run them. I don't want to run Trials, I want an alternative, and that doesn't exist. And I'm not sure Dark Astoria will be it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Five people is your magic team size? Then please, tell me HOW any of the stf/rsf/itf/lg TFs EVER get run? Do all these form with 8, including 3 fillers, then have them quit, just to confirm to your rule of 5? Ideal is 3 and below..leaving people the option of doing..well..Posi, Posi, and..Posi? Genius!
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MisterD
If a team of 8 is not personal enough for you..Do you join a team and ASK everyone on it their names, their location, what they enjoy, as soon as you can? If you dont, well, I really do not think you are being personal enough either. In case you have not noticed..this is an MMO. If you want personal while playing computer games, try a LAN with a few mates in the same room. Or, if that still isnt personal enough, maybe consider leaving the computer and going out to see people face to face..you know..in person?
|
What's really funny is I keep being told I'm anti-social for not wanting to team with 20 strangers I've never met before and for not wanting to befriend and bed every player I met... And then I'm being told if I want to be social, I shouldn't be teaming with 20 people I've never met and trying to befriend them. It's so hard to take irate posters seriously some times, but that just makes it all the more funny.
To actually offer MY opinion..I think Trials with 8 or less will be a bad thing, seeing the death of the big leagues. And some people actually ENJOY these. If you can get the same rewards for doing an 8 man incarnate trial, as a 24, who is gonna bother forming the 24? And Leagues. 4 quite different and varied options. Giving us 8 man trials will damage leagues and be too similar to single team TFs.[/QUOTE]
You are now talking about the wait times. I just wanted to point that out. Because if people see 24-man raids as intrinsically inferior to 8-man raids, then clearly there can't be that many who actually enjoy 24-man ones over 8-man ones. Of course, that's a pretty rotten thing of me to say, even though it's probably the truth, but after you having spent a whole post doing your best demonise me, I felt it's only fair that I return the favour. I mean, you worked so hard on putting together your straw man of me - and it is a very pretty straw man - that I just couldn't walk away and let all your effort go to waste. I mean, if I don't resemble that straw man, then you would end up looking like a right fool, so I might as well go ahead and make a fool of myself for your benefit.
---
Ah, I had almost forgotten what it's like to have a malicious poster go off on you and try to burn you to pieces. In a way, ignoring several people here on the forums has robbed me of that kind of adventure. I'm almost reconsidering that decision. ALMOST!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
If they were as easy and straightforward as the Halloween trial, then yes, I probably would. If they were as hard and twitchy/gimmicky as the current Incarnate trials, then probably not.
|
Originally Posted by Rabid_M
If they made SMALLER (4-8 players) Incarnate Trials, much like the Halloween trial, would people run them more than the larger trials?
|
99458: The Unbearable Being of Lightness
191775: How the Other Half Lives
My Webcomics
Quote:
I honestly couldn't give a rat's rear. If the smaller leagues damage the larger leagues that tells me that that larger league missions suck *** and need fine tuning to actually make them enjoyable.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
To actually offer MY opinion..I think Trials with 8 or less will be a bad thing, seeing the death of the big leagues. And some people actually ENJOY these. If you can get the same rewards for doing an 8 man incarnate trial, as a 24, who is gonna bother forming the 24? (and yes Sam, please dont point out how I am now talking of the wait times, I already said they happen) Right now we have..solo, small teams, big teams (8 man tfs) and Leagues. 4 quite different and varied options. Giving us 8 man trials will damage leagues and be too similar to single team TFs.
|
I await to see what happens when folks have dark astoria as an option versus the leagues.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
You have to be careful here. This is one of those cases where correlation and causation can't be clearly linked.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I honestly couldn't give a rat's rear. If the smaller leagues damage the larger leagues that tells me that that larger league missions suck *** and need fine tuning to actually make them enjoyable.
|
Let's say, for the sake of argument, there is a single, 24-man iTrial, and it's actually well-liked by people who don't have an intrinsic dislike of large league content. Then the devs add, say, two TFs that use Incarnate reward system. They're both reasonably liked. Now imagine you're not on one of the top population servers.
There's only so many people playing 50s and looking to run iContent. Those people can now get in one iTrial or two iTFs. It's just going to be easier to get into the TFs, because they're easier to start. The more people who do that, the fewer people will be available for the 24-man trial. This has a negative feedback effect - the longer it takes to form the trial, the more people will simply opt for the TFs.
To counter this, you need one of two things. One option is that the iTrial needs to be a lot more fun than the TFs. That's pretty subjective, and could be read to imply that the TFs shouldn't be made as fun as the iTrial - something we wouldn't want the devs to set forth as a design goal. The other option (and the more realistic one, IMO) is to make the iTrial have a noticeably better reward than the TF.
As an aside, and IMO, the devs have done a good job tweaking the rewards for the existing iTrials so that I do very much want to run the longer ones instead of just the BAF/Lambda. I consider the reward for the longer ones to be excellent. (Well, other than the bug for the 60 threads in the Undeground - fortunately leagues I'm on usually hit the criteria for "Regenerate This", but not always.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Enjoyment is relative to the person experiencing it.
I love the Incarnate Trials. Not so much a fan of the small Task Forces. I enjoy the large scale team effort required on Incarnate Trials versus the small 4 - 8 person teaming of Task Forces.
I think the STF/LRSF blows chunks. I'll only ever run them when there is an incentive for me to do it. *cough*WST*cough*
The Underground Trial is still my favorite and MoM is growing on me. I don't enjoy TPN -at- -all-. So my love for Incarnate Trials isn't a blanket OMFG I LUVS iT ALL!!1!
So, where my blather is going to: smaller Incarnate Trials will work for those who enjoy them.
End of story.
I think it is laughable to think that smaller Incarnate Trials (meaning for smaller teams) will be the death blow to larger Incarnate Trials. At the end of the day they're still freaking Incarnate Trials, they would just be a variance on size & length. *
*This is not a Freudian slip
Quote:
I think what would arise is that the current iTrials require more than 8 people to start it. So there wouldn't necessarily be much that you could do apart from make the requirements for all itrials smaller.
|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I honestly couldn't give a rat's rear. If the smaller leagues damage the larger leagues that tells me that that larger league missions suck *** and need fine tuning to actually make them enjoyable.
I await to see what happens when folks have dark astoria as an option versus the leagues. |
Quote:
Removing all minimum start reqs from everything ingame would be a start. |
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
I think what would arise is that the current iTrials require more than 8 people to start it. So there wouldn't necessarily be much that you could do apart from make the requirements for all itrials smaller.
|
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
Quote:
The price of Trials is commitment, realistically speaking. It's usually not safe to argue that if people are given the same reward/time/difficulty ratios and they pick the smaller team task, then that smaller team task were better. Raids are a self-sustaining system. You need interest and you need a certain critical mass for them to even work. For instance, I don't smoke, but all of my friends do, meaning it's next to impossible to sit on the non-smoking table if I'm with company. I sit on the smoking table not because I want to be there, but rather because I don't want to go to a restaurant alone.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
You have to be careful here. This is one of those cases where correlation and causation can't be clearly linked.
|
That said, if people do end up opting for smaller-team tasks even in the face of rewards significantly slated towards large team tasks, then that will point to a problem. And I don't think the solution to that problem will be to just go overboard on adding rewards to the large team tasks, nor to go overboard on killing the rewards on small team tasks. I can't say that this will happen, as I believe reward ratios matter more to most people than preferred playstyle, but it's not out of the question. What IS the question is what we do about it if it happens. That has to be on the minds of the developers as they work on Dark Astoria.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Some smaller iTrials would be nice if they were short and sweet and gave us some progression.
Maybe we have to go fight Shadowhunter to stop him calling the wild hunt. Or stop Black Swan from breaking open a portal from her dimension to our dimension to swamp us with her minions.
I agree that for the trial, it can't be too gimmicky, because when you have lots and lots of gimmicks you need lots to deal with them (like in TPN, you need people outside, inside and beating on Mael, basically 3 teams).
The sutter TF style gimmick, would be good (the exploding minions), or maybe something unique.
But the rewards would have to be less (3 astral merits a day, 1 emp merit every 2 days or something).
Another thing I would like to see is the ability to buy your judgement, interface, destiny, lore slots for alts. I love running iTrials, but going from doing them at +3 on 1 toon, to +0 on another isn't fun, I end up farming merits/threads on 1 toon to make another toon their alpha uncommon+notice of the well to make their +1 alpha.
And while iTrials are nice, it would be nice to see some other kind of level 50 trials/TFs going so more people can play them.
The game has met for the most part my ridiculously high expectations. The Incarnate stuff is Not Scottish and if its not Scottish...........
I play in teams, I play solo, I play TF's and all other trials except Incarnates because it is a poor attempt at a farming raid grind. I even at times have played a few CEBR ticket farms. When your final "content" is a perpetual drag and not fun - we all lose.
If you haven't read Silverlock, do so and perhaps you would have a different reply.
You're getting your solo path, you can stop complaining.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...