Smaller iTrials: Would you do them?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-26 20:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I'd love 4-8 size iTrials. Four is my favorite team size in the game, when the team gets bigger than that, everything just becomes a sea of effects. The Halloween trial was awesome because it was exactly four. No more, no less. And it was balanced for that.
One big annoyance with the 16+ man trials is the downtime. The trials themselves are pretty fun, usually, but the League forming and the recruiting part? That takes way too long. Which is where small teams rock. Gather four characters and go! Eight for a TF is also okay, but I really don't like when it gets bigger than that.
So I'm looking forward to the new DA. I want my pick-up-and-play Incarnate gameplay to happen, just like the rest of the game, where I can log in, run a mission and be happy that I made some progress. With iTrials, you can waste hours and not get anything useful out of it, which is a major flaw, introduced thanks to the random loot system and the massive team sizes you need.
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Everything you get on the Trials is useful - there's nothing you can't convert into something you need.
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Originally Posted by McNum
With iTrials, you can waste hours and not get anything useful out of it
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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But when there's only one AV, and 24 people like me fighting... honestly, I feel more like the army and this AV is now 24 times more badass than me. After all, it takes two dozen people to dogpile him and he's able to stand his ground. What I'm saying is the AV is trying to solo us at x8. |
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Do you not count fighting an invading army from another universe as saving the world???
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What I want is to be able to grab a handful of my buddies and just run the thing. 12-24 people makes that HARD, and we don't get to shoot the breeze the way you can on a TF. Even the Apex had us tossing stuff out. Quipping is a big part of superheroing, you know.
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And that's where I have a problem with the whole system - it doesn't give people more to do. Not by much - a handful of Trials you can finish in a day. It gives people more stuff to EARN while actually doing the same, now much smaller pool of content over and over again. That's why I feel this is a big misnomer. As far as I remember, people asked for more content, and Incarnate Powers are not content. Incarnate Trials are content, but they're nowhere near enough to provide something for people to do at 50. Before Incarnates, people replayed the ITF, the STF, the RSF, the Hamidon Raid and the Rikti Shuttle Raid. Now people play BAF, LAM, KEY, UGD, MOM and TPN. The pool of things to do has not increased dramatically, especially considering people mostly run BAF and LAM anyway, if what I hear over Global channels is anything to go by.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
So they implemented the Incarnate system and are pushing it to get people who want stuff to do with their 50s to play it.
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The Incarnate system is a progression system which came without content with I18, and was thus delayed for I19, where it came with almost no content anyway. And the way it's planned out, making content for it is a HELL of a lot more expensive and time-consuming than it's ever going to be worth, especially since people seem perfectly happy to keep replaying the same two raids they're familiar with. This is a boon to neither altoholics nor people with just one character. It's only a benefit to people who like clusterhug raids, and those don't have to be in either camp.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I think an astral at the end of it would be fine. An astral is 4 threads.|
Originally Posted by Turgenev
1. Would I run them? Sure. Content is content. This applies to your last question too.
2. Would they be run enough to make them worth making - depends on your qualifiers. If you're suggesting to award an Astral or Empyrean merit at the end of it, I think people would go nuts over it, and I think it would be a huge mistake balance-wise. BTW, what you named above basically translates into a story arc (I won't say task force, since those are typically much longer, with Apex/Tin Mage being exceptions). We have that already to many differing degrees. The "trial" part of it implies a comparative reward, which by your breakdown doesn't apply, I think. |
Woop de freaking doo.
To put this in perspective.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Apex_Task_Force
Apex ALREADY gives 1 Astral.
So does Tin Mage:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Tin_Mage..._Force#Rewards
And both Tin and Apex gives 10 THREADS which is worth more than an astral. And NOT on a timer. Only the Astral is.
Also I've seen Tin/Apex runs that go as fast as an hour.
As I stated make it 8-10 minimum-max and call it a day. If folks are reeaaaally huge up on the the difference between trial and tf, make it a max of 5 missions with two gimmicks or something. Meh.
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Even letting it give an Empyrean merit might not be overboard, subject to a timer of course, perhaps even a longer timer than the large trials. The current trials give both emps and a reward table, after all. The majority of the rares and VRs I've ever obtained have come from reward tables, not crafting from merits.
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Originally Posted by Turgenev
2. Would they be run enough to make them worth making - depends on your qualifiers. If you're suggesting to award an Astral or Empyrean merit at the end of it, I think people would go nuts over it, and I think it would be a huge mistake balance-wise.
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Hyperbole alert. |
Originally Posted by Ogi
What TF do you have to have at least 4 purple sets to get an invite for? Not MoX runs, just the plain old +0/x1 TF.
iTrials are level shifts or get out. |
If you're going to try and make a point, it's best to ensure your statements are factual. Based on my experience:
1. I have NEVER seen players vetted for the number of purples they have slotted.
2. BAF, Lambda, Keyes, and UG can be done unshifted, and I've never seen players vetted for their shifted status. I'm sure it's happened sometime on some server, to but suggest it happens regularly is a patent exaggeration. Perhaps your server sees a lot of this, but on Champion, iTrial formations are extremely PuG friendly. MoM and TPN have shifted AVs, and were designed for shifted players. As such it's not unreasonable to vet players to ensure they're going to be able to contribute in a meaningful way (an unshifted 50 will be completely useless against a 54+2 AV).
Q. Just wondering Posi, where are the new dance emotes we were told would come with GR?
A. Positron: Whoops, my bad.
1387 badges, and counting
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I have seen however some players not invited if they don't have at least a tier 2 Destiny that gives confuse protection on the UG. Which is not unreasonable.
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Originally Posted by Spatch
Hyperbole alert.
If you're going to try and make a point, it's best to ensure your statements are factual. Based on my experience: 1. I have NEVER seen players vetted for the number of purples they have slotted. 2. BAF, Lambda, Keyes, and UG can be done unshifted, and I've never seen players vetted for their shifted status. I'm sure it's happened sometime on some server, to but suggest it happens regularly is a patent exaggeration. MoM and TPN have shifted AVs, and were designed for shifted players. As such it's not unreasonable to vet players to ensure they're going to be able to contribute in a meaningful way (an unshifted 50 will be completely useless against a 54+2 AV). |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Perhaps I was just hallucinating all the "don't waste my time if you're not +1/+2" posts reprimanding under plussed players who dared try a trial where they are supposed to get their plusses and directing them to get their plusses on their own time.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Yeah, that's BS. I dislike iTrials just as much as any other guy but I've always been able to get (and participate somewhat efficiently, thanks to the very low level at which much of the playerbase plays rather than due to any ability on my own end...) a spot on leagues relatively easily, using fresh level 50 characters who are just alpha-unlocked (not alpha slotted, much less level shifted).
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But there are more Trials being added all the time - we're getting the Diabolique one in I22, and there's the showdown with Tyrant in the near future, plus the Coming Storm arriving - they're producing Trials at a way faster rate than any other content they've ever produced for 50s before.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Before Incarnates, people replayed the ITF, the STF, the RSF, the Hamidon Raid and the Rikti Shuttle Raid. Now people play BAF, LAM, KEY, UGD, MOM and TPN.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Since the transition to an F2P model, I've been simply gobsmacked at the amount of content being added to the game. It's been a veritable flurry of new content, including new power sets, new trials, new story arcs, signature story arcs, etc.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But there are more Trials being added all the time - we're getting the Diabolique one in I22, and there's the showdown with Tyrant in the near future, plus the Coming Storm arriving - they're producing Trials at a way faster rate than any other content they've ever produced for 50s before.
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Q. Just wondering Posi, where are the new dance emotes we were told would come with GR?
A. Positron: Whoops, my bad.
1387 badges, and counting
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I agree, to a point. Even a lowly Thread can, with enough of them, become a mighty Very Rare, but... I also disagree. Because I'm including setup time.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Everything you get on the Trials is useful - there's nothing you can't convert into something you need.
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If I have less than two hours to play and want to do a not-BAF/LAM trial, I can easily waste all my play time trying to set one up, or joining Leagues that other people have set up for said trials, only to never reach the minimum amount of players to win the trials, so they never start. That leaves me with two hours played, and nothing to show for it. Not even a Thread.
With four player trials, the setup time would be drastically reduced, meaning there'd be more trials run, even the less popular ones. Meaning there'd be a much bigger chance of getting anything useful when just logging on for a short time. A four man Underground-style trial with AVs balanced for four would be awesome.
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
Would I play them? Absolutely! I'd play the heck out of something like that...
Even though I'm one of those weird people who honestly enjoys the existing league-scale trials, duo/trio and "small team" are still my favorite ways to play this game. I liked the Halloween trial a lot, and have even had some good fun on random four and five player DfB runs.
Would they completely replace the trials for me, if they existed? No. Like I said, I actually enjoy those too, and would continue to play them... But having other options is a Good Thing. There are some nights and times we can't even get enough people together for a Lambda. That's when having small-team iContent would be nice. It would give us something to do with our "in progress" Incarnates that wasn't dependant on having quite so many of the Usual Suspects on-line.
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Thanks for the replies everyone!
A few more questions to think about:
If they did throw in a couple of smaller Incarnate Trials or Incarnate TFs/SFs, would you want them to be co-op, or would you like them to be seperated by side?
For something small and fast against "lesser" targets in the war, what kind of rewards do you think they should give? Would limiting the end reward to a common and an Astral be enough? (I'm trying to balance it against what the level 50 TFs give for the Alpha slot, basically.) Or would that be too much/too little?
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
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Aside from what GG and Spatch have already said, I just have to point out that this game isn't exactly known for its non-repetitive content. Just how many warehouses and miles of sewer system are there in Paragon, after all?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And that's where I have a problem with the whole system - it doesn't give people more to do. Not by much - a handful of Trials you can finish in a day.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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IC, I've always assumed Paragon City was designed by absinthe addicted lunatic architects. :P|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Aside from what GG and Spatch have already said, I just have to point out that this game isn't exactly known for its non-repetitive content. Just how many warehouses and miles of sewer system are there in Paragon, after all?
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And actually, most cities more than a century or two old do have extensive underground sections. It's not as extensive in American cities outside of the older ones like New York City or Boston (and because we have this odd habit of building on top of swamps), let alone the extreme catacombs of European or Middle Eastern cities, but it's not implausible if we assume Paragon, in some form or another, has been around as a city since the Industrial Revolution.
I'd still love for a warehouse entrance to a mission to be on the roof or at a skylight though. That'd crack me up.
You want to know the secret of the world? It's this: Save it, and it'll repay you, every second of every day.
@Dr. Reverend - My DeviantArt Gallery
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Heh, good point.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
Aside from what GG and Spatch have already said, I just have to point out that this game isn't exactly known for its non-repetitive content. Just how many warehouses and miles of sewer system are there in Paragon, after all?
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I know you can convert merits into a account-wide character item that can be claimed by another character on your account, but I haven't heard of otherwise.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Sorry, can you explain? This is news to me.
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head to the arcane or empyrial vendor to see what I'm talking about. I don't think you can do this with threads though.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
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Whoops, you're right. 1 Emp buys a voucher for 18 threads, 1 Astral buys a voucher for 4 threads or 1 shard. My bad, carry on.
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
I know you can convert merits into a account-wide character item that can be claimed by another character on your account, but I haven't heard of otherwise.
head to the arcane or empyrial vendor to see what I'm talking about. I don't think you can do this with threads though. |
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Absolutely. The single biggest turn-off for me of the existing trials is that it's multi-team content. I enjoy smaller teams, where I find more player interaction and make or enjoy lasting friendships. Trials make me feel pretty anonymous, and I haven't formed a single friendship-bond over them. I also really enjoyed the fact that the Halloween trial only required 4, though I wish it had been 4-8 or 2-4 and not 4-and-only-4.|
Originally Posted by Rabid_M
I have a question for everyone, because I'm curious as to what the response would be:
If they made SMALLER (4-8 players) Incarnate Trials, much like the Halloween trial, would people run them more than the larger trials? Would they run them enough to make them worth making? |
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Would you run them even if you're taking out "smaller" targets than the large trials take on? (A raid on a warehouse full of New and Improved Enriche, for example, with a non-Praetor AV at the end.) Why/why not? |
The idea that we'd need to take on lesser threats on a smaller team is one of the reasons that Incarnate content makes me feel like my characters have become less powerful as Incarnates, not more powerful.
I'd like to see some non-Praetorian stuff in there, too. It doesn't all have to involve Cole or the Well. I'm looking forward to Dark Astoria in Issue 22, and hope that Diabolique is just a side character, with Mot as the serious threat. I wish they hadn't included her at all, actually.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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Some people who put together teams are just stupid. For every one of which you just described, there are ten more that don't give a damn.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
Perhaps I was just hallucinating all the "don't waste my time if you're not +1/+2" posts reprimanding under plussed players who dared try a trial where they are supposed to get their plusses and directing them to get their plusses on their own time.
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At least there are different stories being told by those settings, which in themselves have very different layouts each time. I'm far more interested in the stories than in the "warehouses." A good storyteller can tell a good story with the tools provided without having to throw in sinking ships and burning buildings. As a point of fact, the more loud explosions a story hurls at my face, the less interested I am in the overall narrative, and I'm here far more because of that than because the gameplay is so enthralling.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Aside from what GG and Spatch have already said, I just have to point out that this game isn't exactly known for its non-repetitive content. Just how many warehouses and miles of sewer system are there in Paragon, after all?
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Like I said, one of my favourite arcs is still World Wide Red, and if you completely ignore the story of it, yes, it is just 20 missions of clearing out warehouses. It's the WHY of it, the story behind the warehouses, which makes it great. And it's the story behind the warehouses which seems to be in a tailspin right now.
*edit*
Also, I can't see anything Golden Girl is saying, nor do I wish to irrespective of its merit, thus I don't know what you're referring to.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Have you got this just permanently available with a ctrl-v?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
If the faster progress route of the Trials is a "grind", then the slower solo progress route will be a "grind" too
 The Trials are now a major feature of the game, and are popular with the devs and the players - they'll remain the core Incarnate content, and more and more of them will be added to the game as the Incarnate storyline unfolds. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I can type fast |
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Have you got this just permanently available with a ctrl-v?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I22 is a step in the right direction by making the LFG work when you're on a mission - now they need to make it work across the servers too.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork