Smaller iTrials: Would you do them?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-26 20:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Not to be a Snarky-Dragon but ...
You mean... if they were to make you know, a Task Force ?
As in Apex and Tin Mage (and I guess Kal and Sutter) ? - Incarnate Related
I would however like more task forces like Apex and Tin Mage 
@War-Nugget
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
CoH players are stupid and incompetent compared to WoW players.
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I see a trial as a single big mission where you have to do certan things in a certan order. Doing A triggers B. Dealing with B triggers C. And so on.|
Originally Posted by War-Nugget
Not to be a Snarky-Dragon but ...
You mean... if they were to make you know, a Task Force ? |
I also see trials as often having something more than just the AV's regeneration you have to overcome, often a timer of some sort.
Most importantly (for this), I see small trials as being FASTER than a normal TF/SF.
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
Sure.
I am an altoholic and as such - I have determined I have zero interest in trials or Incarnate abilities after the Alpha slot.
Why? Do you realize how many characters I could make in the time it took to run 30+ trials for each ability?
In my opinion the devs have made an incredibly stupid mistake. This game is about alts, fun and progression. They added a huge time sink right at the end. Instead of Valhalla where hero can fight and be drunk on battle and mead - we have an anchor slowing us down.
You want to be a super hero above all other heroes? Great just do 120 trials. ON EACH CHARACTER. The most incredible silliness that I can think of is that someone approved of it. Do it once and then each character has to do each trial ONCE to unlock it - now that makes good sense.
I will suspend judgement for myself on the solo/small team content and see if it makes sense. The Alpha slot was very well done, i do the arc get the slot and then play as I always did and progress. This is PUNISHMENT to progress and it reminds me of the Pit in the book Silverlocke - where in this case those who seek to better themselves take on a task where the goalposts are moved just as they reach it.
Faustopheles himself could not have devised a better punishment.
I will instead take the Delian way and head to Hippocrene to drink and enjoy the fun the game has and leave the Pit to those who need to wallow in it.
@Rabid M
Apex-Tin is short and simple. Back to back it is 30 minutes and you grab 80 merits and the choice between 20 threads or 2 astrals (Think there is shards in there too)
2-3 missions only too.
**
I agree though : I wouldn't mind seeing content for 2 - 8 players.
First thing that comes to my mind is Task Forces, because we have Apex/Tin which are incarnate-based.
@War-Nugget
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
CoH players are stupid and incompetent compared to WoW players.
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I'd play through them, though I would expect the rewards to be less than those involved with larger Incarnate Trials - or require more of the four to eight players than a full league of heroes. The hardest part of incarnate trials is getting people to work together, and it's a lot easier to do that with a small team than a large one.
Perceived problems in grinding, story, and mechanics would likely remain a source of many threads on the forums, though.
The Paladin
Steel Canyon, Virtue
Exalted
@Paladin
A couple more TFs, like Apex/TM, except designed for interface/judgment/destiny/lore rather than alpha, would be cool. I would totally get behind that. Or hell design them for the 6th and 7th tier, to keep us moving forward, that would be even better.
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You realize most of the trials can be run as quickly as (or quicker than) most TFs in the game, right? The only one that's really lengthy is The Underground trial. Minds of Mayhem, TPN and Keyes will all take less time than your typical ITF, and BAF and Lambda are even faster. (And the longer trials offer greater rewards.)|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I am an altoholic and as such - I have determined I have zero interest in trials or Incarnate abilities after the Alpha slot.
Why? Do you realize how many characters I could make in the time it took to run 30+ trials for each ability? In my opinion the devs have made an incredibly stupid mistake. This game is about alts, fun and progression. They added a huge time sink right at the end. Instead of Valhalla where hero can fight and be drunk on battle and mead - we have an anchor slowing us down. You want to be a super hero above all other heroes? Great just do 120 trials. ON EACH CHARACTER. The most incredible silliness that I can think of is that someone approved of it. Do it once and then each character has to do each trial ONCE to unlock it - now that makes good sense. I will suspend judgement for myself on the solo/small team content and see if it makes sense. The Alpha slot was very well done, i do the arc get the slot and then play as I always did and progress. This is PUNISHMENT to progress and it reminds me of the Pit in the book Silverlocke - where in this case those who seek to better themselves take on a task where the goalposts are moved just as they reach it. Faustopheles himself could not have devised a better punishment. I will instead take the Delian way and head to Hippocrene to drink and enjoy the fun the game has and leave the Pit to those who need to wallow in it. |
Smaller trials won't be faster, if anything they might be slower because you have fewer people working together. The solo path will definitely be at least a little slower, because otherwise the trials will die and the devs don't want that to happen (even if you do).
P.S. I'm an altaholic too and have quite a bit of interest in all Incarnate stuff, be they large trials, Incarnate TFs, and solo content (well, okay, I have to wait and see on this one, but I'm interested in theory).
P.P.S. It doesn't take 30 trials to create an ability, not sure where you got this whackadoodle idea. Maybe that many to get all the way up to a Very Rare, but really a Rare ability will suffice for pretty much all of the slots unless you're a huge min-maxer (which, if you are, is a choice). I mean, hell, you don't even need to finish TPN in order to get 60 threads (not counting whatever drops off enemies, nor any Astrals you've gotten up to that point) which can be turned into 3 Common components that can be used to create a Common ability. Complete the trial and you get 2 Empyreans which can be turned into another two Commons, plus whatever you get off the reward roll, plus probably another Common off the Astrals you've gotten. See, right there you've crafted up to an Uncommon ability, with a single half-hour trial. SUCH A GRIND.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
8 players or less, yes. Capped at less than 8, like the Halloween trial? No. I hated that the Halloween trial took 4 and only 4. I believe that was one of the most idiotic things ever, and I say that with some idea of why they might have done it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I'd say 6-8 or 4-8 would be ideal imo. Needing exactly x number of players, no more, no less can make forming things more difficult, such as the halloween trial, apex, tin mage, stf, rsf, etc.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
8 players or less, yes. Capped at less than 8, like the Halloween trial? No. I hated that the Halloween trial took 4 and only 4. I believe that was one of the most idiotic things ever, and I say that with some idea of why they might have done it.
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However with that said I think the minimum number of players for all TFs should be 2 players; but keep the TF scaled for whatever original minimum they had. (IE you could start a manticore TF with 2 people, but the TF would be scaled for 7 people). Doing TFs with less people can be alot more fun many times, not to mention they can take alot less time to form, and getting fillers for TFs is immensely annoying and sometimes not possible.
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****, can no thread with the word "trial" in go without this crap? "I reserve judgement" is enough.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
histrionic dribble
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Smaller trials would be a great option I think. Sometimes the 8 or so people in the staging area arent uber enough to do a Lambda like that. Be nice for those that want a trial to have one they could do in those situations.
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Good. The trials aren't there for you. Go make your characters and ignore the Incarnate stuff.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I am an altoholic and as such - I have determined I have zero interest in trials or Incarnate abilities after the Alpha slot.
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As for smaller iTrials, sure, why not? I'm thinking of something like the final mission of the ITF. That would be a pretty boss Trial in itself.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
I wonder if the Diabolique Trial in I22 will be slightly smaller scale, as she mightn't have any link to the Well now that she's free from Tyrant's control?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
If these smaller iTrials were set up so that people couldn't pre-form teams and destroy the usefulness of the LFG system, and were not horrible to play, then I would certainly queue up for them.
Of course, I'm still hoping the new Dark Astoria will give me a convenient avenue to building up my Incarnate characters.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I know she was siphoning more power from somewhere, the god in DA, wasn't it? So, though she may not be attached to Cole doesn't mean she's not got some boost up her ethereal sleeve. That may be another choice to gain Incarnate powers, steal them from someone else.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I wonder of the Diabolique Trial in I22 will be slightly smaller scale, as she mightn't have any link to the Well now that she's free from Tyrant's control?
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I also have many characters, and it doesn't take 30+ trials for each ability. You only "need" to get the Tier 3 power for any incarnate slot. T3 powers are for most purposes as good as the T4 power.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I am an altoholic and as such - I have determined I have zero interest in trials or Incarnate abilities after the Alpha slot.
Why? Do you realize how many characters I could make in the time it took to run 30+ trials for each ability? |
I've probably got 25 or more characters to T3 in all five slots (and most to T4 with Alpha). I play a lot, but I've never run more than three trials a night, and usually did just one or two (in part because I just got frustrated with all the crashing from the memory leaks when that was a problem).
The difference between a character with no Incarnate powers and one with five T3 powers is much greater than the difference between a character with five T3 powers and one with five T4 powers, even if you ignore the extra +2 levels that you get inside trials.
You just don't need the extra oomph a T4 power gives you in regular content, and in most trials you don't need that extra oomph if everyone else has T3 powers.
So, what I'm seeing so far is that maybe more Incarnate-oriented Task/Strike Forces is the way that more people would prefer?
Interesting, but understandable.
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
It isn't just the size that would get me interested. Task Forces have a different pacing than trials.
IMO Apex, the ITF, and the revised Positrons are the four best Task Forces in the game, all for somewhat different reasons. Part of what they share in common though is a relatively low number of enemies with mezzes, and the ability to clean yourself off after a total team wipe and come back and try again without having to start completely over.
[The reason I mention the mezz thing specifically is its kind of a "squishie survivability switch." Melee characters pretty much ignore mezzes entirely and squishies are in "inspiration or die" mode. I wish whoever is balancing enemies would be more careful about how much mezz is thrown around by enemies in the game. Positron does throw some mezz around, but more debuff than anything.]
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So you are telling to only drink twice from the spring at Hippocrene, in other words intentionally lessen your expectations?|
Originally Posted by Rodion
I also have many characters, and it doesn't take 30+ trials for each ability. You only "need" to get the Tier 3 power for any incarnate slot. T3 powers are for most purposes as good as the T4 power.
I've probably got 25 or more characters to T3 in all five slots (and most to T4 with Alpha). I play a lot, but I've never run more than three trials a night, and usually did just one or two (in part because I just got frustrated with all the crashing from the memory leaks when that was a problem). The difference between a character with no Incarnate powers and one with five T3 powers is much greater than the difference between a character with five T3 powers and one with five T4 powers, even if you ignore the extra +2 levels that you get inside trials. You just don't need the extra oomph a T4 power gives you in regular content, and in most trials you don't need that extra oomph if everyone else has T3 powers. |
Can you read that again to me? So you say only do 12-16 trials for EACH character? Ignore making them more powerful to the highest ability? So do a few trials just until you need glasses not until you go blind.
I'd love to do TF sized trials.
One of the biggest problems with iTrials is not the trialling itself but waiting around while a trial gets enough people to get going. The "open" mechanic allowing anyone to join doesn't seem to work and besides, people like to play with people they know, so getting a full league together is a PITA!
Also once you've got 24 people spamming pretty colours it becomes almost impossible to actually see anything even with gfx turned down as far as anything.
Leagues don't actually add much to the game, in fact in many ways they detract from it and should only be used very occasionally IMO - the classic "Avengers + X-Men + FF + Inhumans team up to save the world!" scenario, and we're not doing anything of the sort in Trials.
Thelonious Monk
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Pity they're one of the selling points of the VIP subscription, no? It's not like that's the only person who has a problem with them. Telling people to effectively shut up or put up is not constructive, and I hope the development team will prove they have recognised this basic fact of running a service with Dark Astoria. Because that WILL be the real test of mettle and pretty much the last shot.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Good. The trials aren't there for you. Go make your characters and ignore the Incarnate stuff.
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As for "smaller Trials," I might be tempted to run them IF I had a reason to play my 50s to begin with, and that reason would be something I can do by myself. It'll be a cold day in hell before I will ever consider logging a character in with my only prospect being to sit on my hands and wait for a Something Team to form and pick me up, and over my dead body will I be forced to herd cats and form my own. I've only ever left this game once - back in September of 2004, and feeling an obligation to deal with teams on a constant basis is pretty much the reason for it.
Smaller Trials are a great aside from solo play, which can indeed become a grind and a chore at times. As long as I don't have to run Trials, all Trials and nothing but Trials - i.e. as long as I have an alternative - then sure, I'll run them. The smaller the better. It's not a question of speed. It's a question of people's attitude. About five people and over is a crowd, and people in a crowd turn into clowns. Four and below (ideally, three and below) really isn't so much of a crowd, and it allows people to regard each other as individuals, rather than as a faceless mob.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yep, for the same reasons Scarlet Shocker listed.
Ultimately, I'd prefer soloable content with incentive to run on teams, much like the shard system for the Alpha slot, which was close to perfect ; with each player having a chance at a drop, drops increase as team size increases. Rather than being penalized for playing with less people, you're rewarded for playing with more people.
Isn't that what DFB is? Judging from the amount of people who play it, I'd go with a yes as answer to your question.
Yes, I know it's not an iTrial, but as a model, you can see there is more than enough interest.
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I have a question for everyone, because I'm curious as to what the response would be:
If they made SMALLER (4-8 players) Incarnate Trials, much like the Halloween trial, would people run them more than the larger trials?
Would they run them enough to make them worth making?
Would you run them even if you're taking out "smaller" targets than the large trials take on? (A raid on a warehouse full of New and Improved Enriche, for example, with a non-Praetor AV at the end.)
Why/why not?
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn