Gender Equality in Costumes - A lack thereof
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-11-29 06:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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How about you come right out and say what you think these "true colors" are? You tried to question the example of a ridiculous outfit for the Invisble Woman that Marvel had of course published in the 90s? You're throwing scare quotes around "whorrific" when you evidently haven't even bothered to follow the link to which it refers, i.e. the ludicrous new redesign of Harley Quinn's costume.|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
I AM arguing with the "True Gentleman" and ilk, who are showing their colors by tossing words like "whorrific" around regarding wholly valid female choices.
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I wouldn't presume to speak on behalf of all the women I've gamed with about how they want or don't want their characters to appear. I will say that I've noticed my own female avatars get treated noticeably differently depending on merely how tight their costumes are (it's creepy).
Perhaps I'm being merely self-interested, but I'd like a game that appeals as widely as possible and doesn't alienate a significant portion of its potential playerbase. The limitations in options that Techbot has amply illustrated and that have been complained about for a long time now aren't promoting that.
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Yeah, but there was a specific example of that actually being the underlying storyline of an arc. And since she doesn't pay him enough attention, he kills her.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Yes, that was the female boss I was referring to.
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So I used that example instead.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Absolutely not - I put 'sexy' in quotes there; it's standing in for revealing, slutty, what have you. It's certainly not the only expression of sexy out there, but it sure seems to be the default at Paragon, and they sure seem to want to make sure our female characters are 'sexy.'
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
I can't be the only guy who thinks a woman in a cool jacket is sexy?
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Isn't it more like you manipulate his creepy obsession into killing her and then go "HA-HA"? Or am I thinking of another arc?
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Yeah, but there was a specific example of that actually being the underlying storyline of an arc. And since she doesn't pay him enough attention, he kills her.
So I used that example instead. |
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Glad to see there was eventually a dev response, albeit after the pack launched. Too bad they didn't follow up on at *least* the issues brought up concerning the pistols being gripped and the inexplicable white patch on one jacket. I can understand that taking the set down entirely to address the saloon girl thing'd be bad for meeting time hacks and cause some problems elsewhere, but, to not fix some of the bugs is... iffy.
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I won't try to speak for anyone but myself, but here goes. For the record, I am a staunch advocate for complete costume equality between males and females. Let the guys wear corsets if they want, I say.|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
Anyway, it would actually be nice to have more female feedback, because a different kind of male bias permeates this thread, and it's as out of tune with reality as any.
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I am a female player. I make characters built around concepts that interest me. I like sexy outfits. I have a character named PinUp Girl, for goodness' sake. I even have one named Dancehall Girl, who will probabgly use a few of these new pieces (thanks to the devs for the hat-free Ringlets hairstyle, finally!) It is ridiculous that they run around fighting crime in their high heels and skimpy costumes, but I have fun with it.
I also like to make characters in outfits that are more realistic and practical--outfits real people might conceivably wear. My 1930s aviatrix is clad in something that would keep her warm in an open cockpit. My archaeologist/sharpshooter is covered from head to toe. Sexy is fine sometimes, but I don't want 24 -7 SexxxxyBabezTime.
I don't have a problem with the 'saloon girl' costume pieces. They don't offend me in and of themselves. I will likely use some of them here and there. I am always happy about more costume bits.
However, when I heard about a Gunslinger Pack, I was not looking to get more corsets or thigh-high boots. Thanks to the Steampunk and Barbarian packs, we actually have a nice selection of corsets as it is. Aside from the Ringlets and the cigarillo, I am disappointed in what this pack contains.
What I was hoping for from this pack: gunfighter coats/jackets, spiffy vests, new hats, new boots, a duster. For males and females. Maybe an actual cowboy gun--'73 Winchester or longrifle--for the AR powerset, at long last! Oh, and holsters. I mean, how could there not be holsters? I am still totally boggled about the lack of a gunbelt. Really?
Sexy is fine, but for the love of Edith Head, please give us more concept-focused non-sexy costume bits. I want to make a cool-looking female gunfighter. Tombstone is an awesome flick and a great inspiration, but not all the ladies want to dress like Katie Elder; some of us want to dress like Doc Holliday.
I bought this set, but I feel kind of conflicted about it. It is just not a Gunslinger pack, to my mind, yet I've put my stamp of approval on it with my credit card. I am weak. I am glad to see that the devs are listening (and I'm thrilled at the news about pre-tinted pieces).
Devs, please consider revisiting the Gunslinger theme in a follow-up pack. I will gladly give you money for it if it contains gunfighter clothes for the ladies. And holsters.
Busting heads since 1938
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In the thread about issue 21.5, Zwil said that they have to send the publishes off a week before they go out, so at best, the last week of "beta" is meaningless, whether we're talking about art or something more substantial.
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Originally Posted by Obsidius
I guess the real moral of the story is: don't bother with feedback to anything related to the Art Team, because if there's a problem with something, it won't be addressed at all or will take a very long time due to backlogging.
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Chauvinistic.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
How about you come right out and say what you think these "true colors" are?
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
I wouldn't presume to speak on behalf of all the women I've gamed with about how they want or don't want their characters to appear.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
I will say that I've noticed my own female avatars get treated noticeably differently depending on merely how tight their costumes are (it's creepy).
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Perhaps I'm being merely self-interested, but I'd like a game that appeals as widely as possible and doesn't alienate a significant portion of its potential playerbase. The limitations in options that Techbot has amply illustrated and that have been complained about for a long time now aren't promoting that.
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Edit: And I just saw the Masked Shrike's feedback. Hope this thread sees more like that.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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Ah, that's the 'guess I don't need to bother buying that pack, ever' nod from the developers.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
To elaborate, Jay joined his friends start up. He had been with Paragon/COH for over 7 years and contributed greatly to the artistic development of the game, in fact you're going to be seeing the results of his work for some time to come. It's also worth pointing out, CoH was the only game Jay had worked on in the gaming sector, so it's understandable that he'd want to broaden his portfolio and experience a bit more.
Basically, he couldn't tell his friend "no" anymore and made the leap over. We certainly miss him and wish him all the best. Good news is, we still have two very experienced and veteran artists with both Eric and Cheryl and a new addition joining the art team soon. |
Good to know. I can keep saving up my points to buy... something, I suppose. Not a weapon set (hate redraw) and I'm getting sick of buying costume sets that only have corsets for females.
Guess I'll have a lot of points to spend on *something* eventually.
Still here, even after all this time!
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No. He wanted to crush/kill her at the start of the arc due to her rejection of him - read the text here, starting at part two. You manipulate his obsession into allowing you to infiltrate and blow up the base - he just wanted revenge.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Isn't it more like you manipulate his creepy obsession into killing her and then go "HA-HA"? Or am I thinking of another arc?
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You do rub his nose in it after he sees her dead and finally begins to think that maybe he went a little overboard.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Politics aside; a revamp making its way through more of the established NPC groups, where/when feasible, would be nice.
I actually liked the revamp they did to the Infected in Mercy; the addition of females AND the variety added to the male costuming.
I liked what they did with the revamp of the CoT.
I liked that when they did the Praetorian NPC groups that it was a decent mix of gender AND variety within gender (Syndicate, Destroyers, Protestors, Carnival of Light)
I liked that they made an attempt with the Hellions.
I'm glad that whenever they introduce new powersets to the player that they try to create/modify a model to one of the NPC groups to port it to.
I look at the older stuff now and think, "How rigid, bland and archaic."
[female zombies during the Zombie Apocalypse?]
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
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Devs, if you're going to listen to anyone in this thread, ignore everyone else including me and just read this. I suspect this is the closest to the average person's viewpoint you're ever likely to get.
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Originally Posted by The Masked Shrike
I won't try to speak for anyone but myself, but here goes. For the record, I am a staunch advocate for complete costume equality between males and females. Let the guys wear corsets if they want, I say.
I am a female player. I make characters built around concepts that interest me. I like sexy outfits. I have a character named PinUp Girl, for goodness' sake. I even have one named Dancehall Girl, who will probabgly use a few of these new pieces (thanks to the devs for the hat-free Ringlets hairstyle, finally!) It is ridiculous that they run around fighting crime in their high heels and skimpy costumes, but I have fun with it. I also like to make characters in outfits that are more realistic and practical--outfits real people might conceivably wear. My 1930s aviatrix is clad in something that would keep her warm in an open cockpit. My archaeologist/sharpshooter is covered from head to toe. Sexy is fine sometimes, but I don't want 24 -7 SexxxxyBabezTime. I don't have a problem with the 'saloon girl' costume pieces. They don't offend me in and of themselves. I will likely use some of them here and there. I am always happy about more costume bits. However, when I heard about a Gunslinger Pack, I was not looking to get more corsets or thigh-high boots. Thanks to the Steampunk and Barbarian packs, we actually have a nice selection of corsets as it is. Aside from the Ringlets and the cigarillo, I am disappointed in what this pack contains. What I was hoping for from this pack: gunfighter coats/jackets, spiffy vests, new hats, new boots, a duster. For males and females. Maybe an actual cowboy gun--'73 Winchester or longrifle--for the AR powerset, at long last! Oh, and holsters. I mean, how could there not be holsters? I am still totally boggled about the lack of a gunbelt. Really? Sexy is fine, but for the love of Edith Head, please give us more concept-focused non-sexy costume bits. I want to make a cool-looking female gunfighter. Tombstone is an awesome flick and a great inspiration, but not all the ladies want to dress like Katie Elder; some of us want to dress like Doc Holliday. I bought this set, but I feel kind of conflicted about it. It is just not a Gunslinger pack, to my mind, yet I've put my stamp of approval on it with my credit card. I am weak. I am glad to see that the devs are listening (and I'm thrilled at the news about pre-tinted pieces). Devs, please consider revisiting the Gunslinger theme in a follow-up pack. I will gladly give you money for it if it contains gunfighter clothes for the ladies. And holsters. |
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I think this is the thing that I find most depressing. That they ask for feedback but it doesn't seem to change a thing. It makes a beta test for art assets a pointless exercise, nothing more than an opportunity for VIPs to test out the new pack but not to change it.
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Originally Posted by Obsidius
I guess the real moral of the story is: don't bother with feedback to anything related to the Art Team, because if there's a problem with something, it won't be addressed at all or will take a very long time due to backlogging.
Don't get me wrong, I love the art of CoH. But there's a pretty big flaw in the process, especially if you open a feedback thread regarding art assets in testing (in addition to a bug report thread) with little to no intention of actually using any gathered feedback. Feedback threads are customarily created to immediately address concerns the playerbase may have with items, not as a "circular file" for players to send feedback into a vortex. I think that's the big problem a lot of players see with this issue. You've basically admitted that, even if there were issues with pieces, such as the pre-tinting or lack of options, nothing could have been done before the set was launched. If that was truly the case, there was little to no need for a feedback thread at all. It's like trying to give feedback on a ship that's already careening down the slipway ("Oh wait, there's a hole in the bow? Oh well..."). It makes a feedback thread an empty, futile gesture at best. |
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I'm not against sexy costumes, what I am against is the disparity of sexy costumes we get.
Bar the CoT set Women costume options have all been revealing skirts, corsets and dolled up hair. When you hear a set called Gunslinger you expect something to do with guns. What the CoH Female Character got was is a Bordello costume which has absolutely no relation to being a gunslinger. No gun belts, no bullet straps, no cowboy hats, sherrif stars or boots with spurs.
I mean if this is what they thought best represented "Gunslinger" they clearly have a different definition of it to me. It'd be easy to let this slide if it wasn't the status quo and just the latest in a fairly long line of giving us more 'sexy' options at the expense of things we've been very keen to have. More Jackets is said practically every time this comes up!
Yes current comics are heavily sexualised. But this isn't a point it's favour and a lot of comics these days are trying to undo the soft core porn aesthetic they've built up. Look at the furor over Red Hood and Catwoman recently. It's becoming less acceptable and just ... well... embarrassing to have characters who are little more than T&A.
No one is asking for all sexy options to be removed, we're just asking for there to be less of the skin revealing, sexualised stuff as currently it's pretty much ALL we're getting.
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Originally Posted by The Masked Shrike
I won't try to speak for anyone but myself, but here goes. For the record, I am a staunch advocate for complete costume equality between males and females. Let the guys wear corsets if they want, I say.
I am a female player. I make characters built around concepts that interest me. I like sexy outfits. I have a character named PinUp Girl, for goodness' sake. I even have one named Dancehall Girl, who will probabgly use a few of these new pieces (thanks to the devs for the hat-free Ringlets hairstyle, finally!) It is ridiculous that they run around fighting crime in their high heels and skimpy costumes, but I have fun with it. I also like to make characters in outfits that are more realistic and practical--outfits real people might conceivably wear. My 1930s aviatrix is clad in something that would keep her warm in an open cockpit. My archaeologist/sharpshooter is covered from head to toe. Sexy is fine sometimes, but I don't want 24 -7 SexxxxyBabezTime. I don't have a problem with the 'saloon girl' costume pieces. They don't offend me in and of themselves. I will likely use some of them here and there. I am always happy about more costume bits. However, when I heard about a Gunslinger Pack, I was not looking to get more corsets or thigh-high boots. Thanks to the Steampunk and Barbarian packs, we actually have a nice selection of corsets as it is. Aside from the Ringlets and the cigarillo, I am disappointed in what this pack contains. What I was hoping for from this pack: gunfighter coats/jackets, spiffy vests, new hats, new boots, a duster. For males and females. Maybe an actual cowboy gun--'73 Winchester or longrifle--for the AR powerset, at long last! Oh, and holsters. I mean, how could there not be holsters? I am still totally boggled about the lack of a gunbelt. Really? Sexy is fine, but for the love of Edith Head, please give us more concept-focused non-sexy costume bits. I want to make a cool-looking female gunfighter. Tombstone is an awesome flick and a great inspiration, but not all the ladies want to dress like Katie Elder; some of us want to dress like Doc Holliday. I bought this set, but I feel kind of conflicted about it. It is just not a Gunslinger pack, to my mind, yet I've put my stamp of approval on it with my credit card. I am weak. I am glad to see that the devs are listening (and I'm thrilled at the news about pre-tinted pieces). Devs, please consider revisiting the Gunslinger theme in a follow-up pack. I will gladly give you money for it if it contains gunfighter clothes for the ladies. And holsters. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Devs, if you're going to listen to anyone in this thread, ignore everyone else including me and just read this. I suspect this is the closest to the average person's viewpoint you're ever likely to get.
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@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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Well done, little man - that's the closest thing to a laugh I've gotten out of this thread so far. You'll need more than just Spice Girls-grade feminism if you want to be truly provocative, though.|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
Chauvinistic.
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| Which is wise, considering many of them enjoy the options you've railed against. |
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| Again, no argument. I want to see a broader range of additional options too, but keep in mind that there's a demand for revealing costumes. This is what I meant by "throwing the baby out with the bath water." |
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Zwil, please take no offense personally as I mean none. But, in truth, most costume pieces CAN be copied and pasted to the new model. The thing is, every single costume "design" can be carried over. Just that in some cases, a model/frame/geo might need slight adjustment.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Because each costume piece has to be individually created (we can't CTRL+C, CTRL+V the pieces from male to female unfortunately
 ), this does mean that we will be offering less overall unique options, however we feel it's important to address this concern. |
Case and Point:
Male Gunslinger
Female Gunslinger
Female version of Male Gunslinger
As you can see, by editing the .costume files you CAN make female versions of the male costumes. The only bump is that you have to find a pre-existing ".geo" file to closely match the male version. Now, in reality, every costume piece can be switched around if there was a suitable male/female/huge version of the ".geo" file.
And once one version of the ".geo" file is made, you don't have to totally remake a new .geo file for every body type. So, actually, if someone there "Ctrl+C" then "Ctrl+V"'d each .geo and slightly edited it for the gender (ie. chest) then the work is 3/4ths done already.
Would it be time consuming to make new .geo's for each new costume set? Hell yes. Would the players pay TOP dollar to have a little more work go into each set? Hell yes!
I realize everyone there goes on to the next big thing rather quickly, but sometimes putting in that little extra effort is what really make the payoff that much more worth it.
/2cents
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
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In the vernacular...|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Wouldn't that just be a dream?
"Here are some concept sketches for an upcoming costume pack. Vote for your favorite!" |
IAWTC
Dame Silverwing (50 Kat/SR Scrapper) Virtue
Professor Bikini (50 Bots/Dark MM) Virtue
Dame Silver Fury (41 Peacebringer) Virtue
Operative Velvet (50 Fortunata) Virtue
Petal Dancer (35 Plant/Kin Contoller) Virtue
Tanegashima (Rapidly levelling DP/Ice Blaster) Virtue
(and more)
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Wow, that's pretty impressive! It'd be nice to see that done, it might be busywork but since we're going to be buying them I don't see why it'd be bad to do it.
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Originally Posted by Commander
Zwil, please take no offense personally as I mean none. But, in truth, most costume pieces CAN be copied and pasted to the new model. The thing is, every single costume "design" can be carried over. Just that in some cases, a model/frame/geo might need slight adjustment.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
You're the one who posted the link about 'men being expendable.' Which has nothing to do with clothing.
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Taking a step back to halt escalation. I apologize, because my last post on this subject was snippy.
Firstly, you're right, what I wrote didn't have anything to do with clothing. I was responding to the side discussion about why there are no female members of some factions. If that somehow led to an interpretation that I was saying female clothes don't matter because men tend to die a lot then that is not what I intended.
Now, I will be honest. The tone of this discussion frustrates me for the same reasons the "fridge" talk last week did. IMO quite a few posters have thrown the "sexism" accusation around like rice at a wedding. Then when challenged on it, they coyly remark that they are just making observations and any negative feelings that result are just reflections of the reader's insecurities. I think it's unproductive for a number of reasons even if politically I sit on the same side of the fence. Mainly because calling someone or something "sexist" carries a distinctly moral tone as opposed to a simply evaluative one.
To get to the point: when you point at some specific developer, or some specific poster, and say that his or her work reflects a poor moral character, you had better damn well make sure you are going to give them a chance to respond. It would be helpful to approach the subject gingerly too. Because despite insurances from the ringleaders that they aren't doing it maliciously, passive-aggressive lectures tend to net aggressive-aggressive reactions, whether they are posted or not.
PS I want the Star belt for my Joan of Arkansas character. And if you ever call one of my female toons a prostitute, they will punch you in the face.
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I came into this argument as a middle-of-the-line supporter of choice. I left it as a hard-learning apologist for feminazis everywhere, with a very small anatomy. |
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Well done, little man - that's the closest thing to a laugh I've gotten out of this thread so far.
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*Sigh*
Arguing on the Internet.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
On the other hand, it's interesting that you're more interested in arguing more with the male posters in this thread than the female ones are saying much the same thing.
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@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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Really?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The Rogue PPD are all male, and the majority of the Longbow ones who become vigilantes are men
 |
All the female longbow I punched in the face on my Hero alignment mission today have their feelings hurt by your lies.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
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He may be over-reacting, and you are right it isn't a wiki, but the fact that someone made the distinct effort to remove a simple informative statement (taking Techbot at his word) is still just a bit... well, not what I would have expected from Paragon until lately.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I think you're overreacting. The Facebook page is basically a marketing outlet, not a place to exercise your right to free assembly. Its not a wiki.
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City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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Aw don't spoil it. It makes me giggle.
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Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
Will everyone PLEASE stop calling Techbot a girl?
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I will comment that while I'm not surprised they didn't add any options before sending it to live, I AM amazed that they apparently didn't even touch any of the bugs filed and reported during beta testing.
That in of itself is a big concern right there.
And i'll stop before I go into Yahtzee mode and start making derogatory remarks about the Developers.
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