Gender Equality in Costumes - A lack thereof

I grew up on Star Trek, was taught to value the scientific method over zealotry or prejudice, was raised around some headstrong women. The reason I want to keep typically female pieces in production isn't for the sake of veiled misogyny, or keeping our female characters in as little clothing as possible. Contrary to what I may sound like, I badly want to see male to female conversions. It would satisfy the part of me that is proud to be a member of the 21st Century and completely agrees with your summary above. But... NOT at the expense of uniquely female styles that are a staple of the comic book genre. Not at the expense of City of X's proven, award-winning artistic direction. Wherever Paragon Studios is forced to choose, I am firmly on their side, such as it has been. I want it to remain steeped in the comic books. I never want PC Gamer or the Comic Vine to revisit City of X and snicker for all the world to hear, "City of...what is this I don't even"

When people in this thread are using terms like "whorrific" and "sexually available" to describe costumes, I don't think it's a far stretch to perceive cheap shots being taken at the players who want to buy and wear them. It's not cool. But this is probably largely about perception. I recognize that. No biggie. I really (really) don't want to think too much about this. It doesn't relate to development directly and earlier in the thread I allowed it to distract me from the topic.

The fact that it appears that we'll never get a female gunslinger set now is what I most dislike about it.

This, really. It's the 'That was all you're getting' that makes it sour, rather than the actual quality of the parts (which were to the current high standard, might I add)

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Sure. Absolutely fair.

And I should amend my statement:

This is the moment for you to step forward and show your commitment to treating your customers with respect.

Paragon Studios does respect its customers. This is an argument you should be taking up with over 75 years worth of comic book writers, artists, and publishers, not with Paragon Studios. It's not silly to request additional/broader themes in costume packs. But it is absolutely silly to request that Paragon Studios discontinue producing comic book genre-aligned costumes. And sometimes they have to make a choice.

Hiya, Captain!

I snipped out other good comments of yours along the same lines, but I understand, respect and agree with it almost in its entirety.
The tiny bit I don't, personally, agree with is that this game mustn't break away from any previously set standards of comicbooks.
Now... please understand that I do want to see it keep the super sexy, even physics defying, element! So, I am not, at all, against that being there.
So, again, we are on the same page really.
I can understand how you are a bit more extreme in your defense of it and I thank you for reflecting and acknowledging it.
I think there is something else we agree on about over-the-top sexy/revealing (or whatever) outfits, even to outrageous degrees... They are not demeaning at all when worn by a person who feels like it is a part of their persona, who wants to wear that because of a multitude of strong personal and individual reasons of their own.
And I never want to see those options stop being added!

I think you can also agree, understand and respect the element of the girl wanting to be a "tom boy" and being dealt the Barbie card.
I think that the Gunslinger theme was one that a lot of such minded individuals could see a victory for the rugged woman archetype.
I really believe that this whole topic of what sort of clothing options should be chosen when making these packs is a matter of considerately catering to both sides at different times... a balancing act.
I do think, as apparently several others have, that they slipped up a bit in that regard.
No big deal, it happens.
And here is the reason why I think that the tomboy crowd (not sure if that is a good way to put it, but I'm pretty sick of this topic anyway and feel the need to use new words/phrases, hehe) should be catered to as well as those who want more extreme female options..
People all like to talk about how the newer costume pieces are better than the old. They have more details. They have higher resolution. Even just being new has its own appeal.

Some characters call for a rugged, utilitarian or maybe even a conservative look. I know as a role-player that you know this!!
Those options deserve to be rewarded too.
It's just a give and a take.
Some people just felt like the balance swung out of whack.
I wish people wouldn't attack other people's opinions. Let each of our individual opinions stand and we'll see the overall tallied result eventually.

If one of those characters was in a group with you who got transported into the Wild West... And there's a chest full of period-fitting clothes to wear in order to blend in... Would you not feel bad for them if they only got a opened skirt and a corset and frills and such, while you and the rest of the boys got good ol' gunslinger garb?
If that female character was a really serious, conservative, not happy about showing that skin sort of person? If it was your sister? Your mother? Your wife?
Hey... some of them, it'd be a funny gag... Some of them, it might not be a single problem... some of them it may be completely WELCOME... But some of them it is just wrong and I'd like to see those types catered to and this particular theme was a great chance to throw 'em a bone while going full-out fabulous and extravagant for the next pack.

Well, I hope it is clear that I never extend any such judgment, if/when I say that something conjures a prostitute to mind, onto anyone.
I honestly am reminded of the legendary brothel ladies with this costume. I can't see how anyone (other than a legitimate saloon hall girl) should take any offense to that.
Maybe it is something to do with how people think about prostitutes? I don't know.
Why is it such an offense, really?
I love Inara from Firefly!
That character is a prostitute.
I don't find that offensive. I have actually spoken with someone who does though... So, maybe that is a factor.
Most people seem to accept her as a prostitute because it is a matter of culture and all that. Fact is, there are legal prostitutes in current cultures in our own world... Within America, even.

I just don't see people connecting that costume with old-time brothel houses as offensive. Hey, speaking of Firefly... isn't that how most of those brothel girls in "heart Of Gold" dressed? I don't understand how it is difficult to understand people making the connection.
I'm not saying it is completely correct/accurate. However, being incorrect and being insulting is different. When it is a matter of opinion though... this issue is even more confusing to me.

Okay, I really wasn't planning on getting things that much.
I will say that I am glad, even among a lot of mud slinging going on now, that we can just speak respectfully even if we have disagreements. I wish everyone could understand that.

I really do feel like several people opposing TechBot's viewpoint are attacking him and others in agreement. They seem to feel like they were under attack. No one wants to undo what others enjoy, they just wanted to let it be known that their enjoyment was being damaged and that they hoped this wasn't intentional nor going to go perpetually untended.

*holds everyone's hands and skips around*
*hands everyone their hands back*

P.S. If you got the wrong hands, please check finger prints and send them to their proper owner. Thank you.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Thank you.

Personally, I've always been rather fond of the way that for once I managed to find a pun that kinda sorta "ambushes" people ... what with how the spelling doesn't exactly match up with the pronunciation (for those who speak English rather than Gaelic). Whenever I receive tells in game, or become a topic of conversation in the Cape Radio Channel, just because I said something while playing Sidhe Bang ... it's nice to know that I'm only getting the response I do from people who "know enough to Get It" when reading the name, Sidhe Bang.



We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion about ART ... and the marketing thereof ...already in progress ...

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Many of the people describing the costumes are saying or implying *they* are offended in some way by them. If its the intent, I don't think anyone is getting the vibe that some people are upset that there's nothing but honorable prostitute options being generated. Its being used as an insult, primarily of the costume itself and secondarily of the developers who thought it was acceptable. But its very difficult not to extend that to the people who use the costumes and think they are perfectly acceptable. Obviously, those people must just like looking like whores.

Inara isn't *portrayed* as something to be ashamed of or embarrassed by. But try this: "why does television have so many whores on it, like Inara? Television executives should respect their female audience more than to be portraying women as willing prostitutes." Very different feel.

Its highly unlikely anyone is hearing "there's too much whorish female options" and hearing something no different than saying "there's too much firefighter female options." Not when the complaint rises to the point of saying its symptomatic of a lack of respect for female game players. You don't say that about an option you think is noble and respectable but there's just a few too many of. No one would say "this blatant lack of respect for women which is typified by costume set after costume set of armored suits for women cannot be tolerated."

If people said "there should be more options that aren't the sexy frilly type" no one would think that was an insult to the people who like those options. But saying "its insulting there's nothing but tramps" is insulting, and you can't just hand-wave that away by saying there's no intent to insult. Its insulting to hear that someone else thinks the things Paragon Studios is giving you and you are happily using is a sign the developers have poor judgment.

The difference is the difference between asking Paragon for different options, and telling Paragon they should be ashamed of the ones they are making. If they should be ashamed of making them, I should be ashamed for wearing them. I know that's not the intent, at least for most people, or else I'd be ripping people's heads off for making that sort of insult. But its the reasonable conclusion, and even if you are trying to give people the benefit of the doubt, hearing it over and over and over again isn't easy.

My heroines are not prostitutes. They are just working their way through college.

I wish I was wrong. I think there's a lot more story opportunities to be had by keeping these stereotypes separate.

But both TV Tropes (Western Character: Soiled Dove leads only to ****** With a Heart of Gold and Miss Kitty) and Wikipedia (under 'Entertainment') support my proposition.

If you know of better barometers of incorrect but ubiquitous modern perceptions than TV Tropes and Wikipedia, please point them out to me. I love reading about the uncountable ways the human mind divorces itself from facts.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Arcanaville believes we are "merely" looking at a City of Heroes Fan Service Pack which is giving us more Fan Service With A Smile.
I think, that for whatever reason, the Wild West has been exempted from those tropes.
Maybe the similiarity between Dance Hall / Saloon Girls and modern bar girls is just too much to overcome.
Maybe, for once, the general public is actually willing to entertain a darker truth instead of winking at it.
It's hard to say. But the undeniable public opinion is that saloon girls were whores.

And lastly, even if you want to stick your head in the sand and go for the Dude's "Well, that's just your opinion, Man", my opinion is based on the several years I spent working criminal defense in Baltimore.

I know a prostitute when I see one.

Well, no, because firefighter options aren't objectifying. Firefighter options emphasize heroism, not boobs. (I'm assuming we're talking about actual options one would fight a fire in, not something someone would pose for a calendar in.)

No, they wouldn't, because it'll never happen.

well, since im in a goofy mood after work ill work with your analogy, because i happen, for my job, to work with a number of tools of varying degree, and i build some very delicate electronics but i almost never use a large hammer, because there is always a better, more precise tool with less chance of destroying what it is trying to accomplish. a big hammer is the tool of a amateur or a clumsy worker, or someone who wants to destroy something utterly, not of someone who wants to build up something that works.

Kahn drem ov homie.

Well, I'm only going to speak for myself here, but I have said that the outfit makes me think of brothel ladies (I've also said dancer/singer saloon girls, but I definitely have said and implied prostitutes one or more times). For whatever it is worth, when I say that, I just literally mean that this is what they remind me of and what I think the costume is based off of.
I don't have a problem with those costumes being in the game at all. For the record, I don't have a problem with costumes directly based on a prostitute's outfit being in the game (then again, is there anything that is really specifically exclusive to that profession?).
It's just a costume and fashion is re-purposed all the time. To me, that has zero implication on the costume user/wearer.
My problem is not that the outfit reminds me of wild west prostitutes, but that it is not the gritty, rough and tumble outfit that the males got.
Period, the end, have a nice day... Hehe, that is all I am saying when I say that I didn't like that the male and huge models only got the Gunslinger - man of action - while the female models only got the saloon girl/brothel worker outfit. Hopefully no one feels offended by that. I love everyone equally... until I get to know them... and I have zero wish to offend.

For the record, I don't agree that being offended by the package of costumes (and the costume/thematic disparity) -which is what I and many others have explained many times- translates to being offended by that particular costume on its own. And I know that is where I am coming from. As far as I am concerned, there is not a single thing wrong with anyone using it, loving it, making it... none of that.
I don't think the combination was entirely appropriate, but yippee ki-ay... stuff happens!
Anyone and everyone is entitled to their opinion and I certainly wouldn't lord mine over anybody else's. I will let a company know my thoughts about it (or a friend or anyone I respect) so that they can take that feedback and consider it however they wish. However, unless it involves something insidious and/or leaves others requiring my help, it pretty much ends there (well, that and a ton of further typing, replying, explaining, rolling of eyes, avoiding the trolls and so on, haha).


Well, I haven't said it in those ways and I certainly am one of the first people to recognize (and attack them because) people far too often say stupid things and/or say things in very foolish ways.
However, I will say this...
I've learned, through much patience, what people say may not be translating exactly what they intend very well.
If someone is saying, "there's too much whorish female options", they very well may be intending the same thing that I've expressed - That they don't want only skimpy, frilly new options for females when the theme of the set gave rough and tumble for the males.
Whether or not they directly say whores or not, the meaning/impact that they place on that word may be different than yours or mine or Frederick McToodle's.
I don't get offended by how others want to represent themselves. They tend to do a great job of dismissing themselves without me having to do it for them.
I prefer to reply to people I respect, personally.

I should probably leave well enough alone (too late!), but my personal opinion on this is that someone who feels insulted (remember they feel as though someone did something that was insulting! Don't just dismiss this) very well may express something that you could feel insulted by if you don't agree that the original act was insulting.
In return, they are also free to not agree that you and others have any reason to feel insulted by what they think.
It goes both ways and swings back again for kicks.

Of course, I prefer to work from a position of mutual respect, but sometimes you cannot express yourself and/or stand up for your own beliefs without risking insulting someone else. You just hope it is justified when you believe you have to do it.
I do believe that the combination of the pack's content was poor judgment. It's not a case of forcing child labor to create the content for people, so I really don't care if no one else wanted to agree with me about my complaints and I'd hope no one really felt offended by my opinions.

I, personally, only feel offended by what others say when I feel as though I have betrayed my own good conscience.
If someone tells me that something I am doing is wrong (barring terrible things that follow with legal actions against me, haha), and I don't agree with them, I am not offended. Not from that simple act.
I'm comfortable with my own take on things to both listen to others (you never really know what you can learn) and to be relaxed with what I feel to be right.

My ramblings above this apply here as well.
No matter what anyone else thinks, you shouldn't feel ashamed for it. And I doubt you do. Unless (and I am NOT insinuating that you do) you agree with the complaints, but are repressing it.
So often, we get people voicing complaints, and people complain about those complaints... and then that leads to repeating and defending the original complaints... and then further replies... and, often times, the original complaint gets repeated far many more times than the original complaining person wished to mention their dissatisfaction.

In this particular case, it was not one person, not a collection of friends or a bunch of bandwagon jumpers who voiced similar feedback (including that the outfits resembled those worn by brothel workers). You may not agree with it, but it came from a wide number of individuals and you should respect their right to have their position and feelings and opinions.
There has been a handful of people trying to attack the negative feedback of the Gunslinger Pack.
There has only been a handful of us continuing to reply further, but there were many more who offered the initial negative feedback.
Some few of us are just silly enough to continue to reply...
Honestly, if we don't turn this into ways to solve problems with the economy, we may be wasting our time...

Haha!

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Good luck trying to build a house extension with finicky tools.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I pretty much had the same name on a server when I first started (forget which one), only it was all one word. It was deleted quite some time ago since I just had no further interest in the character.

Just picture him doing the pop dance emote! Go on! PICTURE IT!

That's right! It burns, doesn't it!!!

I think Bishop is about to pop a vein. Or an artery. I wonder what made him so mad?

I just want to point out, just for the sake of trying to be constructive, that I personally don't see any costume options added at any point in the game's existence that I want to remove. More options is always better, regardless of what the options are. My beef is that I want more options of a different kind and feel we've had enough "sexy" to last us another pack or two.

What I find objectionable in terms of the "attitude" that these packs exude is the apparent belief that women can't go even a single pack without getting something sexy and provocative, or else someone messed up. The problem with that is it simply butts out "everything else," and I still maintain that female characters have a LOT more themes they can fill than just "the girl." Having costumes to play "the girl" isn't the problem - the more the merrier. Not having costumes for much anything else is what's causing this.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Im not sure that person should be allowed to draw people in swimsuits or conversely that was possibly not his finest hour in terms of drawing .

I think we can both find bad artists that can make either gender look bad in a swim suit or tights .

personally even if he was wearing a full body stocking / tights which seems to be a traditional male hero costume from comics I still wouldn't want to see him on my character select screen .

so im pretty sure this has not made me 'see the error of my way' in terms of wanting the same parts that are strong enough for a man but worn by a woman .

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Honestly, I actually like that pic of Bishop. About the only real problem I have is his hands are too long (they look like they'd come down to his knees), but everything else works for me. I mean, yeah, it looks like he'll pop a vein in his heart any second now, but that's kind of the point, I think, at least judging by the caption box saying he should relax for a change.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

No, Dwayne Turner is an actual Marvel artist. But he might as well have graduated from the Liefeld academy of antanatomy.

Let's see:

He can't draw fingers since they disappear on one hand and are hidden on another.

The muscles on the left arm are not quite right, but look downright ordinary compared to the bicep on the right arm which looks like it's about four feet closer to the viewer than the rest of the arm, and the forearm becomes a slabby mess.

The X decal has no depth. It looks like a sticker placed on top of the drawing.

The right shoulder strap of the bathing top fades into nothingness.

There is inexplicable shadowing when there should be light hitting an object, namely, the crotch.

There is a remarkable volume of hair coming out of the back of the neck. Speaking of which, his hair is either heavily gelled or he has the power of Medusa since his hair refuses to blow in the direction of the wind that his head band is going.