Gender Equality in Costumes - A lack thereof
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-11-29 06:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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^ Common sense from Arcana as ever.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Lets start the female customer respect train by not assuming all women have the same opinion on the gunslinger pack. Clearly they don't, just based on postings in this thread. And the fact a woman made them, and probably wasn't specifically thinking they were the spearpoint of a war against women at the time.
There's no question calling the pack a "gunslinger" pack was an error. There are *some* players that believe having a costume pack whatever it was called contain a male gunfighter outfit and a more frilly female outfit was also an error, but if it was an error, and not everyone agrees, that was an error in judgment, not a case of misogyny. Not all women feel disrespected. Some men do. Lets try to keep some perspective. |
In hindsight, I probably could/should have picked a better thread title. This is less to do with actual sexism and more annoyance at costume part trending in-game. Just to clear that up a bit belatedly
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
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Yes. To both parts of this.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I'd rather see the judge it by the set, than a strict gender neutral that's being spouted off.
Truth is, there are some gender specific pieces they don't have available, that I'd still like to see made available |
We're not wanting a (somewhat frustrated) reaction of, "Well, if you don't think we're being fair with the female costume pieces, we'll just make ALL the costume pieces the same. Then they'll be equal, won't they?!"
No. That's not what anyone in this thread is asking for, and I'm honestly a bit surprised that's the vibe that we seem to be getting in response to the very spirited but polite discussion we've got going here.
The player frustration stems mostly from the fact that the very name of the Gunslinger set evokes some very specific and iconic imagery, but the set only delivers that same imagery for male and huge characters. That's the problem at its most basic. There are many of us who actually LIKE the female costume pieces. They're very nicely done, although I'm not a fan of all the heavy pre-tinting either. I've already put some on one of my existing characters. But "gunslinger" makes me think of leather jackets, rifles, boots with spurs, chaps, holsters and an aura with dust specks floating around; I get all these to use with my male and huge characters (well, except the aura), while my female characters only get a version of the boots.
No one is asking for all future costume sets and pieces to be identical for men and women. That's very important. I don't think any of us are asking for the "sexy" or "with skin" costume pieces to go away or get nerfed. I personally love having those pieces available, and it's important to have those options for male and female characters; heck, the very fact that those options EXIST for both gender characters it what makes it equal and appropriate. Some pieces only make sense for men (beards and facial hair come to mind first), where some pieces only make sense for women (high heels and bras are the first things that pop into my mind)... and that's okay. Getting rid of all the gender-specific pieces would be a HUGE overreaction on the part of the Paragon team, and I daresay it'd stir up even more negativity and frustration. Please don't reflexively jump in that direction.
Where the 'slinger pack went wrong is that we got gunslinger pieces for men and showgirl/saloon girl pieces for women. If we'd have gotten some jackets, pants, and chaps for women and some "tenderfoot" or saloon pieces for men, all would have been amazingly right with the set, whether it had been named Gunslinger, Wild West or Little House on the Prairie.
K
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I just flashed back to when I was 10 or so and used to watch that artist guy on PBS (whose name I just blanked on) talking about foreshortening. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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I'd actually like to jump in on this. David Nakayama actually covered this at the player summit last month. They went with a saloon girl instead of doing all the male pieces AND saloon girl for two reasons|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
Devs: You need to step up.
This is the moment for you to step forward and show your commitment to treating your female customers with respect. You must have female versions of things like a gunslinger outfit. This is really unacceptable. David, we know you know better than this. |
1. didn't have the time or resources
2. that would be twice as many costumes for women than men and that wasn't just fair.
And I rather like the women's clothes in the gunslinger pack. I just think it was horribly named wrong.
My previous argument for more male clothes still stands.
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There's people in this thread (and previous threads) asking for exactly that. People complaining that not only do women not get chaps and baron jackets but men don't get skirts and shoulder kittens.|
Originally Posted by Kurrent
No one is asking for all future costume sets and pieces to be identical for men and women.
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I disagree that there must be 100% parity and think it would be a huge waste of developer resources to give men the wedding dress parts (for example) but it's dangerous to say "no one wants this" because some people DO and any decision the developers make will result in someone complaining about how unfair it is.
What bugs me is the female Costume, some of the new stuff is starting to look like the female toons are giant size Barbie Doll's. Females toons Can get the same Cape's, Pants Coat's and Hats as there male's counter Parts can, just what I been seeing is not real enough.
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Actually, you have to work really hard to find a linkage between Magic pack and other stuff. Here is the actual timeline of releases according to ParagonWiki:
- Wedding (Feb 2008) -- women get both tux and dress
- Cyborg (Sept 2008)
- Valkyrie (March 2009)
- Magic (April 2009) -- differences in genders
- Science (July 2009)
- Martial Arts (Nov 2009)
- Going Rogue (April 2010)
- Origins (Nov 2010)
- Animal (Feb 2011)
- Steampunk (June 2011) -- difference in genders, first time corsets show up
- Celestial Vet Award
- Barbarian (Aug 2011) -- difference in genders, both with lots of flesh on display
- Circle of Thorns (Sept 2011)
- Halloween (Oct 2011) -- difference in genders, but no one cares
- Gunslinger (Nov 2011) -- difference in genders
- Fire and Ice
I may have missed a release or two in there.
To come to the conclusion that developers are "only" making sexy clothes for females you have to wait until the Magic pack to start. Then you have to intentionally overlook Science, Martial Arts, the Going Rogue pieces (Resistance and PPD), Origins, and Animal. We didn't get out first corset until the middle of this year, less than 5 months ago. In 5 months we got 6 releases. Only two* of them varied by gender, and one of those had easily as much male flesh on display. [*Halloween varied slightly by gender, but presumably isn't receiving criticism because it's harder to find a way to call it sexist.]
We don't have to speculate about whether when we get scientists we'll get half naked nurse chicks, because we got that and it didn't happen.
Tempest, tea pot, etc. Yes I want jackets for girls too but a little objectivity would go a long way. I wouldn't even be surprised to learn all 6 corsets were developed at the same time and just split up among the packs, since they all came within a very short period of each other; we waited 7 years just to get our first one.
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Really?|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I have lost count of the number of people who have used the word "prostitute" and "stripper" to describe these pieces. I don't consider that polite discussion for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is a person claiming to be pro-female while simultaneously using that terminology for a girl in a skirt cut too low for their tastes.
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Would you prefer the term Soiled Dove?
Or perhaps Painted Lady?
Personally, I don't care who's doing the art. I have confidence that Paragon hires competent and creative people.
But if the costume artist doesn't want his or her art to be compared to prostitutes, he or she shouldn't make costumes that exactly mimic the clothing of prostitutes.
This isn't an issue of one player's taste in hemlines. The art team went for a very specific look here and successfully nailed it (no pun intended): wild west prostitute.
Statesmonkey Sez: Lighten up! It's a game, for Lincoln's sake!
Also: Six years of casual play begins to look an awful lot like one year of hardcore play.
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Well, this was referred to as a "bordello dress":|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I have lost count of the number of people who have used the word "prostitute" and "stripper" to describe these pieces.
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If the clothes fit...
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Would it not be possible in the future to take the Gunslinger male/huge pieces and make them available for the female characters, while also putting together a male bartender type set and releasing them as two mini-packs?
One would be a repurpose, the other new.
Would a significant piece of the population truly be angry if female alts got a few more choices per pack by simply allowing the male pieces to be used by females, while still retaining the female only 'girly/sexy' pieces? As mentioned above, the Wedding pack did this and I don't recall at the time there being controversy, though that was a while back and I might be misremembering.
I know from my perspective, it wouldn't bother me in the least. I make characters of both sexes, so there's truly no loss.
The actual part that bothers me overall has been brought up already: the word Gunslinger evokes a very different vision to me than can be gotten in that pack for a female character. I could easily adapt and stick to a male gunslinger only, but many others are not going to feel quite so happy in having to give up their vision for a female, chap wearing, gunslinger.
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I've been quite vocal about what I think is wrong with this release and this direction and I get this argument. But at the same time I can't help but think, "Madonna wore her underwear on the outside."|
Originally Posted by Casual_Player
But if the costume artist doesn't want his or her art to be compared to prostitutes, he or she shouldn't make costumes that exactly mimic the clothing of prostitutes.
This isn't an issue of one player's taste in hemlines. The art team went for a very specific look here and successfully nailed it (no pun intended): wild west prostitute. |
And it was a scandal... at least at first. (engineered or otherwise) But then that underwear transformed. It became something else. And teens and twenty something women all over the English speaking world began to imitate.
So items that were associated solely with something else, something either morbid, wrong, sinister or salacious, can become adopted, subverted and become signatures. Remember the whole thing in Batman Begins about becoming an idea? I for one prefer classic comics. (forum name, duh. right?) I think there is room for this, even with the saloon girl. And I personally don't think it is a bridge too far into the scandalous in terms of skin. For me the errors of this release are about context and pairings.
Fusion/Fusionette not Fusion/Faultline.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Well, this was referred to as a "bordello dress":
If the clothes fit... |
That looks nothing like the pieces in this set.
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Actually, that costume works equally well as a saloon girl outfit, and saloon girls were not necessarily prostitutes. In fact, it may work better as a saloon girl costume because saloon girls were sometimes dancers and entertainers, and it actually looks more like a literal costume than normal clothes.
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Originally Posted by Casual_Player
Really?
Would you prefer the term Soiled Dove? Or perhaps Painted Lady? Personally, I don't care who's doing the art. I have confidence that Paragon hires competent and creative people. But if the costume artist doesn't want his or her art to be compared to prostitutes, he or she shouldn't make costumes that exactly mimic the clothing of prostitutes. This isn't an issue of one player's taste in hemlines. The art team went for a very specific look here and successfully nailed it (no pun intended): wild west prostitute. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, that costume works equally well as a saloon girl outfit, and saloon girls were not necessarily prostitutes. In fact, it may work better as a saloon girl costume because saloon girls were sometimes dancers and entertainers, and it actually looks more like a literal costume than normal clothes.
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Google Images more or less agrees with you. The fact that so many people make automatically make the leap from bar maid to prostitute really bothers me to be honest. Although the entire Old West costume era is more or less a a fantasy in itself, much like many popular ideas about the Medieval era.
Anyway, I certainly hope no one is trying to say Paragon Studios deliberately built an Old West prostitute costume into the game. Because that's what it's starting to sound like and that is time-for-medications ridiculous.
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it looks less like a prostitute then what we got ?
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
That looks nothing like the pieces in this set.
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Originally Posted by Deebs
it looks less like a prostitute then what we got ?
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I'll just say there's a threshold after which criticism starts to tell you more about the critic than the author.
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my oponion and im entitled to it , if you don't like it tough noogies . you showing pictures of your characters hasn't changed my mind on what we lost out on so we could get to dress as a bar wench /soiled dove / person who made a bad career choice in the old west .
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'll just say there's a threshold after which criticism starts to tell you more about the critic than the author.
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This is technically true but it does not make for good conversation. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but if you want it to have any weight or sway it should at least have substance and purpose. Otherwise you're just waving your arms around for attention and speaking in alphabet soup.
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Originally Posted by Deebs
my oponion and im entitled to it , if you don't like it tough noogies .
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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sorta like his constant posting of costumes going "its not a soiled dove set , look at my costumes "
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Originally Posted by Dispari
This is technically true but it does not make for good conversation. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but if you want it to have any weight or sway it should at least have substance and purpose. Otherwise you're just waving your arms around for attention and speaking in alphabet soup.
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I honestly don't understand the angst over some people using the term "prostitute".
I don't think anyone (well, probably someone is, but there's always at least one) is using it to make a negative judgment about the person who likes the design, who wants to use it, the character nor the artists responsible...
They are simply saying that the outfit relates to that iconic archetype from the old Westerns (right or wrong).
I agree that it may resemble a dancer/showgirl a little more. Possibly one performing a show about a fictional brothel worker... maybe a rags to riches story.
The point just about everyone saying this is trying to express is that an outfit based off of a dancer or a drink slinger or a prostitute is not as fitting for their action protagonist as the male and huge models' outfit.
If I have ruined any of my previous posts for some users by mentioning that the female model's outfit resembles a prostitute/brothel worker, then I apologize, because I robbed you of an otherwise extremely reasonable, intelligent and usually witty post! 
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Was I somehow unclear?|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Google Images more or less agrees with you. The fact that so many people make automatically make the leap from bar maid to prostitute really bothers me to be honest. Although the entire Old West costume era is more or less a a fantasy in itself, much like many popular ideas about the Medieval era.
Anyway, I certainly hope no one is trying to say Paragon Studios deliberately built an Old West prostitute costume into the game. Because that's what it's starting to sound like and that is time-for-medications ridiculous. |
Yes, I am saying that Paragon Studios deliberately built an Old West prostitute costume into the game, and is selling it under the Gunslinger misnomer.
It's hardly exceptional. It just adds to the 7+ years of sexual fetish gear rebranded as female costumes that the game already contains. You can debate about whether the costumes are demeaning or not, but denying their sexual nature is ludicrous.
All I'm asking for is a little honesty in the debate.
Sex Sells.
Scroll back up to that picture Alpha posted at the top of this thread.
The female costume depicted there is framing the model's primary and secondary sexual characteristics and literally wrapping them up in a bow. Do we need to talk about the purpose of the blush built into the face?
Paragon Studios is in the (admittedly T-for-Teen rated) sex business. They have been from Day One. Full stop, end-of-sentence, there is no room for debate here. Even the lightest stroll through the costume generator proves what I'm saying.
I'm just amazed it took this long for a thread like this to call them out on it. I blame the Gunslinger lie, myself.
It's apparently OK to sell sex in an upfront manner. But if you lie to people and tell them you're selling violence, and they instead find out you're selling them sex, they get upset.
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As for bar maids, saloon girls and prostitutes; I know that historically they were different. One of the pages I linked to above goes into detail on the point.
But CoX isn't selling us the Historical West. It's selling us the Wild West. The Wild West is a shared fantasy that is a wildly filtered perception of the facts of the times. And in that perception, bar maids, saloon girls and prostitutes are all the same woman.
I'm sorry if this offends any present-day bar maids. But a google image search of the term 'bar maid' tells me that the bars are using sex to sell their goods a lot more vigorously than Paragon Studios.
Statesmonkey Sez: Lighten up! It's a game, for Lincoln's sake!
Also: Six years of casual play begins to look an awful lot like one year of hardcore play.
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My apologies for not replying to you sooner. I hadn't checked in this thread for a while.|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
Much respect for your opinions as well, Knight. I know both of us have shown some uncharacteristic frustration on the forums recently, and I know your intentions are genuine when calling me out on this. Perhaps you're right. I don't visit these forums often, or see them as "my community". And I've got a low opinion of their signal to noise ratio.
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Thanks, Cap'n, I'm glad my words didn't come off as offensive or anything.
And honestly, it's "your community" just as much as it is mine and/or anyone else's, so I have no place telling you how you should or shouldn't approach things!
Still, yeah, I think that type of negativity that we were mentioning can easily turn on us (I'm sure it's happened to me at some point).
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Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
I hope you're right, but I suspect you're not. Very degrading terminology has been used throughout this thread to describe the female Gunslinger costume parts, and by extension those who DO enjoy them (and I'm not the only one who's noticed). Terms that stem from damaging biases and which do not at all describe my female (and male) friends (and favorite comic book characters hehe) who dress more provocatively.
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Again, as I said in another reply, I do not see people negatively judging other people about this issue.
I think that the default Female Gunslinger outfit greatly resembles the outfit of the Western (capitalized for the Hollywood fictional Old West, because my knowledge of actual fashion for the time is quite limited... although I did actually do a good amount of studying in the time period a while ago) brothel workers.
Actually, I was just thinking, I seem to recall seeing some documentary about modern brothel workers in Nevada where they may have worn similar outfits.
I suppose I can only speak for myself, but any time I've mentioned such a thing it is completely without any disdain for the artists nor anyone that likes (Hey, I LIKE the outfit... funny enough, more than the male's outfit actually) and/or uses the outfit and zero for the character in question as well (as, they certainly do not become a prostitute for wearing such an outfit).
I don't make those comparisons because the outfit is too skimpy. I don't even have a problem with skimpy outfits at all.
I'll just reiterate one more time that my negative opinion of this costume pack (and none of this is a big deal in the slightest! Whoopdy doo, some people don't like the way things were represented in an mmorpg costume pack, haha!) is that I find it disappointing and distasteful to offer the female models only that choice, compared to the more thematic for an action protagonist, and more utilitarian for an actual person of the Wild West, costume offerings that the male and huge were offered.
It just rings of something that I think many members of this community can relate to... girls who want to play outside with footballs or robot toys or GI Joes, but get handed a Barbie Doll and told to go inside.
Anyway, no big deal. Just something that some of us, obviously, all individually felt the need to express. I've seen a good amount of individuals coming to the boards to express this opinion. Some who obviously do not come here often.
I've also experienced a few very mature female friends' (and my wife's) reaction to this pack. I didn't paint my impression of it at all and each of them were rather displeased for the same reasons I have now provided. Some like it. Some don't. Some have an issue with it beyond the quality of the items (honestly, I have more of a problem with the quality, but that has nothing to do with this thread, hehe).
Again, there is ZERO wrong with liking this pack, buying it and using it.
Let's just let our individual opinions be known and move on. No need to attack other people's feedback. People are not coming here as sheep to express some negative feedback just for the sake of offering negative feedback. It's a legitimate gripe in their opinion.
And, honestly, when I look at the images of the two outfits, I can't not see the problem. That's just my take on it though.
P.S. All of that wasn't entirely directed at you, Captain-Electric.
Regardless, I hope it is all read as someone being respectful (with a bit of humor possibly mixed in).
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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LOL|
Originally Posted by Casual_Player
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It's apparently OK to sell sex in an upfront manner. But if you lie to people and tell them you're selling violence, and they instead find out you're selling them sex, they get upset. ... |
Sad but hilariously true.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Of course. Just because we like both sex and violence doesn't mean we don't mind getting something different than what we were told we were getting.
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Originally Posted by Casual_Player
It's apparently OK to sell sex in an upfront manner. But if you lie to people and tell them you're selling violence, and they instead find out you're selling them sex, they get upset.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
And as for 'Chainmail bikini', what I actually would have thought more 'Barbarian like' would be something akin to Skyrim's Forsworn Armour (WARNING: Large image) or indeed the fur and hide armours they have. I too would have been as disappointed with a chainmail bikini, because that would just be the the same point from a different angle.
Really, you are disagreeing with my 'point' while entirely missing it. I'm not attacking just corsets, or indeed any one costume piece. I am also well aware that people have long wanted them as options and still want the Carnie-esque parts.
I AM attacking that that is the ONLY option being given in places/packs where it's not always fitting. Steampunk pack, yes, that fits fine with the genre. Barbarians and Gunslingers? Not particularly.