Gender Equality in Costumes - A lack thereof
Not any time soon, not like within a year.
However do expect the Super Pack's to go live as designed, and the next costume pack to once more be cool for guys and stripper fashion for females. Because that's what Feedback means according to Zwill, we give them our feedback and they might act on it some time in the future. I mean it's only been how many months since people gave negative feedback on the 'slutty' witch costume and lack of sensibly covering cool stuff? |
I loved the witch costume! I've used the top that shows absolutely no skin many times, and I've used the witch top that shows skin. I've used the witch bottoms that show no skin at all. And I've never used the witch bottoms that show skin.
I'd use the magic jacket more if I could use it with the fur lining, and I'd use the witch sleeve on quite a few jacket options if it was an option.
The boots were utter failure imo due to the feet looking so huge.
And I love the witch tight gloves (tho I have used the witch gloves with wings on a costume or two).
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I'm not getting your point. People say they can't make a female gunslinger with the pack called 'Gunslinger' you show that they can make a gunslinger female with stuff that isn't in the pack.
That begs the question, what's the point of the pack then? You know the pack that is called 'Gunslinger' and should add 'Gunslinger' parts to the game, for making such things as female gunslingers. |
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If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
I think you mean to say, how many months has it been since a few got vocal about the "slutty" witch costume.
I loved the witch costume! I've used the top that shows absolutely no skin many times, and I've used the witch top that shows skin. I've used the witch bottoms that show no skin at all. And I've never used the witch bottoms that show skin. I'd use the magic jacket more if I could use it with the fur lining, and I'd use the witch sleeve on quite a few jacket options if it was an option. The boots were utter failure imo due to the feet looking so huge. And I love the witch tight gloves (tho I have used the witch gloves with wings on a costume or two). |
I think I mean to say since the Dev's last commented on the whole issue of 'Can we have something that wouldn't appear with the word 'sexy' written before it on an ebay costume search'.
They said okay we won't do this in future.
Cue 'sexy' steampunk and now 'sexy' gunslinger, okay so the work is planned that far in ahead that the costume devs are at work on their new project while the set is in beta. Okay understanderable, but the idea that the work goes on so far ahead that they are still working on the 'sexy' design ethos from the magic pack beggers belief.
It's alright to say once again 'We'll look into it due to the feedback' but another thing when the next six months worth of costume packs are already being made with the 'sexy' gender locked design ethos.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
We've been closely following your feedback regarding this topic, both here and on the Beta forums. Unfortunately Cheryl, the artist who worked primarily on the Gunslinger Character Modelling, has been extremely pressed for time creating new costume sets and as such hasn't been able to post directly on the beta feedback thread. That being said, the feedback and concerns expressed have been communicated to the art and production team.
To address a few points We've been trying to add unique and different costume pieces for female options for the sake of overall variety, however I understand some of the concerns being expressed here, as does the rest of the Art and Production team. Moving forward, where possible, we will be making more gender neutral/male pieces created for females so as to more accurately reflect the Communities requests. Because each costume piece has to be individually created (we can't CTRL+C, CTRL+V the pieces from male to female unfortunately ![]() If anyone took offense to our artistic choices, I apologize. It's not our intent to offend anyone. Regarding the pretinting of costume pieces: While pretinted pieces give the artists the ability to provide some very unique materials and add more visual interest to select pieces, we dont want to limit your creativity, either. Moving forward, we'll be offering both a pretinted and untinted option for all pieces which we choose to make pretinted. Thanks -Z |
I'm not getting your point. People say they can't make a female gunslinger with the pack called 'Gunslinger' you show that they can make a gunslinger female with stuff that isn't in the pack.
That begs the question, what's the point of the pack then? You know the pack that is called 'Gunslinger' and should add 'Gunslinger' parts to the game, for making such things as female gunslingers. |
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I tell you, it's rough. I want to boycott the entire pack out of solidarity with the wimminfolk, but the male costume pieces look really darn good. Haven't bought anything yet, though.
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I found a nice response from zwill in this thread and im going to take it at face value for now and see how it goes with the next few sets .
We know a knight set is coming down the pipeline , I figure I can wait and see if its another case of guys get to be a knight and girls get to be a sexy princess with a corset and thigh high princess boots .
And the pledge that they will (going forward) make non tinted versions of things they decide to pretint is icing on the proverbial cake for me .
so long story short as of this post im off to purchase the gunslinger/ soiled dove pack as I feel my voice has been heard and my concerns validated with a official response to the issue .
I can't and do not attempt to speak for everyone but for now im feeling pretty happy and have a wait and see attitude .
I think I mean to say since the Dev's last commented on the whole issue of 'Can we have something that wouldn't appear with the word 'sexy' written before it on an ebay costume search'.
They said okay we won't do this in future. Cue 'sexy' steampunk and now 'sexy' gunslinger, okay so the work is planned that far in ahead that the costume devs are at work on their new project while the set is in beta. Okay understanderable, but the idea that the work goes on so far ahead that they are still working on the 'sexy' design ethos from the magic pack beggers belief. It's alright to say once again 'We'll look into it due to the feedback' but another thing when the next six months worth of costume packs are already being made with the 'sexy' gender locked design ethos. |
The face is ugly (and considered as such by many in my experience). And outside of showing some skin, the pieces aren't all that sexy and look rather...well...not sexy. Now I love the jackets from the pack, but...meh on the over all "this is so sexy" comment about it.
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We know a knight set is coming down the pipeline , I figure I can wait and see if its another case of guys get to be a knight and girls get to be a sexy princess with a corset and thigh high princess boots .
And the pledge that they will (going forward) make non tinted versions of things they decide to pretint is icing on the proverbial cake for me . |
It would be nice if Zwill could put our minds at rest, that the next set won't be another 'cool for male, sexy for female' sets, but one of the promissed gender equal costume sets.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
I will bring the topic to development.
Realistically, don't expect it any time soon. Schedules are planned out months in advance and right now we're working on both Issues 22 and 23 and art schedules are quite possibly the most rigorous and time consuming of the lot, especially the character artists. Time to revisit previous costume pieces is not currently included and to do so would compromise new costume sets, villain groups, etc, etc...it has an extreme domino effect. |
Weird. I never considered the Steampunk pack to be sexy.
The face is ugly (and considered as such by many in my experience). And outside of showing some skin, the pieces aren't all that sexy and look rather...well...not sexy. Now I love the jackets from the pack, but...meh on the over all "this is so sexy" comment about it. |
The 'sexy' tag refers to well, go to a costume store or ebay and search for a costume of a particular theme. You'll no doubt find ones labelled 'sexy' they sort of adhere to the correct theme but are massivly more revealing.
As a short exercise, please go to Google Image search, first type in 'steampunk costume' and look at the pictures that come up, then type 'sexy steampunk costume' note how the second search is much closer to the set we recived.
Heck one of the first pics I saw had the exact jacket and half corset/bra that we get in game.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
Uh.... you do know we can complain and also not buy it? It's not an either/or thing.
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Really, I wanted to put the picture up hours ago when there was page after page of "why couldn't this be in the pack?!" but wasn't able to get to a computer that had it installed until a few minutes before I posted.
I'm not getting your point. People say they can't make a female gunslinger with the pack called 'Gunslinger' you show that they can make a gunslinger female with stuff that isn't in the pack.
That begs the question, what's the point of the pack then? You know the pack that is called 'Gunslinger' and should add 'Gunslinger' parts to the game, for making such things as female gunslingers. |
There has already been a redname reply to this thread basically saying, "we get it, you're not happy." That's about all you're going to get, so at this point just move on and stop specifically looking for something to be miserable about.
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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This is my Praetorian "gunslinger" ...
The only difference is that Sidhe Bang is ... Irish ... and didn't just ride behind Daniel Craig and Harrison Ford in Cowboys vs Aliens.
![](http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7840/groove1.gif)
I have been largely satisfied by Zwill's response, and other than some tangents have only been following along. However,
The point of the costume I posted is that you don't have to buy it and you can still make a gunslinger outfit like the one shown - something that several pages back was claimed as impossible. If that makes the entire pack pointless to you, then congratulations - you get to save points. If you like the pieces, buy them. If you don't, don't. But a large number of the complaints are "I want to make <this> and this pack doesn't let me" when you already can without the pack, mixed in with comments about how "sexy costumes are ruining the game!"
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This thread kind of turned into the "Gunslinger" thread, so I guess that is where my next response goes. Turned out the belt was available to women. It works with armor (and over a toga, for the Tex model), so Joan was able to wear it.
You probably couldn't make a female Gunslinger from this pack, but that is an issue with labeling and not the parts themselves. I never, ever use more than a few parts from a pack in a costume. The part models themselves are pretty good. The main issue I have about the parts is the pretinting, which was addressed earlier. Otherwise I was able to start on some character models that are decidedly not street walkers.
Now if we could get the bow without a veil and no tinting. Also the apron- cape thing is great, but really needs its pre-tint removed. It is very difficult to match to other costume parts.
I am excited about the Knight pack now because hopefully it will contain some better armor for Joan. Looking for something bulky that still shows the form underneath, preferably not in a breast-window way. Fairly specific and difficult request, though. If we ever got overalls for girls, I'd use "armor tights" with overalls over them probably.
I'm very disappointed that the "Gunslinger Pack" only includes what I would consider gunslinger attire for male and huge models but not for women. Women have to make do with what could be charitably called a "saloon girl with a heart of gold" outfit. Wow. Sorry, but that's just ALL KINDS of fail...
This topic seems to come up with every new costume pack. Every time we hear "we hear you, we'll do better next time" then... stuff like this happens.
My two INF...
-Buxley
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I have been largely satisfied by Zwill's response, and other than some tangents have only been following along. However,
The sample costume is a fine approximation. You can also make one just as good for the male costume without the pack. I don't recall the specific post, but I would concur that it isn't 'impossible', but if it was a comment on making something more 'authentic' as female gunslinger, then the intent of their statement may have been valid. Otherwise, then even the male options in the current pack are completely superfluous as clearly, we already had all the options we needed. |
The posts I was trying to rebut with the image were mostly about how people can't make reasonable gunslinger outfits for women because of what's in the pack. Some of the items could work, most of them don't - but that has no bearing on the fact that it's optional and the amount of anger over it seemed a bit excessive.
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Taking a step back to halt escalation. I apologize, because my last post on this subject was snippy.
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Firstly, you're right, what I wrote didn't have anything to do with clothing. I was responding to the side discussion about why there are no female members of some factions. If that somehow led to an interpretation that I was saying female clothes don't matter because men tend to die a lot then that is not what I intended. |
That said, I did miss that you were responding to that particular line of discussion, so I will apologize for getting on your case for it. I should have been getting on the case of everyone who was involved in that line, because it really does distract from this particular issue - one on which there is some involvement from the community team, with vague promises and all.
To sum up - sorry for jumping on you alone. Still, that'd be an interesting discussion - for another thread.
Now, I will be honest. The tone of this discussion frustrates me for the same reasons the "fridge" talk last week did. IMO quite a few posters have thrown the "sexism" accusation around like rice at a wedding. Then when challenged on it, they coyly remark that they are just making observations and any negative feelings that result are just reflections of the reader's insecurities. I think it's unproductive for a number of reasons even if politically I sit on the same side of the fence. Mainly because calling someone or something "sexist" carries a distinctly moral tone as opposed to a simply evaluative one. |
If you want me to pay money for a pack that says "men can be awesome Weird West gunfighters! And women can be sex workers!" I am absolutely allowed to point out that it's a double standard, that it explicitly sexualizes female avatars and can't be honestly called a gunslinger pack because it doesn't give female avatars a gunslinging option.
I am not a prude - I have no objection to sexy costumes. I can and will object to *only* sexy costumes being made available for female avatars. I didn't like it in the Wedding Pack, in the Magic Pack, or in the Steampunk Pack. If Paragon had only included a cool jacket and possibly a hat for female avatars, I would have been satisfied.
I don't have to give the benefit of the doubt for good intentions. All I'm worried about is results, and I don't feel there's much room for interpretation here.
To get to the point: when you point at some specific developer, or some specific poster, and say that his or her work reflects a poor moral character, you had better damn well make sure you are going to give them a chance to respond. It would be helpful to approach the subject gingerly too. Because despite insurances from the ringleaders that they aren't doing it maliciously, passive-aggressive lectures tend to net aggressive-aggressive reactions, whether they are posted or not. |
What you will get from me is pointing out a fact - that what that person said or did or created is sexist, and this is why.
Only with further communication and a pattern of behavior will I call a person sexist, and even then I tend to reserve that judgement for a time. But I have absolutely no qualms about pointing out that actions are sexist, and I feel no need to approach it gingerly.
Most of the time, I grant the benefit of the doubt, in the "Oh, hey, I didn't realize it could be taken like that" sense. And if any developer/creator/poster wants to engage in a debate on the question, I'm more than happy to oblige.
PS I want the Star belt for my Joan of Arkansas character. And if you ever call one of my female toons a prostitute, they will punch you in the face. |
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The posts I was trying to rebut with the image were mostly about how people can't make reasonable gunslinger outfits for women because of what's in the pack. Some of the items could work, most of them don't - but that has no bearing on the fact that it's optional and the amount of anger over it seemed a bit excessive.
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Speaking for myself, it was aggressive disappointment rather than anger. I made a female DP the day the set came out and I've been making variations of tech armored, solider, and an evening out outfit, holding a costume slot for the gunslinger someday. I went and filled that slot today with another armored tech look.
![Frown](images/smilies/frown.gif)
I have a male DP parked somewhere, he isn't getting anything out of the pack either. I am that disappointed with this output. I'll save my points for something else.
On the plus side, I am hopeful for future sets based on Zwill's comments.
I am excited about the Knight pack now because hopefully it will contain some better armor for Joan. Looking for something bulky that still shows the form underneath, preferably not in a breast-window way. Fairly specific and difficult request, though. If we ever got overalls for girls, I'd use "armor tights" with overalls over them probably.
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![](http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/siolfir/Random%20Screenies/nifty.jpg)
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The Roman chest makes it work a lot better than the bulkier Valkyrie ones did, so it may work for what you want until you get a better idea of what's actually in the Knight pack.
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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If you want me to pay money for a pack that says "men can be awesome Weird West gunfighters! And women can be sex workers!" I am absolutely allowed to point out that it's a double standard, that it explicitly sexualizes female avatars and can't be honestly called a gunslinger pack because it doesn't give female avatars a gunslinging option.
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You're leaving no wiggle room here for the devs, so you shouldn't say things that demand people extend wiggle room to you to make a point. Sticking to the area there seems to be almost universal agreement upon, namely that the gunslinger pack clearly did not deliver a gunslinger option for female characters, sends a clearer message than arguing over whether the actual delivered option is sexist, for which there isn't overwhelming agreement.
Put it another way: I would have been just as disappointed if the female option was a fully clothed and covered western school teacher. The issue is not that the option is or is not sexy, but rather that it is not a gunslinger.
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I also posted that I felt it was unrealistic to expect people to just make a gunslinger costume with what they already had available earlier in the thread, too - it's so much more gratifying to complain incessantly than it is to not give them your money and/or spend points on something that you don't like. But when something that you can already make is presented as something that people want to pay extra for, I thought that maybe people should take a step back from the emotion and start talking with their wallets instead.
I'm not getting your point. People say they can't make a female gunslinger with the pack called 'Gunslinger' you show that they can make a gunslinger female with stuff that isn't in the pack.
That begs the question, what's the point of the pack then?
You know the pack that is called 'Gunslinger' and should add 'Gunslinger' parts to the game, for making such things as female gunslingers.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.