Gender Equality in Costumes - A lack thereof
It shouldn't really be called a gunslinger pack because the female costume set can't really be genuinely called a gunslinger costume. That's as far as one should go. Going farther and calling the other costume "sex worker" is, whether you intend it or not, an insult to the people who saw that costume as anything other than that, and thought that while it was not a gunslinger costume, it was a nice non-prostitute costume option besides. Its an unnecessary slam, when its not relevant to whether the devs genuinely delivered on their gunslinger pack to both (character) genders.
You're leaving no wiggle room here for the devs, so you shouldn't say things that demand people extend wiggle room to you to make a point. Sticking to the area there seems to be almost universal agreement upon, namely that the gunslinger pack clearly did not deliver a gunslinger option for female characters, sends a clearer message than arguing over whether the actual delivered option is sexist, for which there isn't overwhelming agreement. Put it another way: I would have been just as disappointed if the female option was a fully clothed and covered western school teacher. The issue is not that the option is or is not sexy, but rather that it is not a gunslinger. |
You can quibble about whether the pack should have been called a gunslinger pack - if they had called it the Wild West pack, that would have addressed your central thesis and left you with nothing to discuss. I believe that the problems with the pack extend beyond what marketing decided to name it.
You can quibble about whether I'm wrong about calling the female costume that of a sex worker - prostitute, dance hall girl, saloon girl, floozy, choose your adjective. I'm not wrong in my central thesis - the pack treats female avatars very differently than male avatars. Male avatars dressed in the options provided by the pack are rugged survivors; female avatars are sexually available.
There are individual pieces of the pack that are worthy: the bow is not a bad option to have available if it was working correctly. I would like it better if there was an option without the veil, but that's neither here nor there. But there's no reason why a female wild west costume should have gone to the overtly and explicitly sexual - why not a jacket, maybe with a fringe option? Why not a vest with a star on it? Why should chaps be only for males?
I don't see why I need to extend wiggle room. They created it; I have issues with it and I have clearly delineated them. If you want to debate the name of the pack, that's fine, but that's not my argument.
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Feedback threads are useful.
We'll make changes where we are able to, such as the case with the COT revamp. In the event we don't act on it, we still store feedback in the collective data banks for future reference. Just because we don't make an immediate change to something doesn't mean we aren't listening (P.S. We are ![]() Sometimes things take awhile to change one way or the other. Sometimes they don't change at all. Sometimes they change immediately. It's a part of the creative process when working on live product. We are listening and taking your thoughts into account. Sometimes we just have different viewpoint, and sometimes those viewpoints change ![]() |
I like the game. I really do. However Paragon Studios seems to have some fairly unrealistic goals currently and we're seeing the results of trying to adhere to those goals. For the rest of this post, the "you" I'm referring to is Paragon Studios, not "you, Zwillinger".
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An open letter to Paragon Studios:
You have set a goal to produce enough for the market to have something "new" on it every week. However you don't seem to have allowed yourself any time to correct anything but the unmitigated disasters based on feedback.
Your customers aren't all idiots, some of them can smell a sub-standard "feature" a mile away. Some of your customers are patient and don't expect miracles (despite what you might think). However they do expect to be treated in a fair manner (problems: VIP Perks awarding in an obfuscated fashion, EU players not being able to buy year subscriptions, Central/South American customers having to deal with a less than savory company that doesn't carry a full range of products, etc).
There seems to be a "We know best." attitude pervasive at your company. Even when feedback is fairly uniform across a broad-spectrum of players, you go ahead despite the feedback and tell the players "just test it" when testing if something is "working as intended" isn't the point. When your players tell you that the intention itself is wrong, that is the point where you need to step back and open a discussion as to "why" it is wrong. It isn't a cue to push ahead and fix things 6-8 months down the road "when you have the time".
You need to allocate less time to throwing everything including the kitchen sink at us. You need to allocate some time or people to bug fixes and adjustments, something that clearly doesn't have enough time allocated to do well. If you feel the need to disregard feedback, explain why. You have had over 7 years with this live product and the times you got into the most trouble were when you didn't explain yourselves despite protests.
Again, I like the game. I've remained a steady subscriber since 2005. I've a lot of time (and money) invested in this game. I intend to continue to subscribe for the foreseeable future. Are you willing to invest your time in a manner that will make me want to continue to subscribe or will you continue to drive customers away?
Sincerely,
Snow Globe.
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I colored him green to reduce the shock value, but for anyone who thinks leather chaps and a harness aren't stripperific, take a glance.
[/URL]
Now you really don't want to know what happens when you turn him around.
[Not sure if this crosses the mod line; IMO it shouldn't given its around the same level of skin as the female costume. At least until you turn it around. But remove if necessary.]
I colored him green to reduce the shock value, but for anyone who thinks leather chaps and a harness aren't stripperific, take a glance.
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Edit: But I would have gone with the Barbarian bracelet gloves instead. Those are an option for males, right? Or am I misremembering?
Hey guys!
Gender equality is here!
I think I did something wrong.
*edit*
Oh god.
I'm sorry devs. I'll never speak ill of your costume pieces again.
Politics aside; a revamp making its way through more of the established NPC groups, where/when feasible, would be nice.
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I'd still be fine with the Hellions and Skulls not having any actual female members, due to the nature of the groups. Outcasts would be more likely to include women. Trolls supposedly do, since Superdyne is supposed to make you androgynous, but I wouldn't mind seeing actual female Trolls. It would also provide an excuse for some more muscular textures for women. The barbarian top is win right there.
And the Steampunk and Barbarian corsets are just plain better-looking than the ones in the Gunslinger pack. Why in the world would I want that stripy thing when there are already two corsets, one of which has quite a few variations, available? Three if you count the old-school Tops with skin > Leather piece.
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Women can now smoke.
That ought to count for some additional gender equality.
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I colored him green to reduce the shock value, but for anyone who thinks leather chaps and a harness aren't stripperific, take a glance.
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Plus, you used pieces from the barbarian set, and nobody is arguing that the barbarian set isn't stripperific for both genders. It totally is. Which is fine. Because barbarian = partial nudity. For everyone. Which is why it is fine.
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Personally, I felt the last two sets almost made 'old maids' out of the female toons. I'm half expecting the next period costume set to be 'flapper' gear.
Buuuut... the main reason I wanted to post in this attention worthy thread is to point out that the entirety of the game has a sex-bias. There's been a real under representation of females in NPC mobs that, IMO, goes hand in hand with the lack of female pet models for MMs. I don't think there's a single female police officer between Paragon, RI and Praetoria and most of the enemy groups seem to be a boys only club (Wyvern, Sky Raiders, GBs, Malta, Tsoo, Trolls, Council, Prisoners, Lost, etc). Even some of the co-ed groups only have one female type in the whole faction (Hellions, Freakshow) And I still fail to see why at least one pet per MM tier couldn't use the female model. |
I really would like more costume options for female characters as well. I.e a cowgirl as opposed to a barmaid. It just feels so sexist to me that female characters MUST flaunt their feminine assets in a superhero game.
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I love this game. I pay for four accounts for my family to play ranging from 3yr to 7yrs and have literally invested thousands in this game between subscription, boxes, expansions, costume sets, and extra turbine points.
I will pass on this set. There are a few pieces that might be useful, but seriously? Can we get past the 'all women are harlots' stage of costume design? Some suggestive pieces, okay, but all? Seriously?
You might as well make female MM pets. I am self-censoring the rest of my rant as there is no polite way to say it, but you can figure it out.
My visa is staying in my purse until further notice. You won't get another penny out of me for anything beyond subscription fee until you produce a costume set that is of good quality and use.
PS: No holsters? Worst. Costume. Set. Ever.
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Choices are GOOD. But for the sake of balance, bear in mind, most of the female players I know or have met in-game over the past two years (I mean provably female, owing to social networking, Vent or phone chats) have ALL preferred more skin, not less. Did they complain about male bias whenever new sets were released? Yes, of course. Yet, did they proceed to dress their characters like the sexified super heroines they enjoy playing? Yes.
![]() While that may sound like a double standard, there is a difference between women hating being objectified and enjoying looking sexeh. ![]() |
A perfectly reasonable question. My answer is, I don't know how they feel/felt about that, because I didn't ask. I mean, how would you have expected me to ask?
![]() "Do you like my costume, Cap?" "Yeah! So, would you look QUITE SO NAKED with more costume options?" Wouldn't go over well. Anyway, it would actually be nice to have more female feedback, because a different kind of male bias permeates this thread, and it's as out of tune with reality as any. |
And not just these two posts, there were some more...
Mainly, you came into this thread putting individuals' opinions and feedback down. Mostly by the old method of pointing out that forums-users are very much a tiny majority compared to the rest of the playerbase... And that those speaking up here were just a vocal minority.
We can only speak for ourselves. Frankly, that idea gets abused greatly by people. It is certainly no given that the percentages would be drastically different in opinions between forum-goers and the entire playerbase.
Then you tout your own empirical evidence of female players that you know.
So, our opinions are not good enough vs. the entire rest of the playerbase that does not visit the forums and the female players that you know and are now speaking for.
I am sorry, Captain, but that is just an odd way to take part in this discussion.
I've actually found this thread to be quite civil. It hasn't really devolved into a lot of directions that a topic such as this often leads to.
For whatever it is worth, I know quite a few female players of this game (personally/out-of-game) and they greatly contradict the reports you have given.
So what does that mean? *shrugs*
One other thing, based on some of the notions you have expressed...
Why would a female player's feedback be of greater importance than a male player's in this case?
We can all play male, huge or female, no matter what parts we're equipped with.
We all have opinions, tastes and feelings on the matter. Each and every part of this topic may effect each and every one of us equally.
Claiming that some or all (or whatever your point was in saying that there is an over abundance of male chauvinistic bias in this thread) really seems to me to be unnecessary at best.
I've known you to be of a rather reasonable mind and I can understand if you've grown to find these forums as dens of negativity, but be careful... Those feelings can easily betray you and make you an embodiment of it.
I think I can reasonably speak for myself and say that...
When I look at just the images advertising this pack...
![](http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/global/includes/images/news/costume_gunslinger_bundle.jpg)
![](http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/global/includes/images/news/COH_MTX_Fact_GUN_EN_small.jpg)
There is a major discrepancy in the iconic archetypes that those costumes bring to mind.
It's no more complicated than that.
If you're okay with that, you're okay with that.
I'm not slamming my desk nor making any legal charges of sexual discrimination... I just think they erred farther than I'm willing to let go without commenting on it.
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
Just because I am a male shouldn't lessen my opinion, nor the worth of my feedback, on any of that.
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
I would also like to see a few more options for male toons, like more shorts/kilts or more options where the guy isn't so ripped he looks like someone airbrushed his abs. (I play about 70% male toons)
Agreed on the equality or lack thereof. Jackets/chaps/hats for Women, corsets/bows/buttcapron for Men. I bought 3 items individually (roleplayer, the items worked on several characters) meaning I would still have enough PP for Titan Weapons when it's released, for which I'm thankful but disappointed, the only other pack that I've bought individual items from is the Party Pack until now and we all know how uhm.. Problematic that one was.
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I reject this notion of 'uniqueness', especially when it's corsets over and over again. (At this point, you could have made just one generic corset and produced different overlays for it.) Here's a vision of 'uniqueness': A fully covered gunslinger female, while the male model gets a bare chest with bandoleers. That would satisfy your vision of uniqueness, no? Probably not. And we all know why.
I also reject this false dilemma of either exactly the same or extreme gender differentiation.
I hope the art team finds the middle way.
No one here is arguing that the male and female genders are identical. Different body shapes, different body part proportions, different cut and fit for the same clothing type. Anyone who's ever tried on clothes made for the other gender can vouch for this. We're not arguing for the total elimination of female-only or male-only costume pieces; we're asking to simply have more choices and more options.
I thought that part of the intent behind CoH Freedom was to allow players who were willing to pay extra for more goodies (including costume pieces) to do exactly that, letting the new cash influx in excess of the monthly subscription fee pay for more artists and more resources to create more amazing content. Would I have liked to see an outfit for female characters more like Sharon Stone's character from "The Quick and the Dead"? Yeah, I would. But I kind of like Megan Fox's look in "Jonah Hex", too.
I'm one of the many female players who often will dress my characters in rather revealing costumes. I like having the chance to dress that way both in game and in real life. But I don't want to ONLY dress that way. Almost all of my characters have conservative ensembles and practical outfits in addition to their more risque outfits; therein lies the beauty of multiple costume slots. Again, it's about choice, whether it's for male characters or female characters. If I don't like the way a pair of jeans fits me in real life, I can always walk over to the men's section and try on a pair of men's jeans. I might not like the result, but then again I might (and I have before, more than once). A label that says "men's" or "women's" is no more binding than a boy named Francis or Lacey or a girl named Joseph or Michael. I'm not going to pigeonhole myself just because a store directory or a clothing designer wants me to, and we don't want the designers and developers to fall prey to the same thinking. It's not all about equality, it's about more options for both male and female characters. (And I suppose huge characters too, I just don't ever play them.)
Was I disappointed that I'm not going to get a real gunslinger jacket and chaps for my girl gunfighters? Yes. Would I be willing to trade in the saloon girl costume pieces for it? Well... I don't think so. Not just yet. A very important point that's not being mentioned is that several artists, designers, and programmers put a great of time, effort, and care into making these costume pieces we did get, and I think it's important that we acknowledge that. Yes, we'd love more choices and we'd love to have this and that, but the pieces we got are pretty nice. I'll certainly be able to use them for both existing and future characters, and I expect nearly everyone else can too. I appreciate all the hard work and hours spent on creating each of the costume pieces we did get, just like I appreciate the fact that devs and designers listen to our feedback and make adjustments in response to that feedback. Thank you.
Quite frequently our feedback in the beta threads does indeed effect real change, like with the planned costs to unlock the new Incarnate powers. When it became apparent that a huge majority of the player base was strongly opposed to those proposed costs, change was made. I believe that if adding a female gunslinger jacket and chaps to this set at the last second had truly been possible, it would have been done after the feedback on the Beta threads. It just couldn't be done that quickly.
To seize upon the poignant phrase, "looking forward," I think that it would be great to offer versions of new costume pieces for both male and female characters, but they really don't have to be identical. We don't expect them to be identical. But if a set gives us a really cool jacket or look for men, please try to give us the same for women and vice versa. A loincloth or new briefs could provide a nice male equivalent for an awesome new skirt introduced for the female characters. That way we don't lose the gender-specific pieces entirely, because it's nice to have them as options too!
Maybe it would be helpful to float around proposals and solicit player feedback on costume pieces earlier in the process, such as in the concept art stage, so if there happens to be a groundswell of player sentiment there could be time to learn from and build upon that input. It might eliminate some, not all, of the pleasant surprise experienced upon seeing the new goodies for the first time, but preemptively defusing some of the OMGRAAAAGGGGEEEEE!!!1!!! might be worth it.
I'll buy this Gunslinger set, even if it's not exactly what I was hoping. It's still a nice set. And it's just as nice to have the option to either buy it or not buy it, too. Go Freedom.
K