Gender Equality in Costumes - A lack thereof
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Zwillinger, please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm going to have to give you and Paragon Studios some rather unpleasant feedback. It isn't directly about the game, or even this costume set. It is more about how Paragon Studios does business.
I like the game. I really do. However Paragon Studios seems to have some fairly unrealistic goals currently and we're seeing the results of trying to adhere to those goals. For the rest of this post, the "you" I'm referring to is Paragon Studios, not "you, Zwillinger". --------------------------------------- An open letter to Paragon Studios: You have set a goal to produce enough for the market to have something "new" on it every week. However you don't seem to have allowed yourself any time to correct anything but the unmitigated disasters based on feedback. Your customers aren't all idiots, some of them can smell a sub-standard "feature" a mile away. Some of your customers are patient and don't expect miracles (despite what you might think). However they do expect to be treated in a fair manner (problems: VIP Perks awarding in an obfuscated fashion, EU players not being able to buy year subscriptions, Central/South American customers having to deal with a less than savory company that doesn't carry a full range of products, etc). There seems to be a "We know best." attitude pervasive at your company. Even when feedback is fairly uniform across a broad-spectrum of players, you go ahead despite the feedback and tell the players "just test it" when testing if something is "working as intended" isn't the point. When your players tell you that the intention itself is wrong, that is the point where you need to step back and open a discussion as to "why" it is wrong. It isn't a cue to push ahead and fix things 6-8 months down the road "when you have the time". You need to allocate less time to throwing everything including the kitchen sink at us. You need to allocate some time or people to bug fixes and adjustments, something that clearly doesn't have enough time allocated to do well. If you feel the need to disregard feedback, explain why. You have had over 7 years with this live product and the times you got into the most trouble were when you didn't explain yourselves despite protests. Again, I like the game. I've remained a steady subscriber since 2005. I've a lot of time (and money) invested in this game. I intend to continue to subscribe for the foreseeable future. Are you willing to invest your time in a manner that will make me want to continue to subscribe or will you continue to drive customers away? Sincerely, Snow Globe. |
But I've felt the responses we've gotten, when we've gotten them, have been... well, less the satisfactory, for one. Titan Weapons being excluded from Stalkers comes to mind (let's face it, claiming a thematic reasoning when I regenerate myself into hiding is dumb logic). And now this. I don't think anyone really gave positive feedback to the Gunslinger set. The male pieces may have been, "eh, alright, I can deal," but the female pieces are quite frankly, insulting. If you have this large of a disconnect with your players about something you've implemented, you have to reconsider what's being implemented. If the majority opinion is that, "Wow, this is borderline offensive and not gunslinger at all!" then do it over. Maybe remarket that set as a "Sultry Saloon-wear" pack. But don't try and pass it off.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Zwil, please take no offense personally as I mean none. But, in truth, most costume pieces CAN be copied and pasted to the new model. The thing is, every single costume "design" can be carried over. Just that in some cases, a model/frame/geo might need slight adjustment.
Case and Point: Female version of Male Gunslinger ![]() As you can see, by editing the .costume files you CAN make female versions of the male costumes. The only bump is that you have to find a pre-existing ".geo" file to closely match the male version. Now, in reality, every costume piece can be switched around if there was a suitable male/female/huge version of the ".geo" file. And once one version of the ".geo" file is made, you don't have to totally remake a new .geo file for every body type. So, actually, if someone there "Ctrl+C" then "Ctrl+V"'d each .geo and slightly edited it for the gender (ie. chest) then the work is 3/4ths done already. Would it be time consuming to make new .geo's for each new costume set? Hell yes. Would the players pay TOP dollar to have a little more work go into each set? Hell yes! I realize everyone there goes on to the next big thing rather quickly, but sometimes putting in that little extra effort is what really make the payoff that much more worth it. /2cents |
I'd love to see any Dev response to that. Is it REALLY that hard if a PLAYER can do it? Something feels seriously wrong with it if that's the case, guys!
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Now, to be fair, it didn't take much from the gunslinger set to make, but just outstanding work.
Zwil, please take no offense personally as I mean none. But, in truth, most costume pieces CAN be copied and pasted to the new model. The thing is, every single costume "design" can be carried over. Just that in some cases, a model/frame/geo might need slight adjustment.
Case and Point: Male Gunslinger ![]() Female Gunslinger ![]() Female version of Male Gunslinger ![]() As you can see, by editing the .costume files you CAN make female versions of the male costumes. The only bump is that you have to find a pre-existing ".geo" file to closely match the male version. Now, in reality, every costume piece can be switched around if there was a suitable male/female/huge version of the ".geo" file. And once one version of the ".geo" file is made, you don't have to totally remake a new .geo file for every body type. So, actually, if someone there "Ctrl+C" then "Ctrl+V"'d each .geo and slightly edited it for the gender (ie. chest) then the work is 3/4ths done already. Would it be time consuming to make new .geo's for each new costume set? Hell yes. Would the players pay TOP dollar to have a little more work go into each set? Hell yes! I realize everyone there goes on to the next big thing rather quickly, but sometimes putting in that little extra effort is what really make the payoff that much more worth it. /2cents |
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
Feedback threads are useful.
We'll make changes where we are able to, such as the case with the COT revamp. In the event we don't act on it, we still store feedback in the collective data banks for future reference. Just because we don't make an immediate change to something doesn't mean we aren't listening (P.S. We are ![]() Sometimes things take awhile to change one way or the other. Sometimes they don't change at all. Sometimes they change immediately. It's a part of the creative process when working on live product. We are listening and taking your thoughts into account. Sometimes we just have different viewpoint, and sometimes those viewpoints change ![]() |
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
I'm not hot under the collar about this at all, but I agree that this pack is a pretty extreme case of the topic in the thread - that both genders should be getting shared items where it makes sense. (I suspect people talking about corsets for men were being silly on purpose, but I'll go ahead and say I think that's silly and taking the concept needlessly far.)
@Zwillinger:
I'm also going to jump on the sidebar bandwagon about what I see as an outrageous conflict between production pipelines and player/customer feedback. If the scheduling is such that everything is too far down the line to change by the time feedback can be elicited, then feedback is pointless. You need to either solicit feedback far earlier in your pipeline (at a point where feedback can actually impact design), or you need to modify your schedules to account for possibility of feedback-inspired change.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
All of my new concept alts with the exception of two, who are using non-revealing classic tights type costumes, or set pieces that can have tights used to cover all the bare skin, are male for just this reason.
I adore the male versions of the concept packs, but the female version... can't do it. I don't do the over-sexualized concepts. Not even just cleavage. I mean, c'mon, seriously. With all the jumping around and bounding superheroes do, there is nothing short of superglue and duct tape that's keeping the female bits and bobs inside some of what passes for costumes in this game and comics in general.
Common sense, there should be some. Many women love wearing the revealing stuff. I'm not one of 'em. (In another MMO, I'm the person that passes on a nice upgrade because I refuse to wear the plate bikini/garter style armor that it comes in for a female. Bah. I kid not. I'll roll all male alts before I ruin my idea of who my character is with stuff they wouldn't be caught dead in.)
If females are gonna get saddled with overtly sexualized versions, where are the corsets and hotpants for males versions? Eh?
Unfortunately Cheryl, the artist who worked primarily on the Gunslinger Character Modelling, has been extremely pressed for time creating new costume sets and as such hasn't been able to post directly on the beta feedback thread.
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I'm split on "gender equality." I know how much work it takes to make costume parts. And the only actual options are:
A) Everyone gets the same costume parts, which means no more skirts/frill/lace or girly stuff.
B) Everyone gets the same costume parts, and then women get girly stuff, meaning men just get less costume parts period.
C) Everyone gets the same costume parts including girly stuff, so men get corsets and high heels that are a huge waste of developer time for incredibly narrow appeal.
D) Everyone gets close to the same stuff, but sometimes women just get girly stuff instead.
Logically, none of those options will please people. Someone will always be displeased. Someone will always feel cheated. So I don't have a problem with this pack as-is. I like the girly stuff (and I'm a girl myself). Yes I'd like some chaps to go with them, but I'm not going to outright call this pack sexist. We've had some of both packs -- heck even the OP points it out.
I can even see why they have a fascination with corsets as people pointed out. It's because up until now we didn't have any. So they're adding a bunch because it's an as of yet untapped area. It's possible you don't like corsets, but there are people out there who have been wanting corsets for years and finally get some options.
I can't even suggest how the devs could do "better" in the future. There's nothing "better" to strive for. All they can do is shift their current goal and disappoint a different subset of people. Sure, they could start giving women pants all the time, but enough rounds of that and I'd personally make a "Where Are My Frikkin Skirts At" thread.
Also, the barbarian pack encourages men to run around nearly naked and I've already seen someone playing a shirtless cowboy stripper in-game. Not sure what bearing that has on anything but it's worth mentioning.
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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An open letter to Paragon Studios: *snip* Sincerely, Snow Globe. |
This isn't about how well the pack sells or how ridiculous the female "Gunslinger" looks, it's about the breakdown in the development and beta process. It feels like marketing has taken over. Feedback is increasingly irrelevant, "filed away for future use" and we all know what that means. So what if the testers are outraged and raising very valid complaints? Marketing needs something to slap a price tag on and they need it by Tuesday! If it has problems, we'll fix it later... though fixes don't make money, you know. Marketing thinks that maybe you should work on the next shiny to sell instead. Next Tuesday is just a week away, after all.
Between the Super Packs and this, it's hard not to feel like there's a lot more interest in my bank account than in me as a player.
Lisa peeks into thread again...sorry I vanished yesterday, I work overnights and it was bedtime.
I apologize about saying everyone wants man clothing for their toons...I guess what people want is the man and female costume sets to be not identical, but similar.
And that is great. I was looking through all my toons looking to see who had a LOTG recharge and noticed that the majority of them are wearing jeans and a couple would look wonderful in the Baron's Jacket.....I just felt that calling what we got for females a slutty outfit was wrong. But, I did use a green and black miniskirt for the bottoms on mine, and colored the outfit in shades of Christmas green and red so maybe I desluttified it a bit and forgot what it originally looked like in the costume creator...I don't know, that was yesterday
Again, I apologize.
Lisa.
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
I have a couple of things I want to say on this matter that keeps on happening.
First of all, stop giving your costume sets stupid names. It's not a Gunslinger set if I can't be a gunslinger after buying it. Call it an "Old West" set if you want to be "historically accurate." It's closer to that anyway.
Secondly, stop tailoring the female version of a costume set from whatever version of prostitution is applicable to the given historic period or fictional theme. It makes the art team look sexist even if that's not what they meant to do. It simply looks bad to a casual observer who isn't privy to inside information.
Additionally, try to shoot for including costume pieces of a kind that we don't already have many of. We have enough corsets and dresses for females for a while. What they need more is jackets and pants. Try to add something that's not a duplicate of something else which already exists. The Sailor Moon bow is an excellent example of something unique - a "hair detail" piece.
Finally, treat male, female and huge models all with respect. Don't pick the "cool" costumes to give to one model and the "sexy" costumes to another. If need be, violate historical accuracy and theme expectation. More often than not, your customers will appreciate quality over accuracy.
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And before I go, please stop misinterpreting costume sets or trying to shove in themes that don't belong in them. A Gunslinger set is not the right opportunity to put in saloon girl costumes and a Steampunk set is not the right opportunity to put in Victorian school teacher costumes. All this does is breed deep, sarcastic cynicism. It makes me wonder in what way women will be screwed over in the next costume.
Think about what this has become. You're just about channelling a jackass genie. It's like you're trying to invent new ways to surprise those of us who play women by getting something completely different from what we thought we were getting. If we ask for a knights set, women will get bordello girls. If we get for an astronaut set, women will get brige bunny sailor uniforms. If we ask for a soldier set, women will get field hospital nurse outfits. If we ask for a demon set, women will get succubus pieces.
You breed this kind of cynicism. It's like City of Duke Nukem - men get to be cool and kick *** while women get to be strippers and prostitutes for the men to leer at and give money. I've heard the explanations, I know the reasoning and I even gave the Steampunk set the benefit of a doubt at the time. But my patience for getting an actual decent costume piece for women is wearing really thin. Threads like these will not go away. They'll just get more and more angry the longer this goes on. Do something about it.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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What's interesting to me is that all the people saying that this is a sexist pack designed by perverts didn't know until now that it was, mostly, designed by a woman.
I'm split on "gender equality." I know how much work it takes to make costume parts. And the only actual options are: A) Everyone gets the same costume parts, which means no more skirts/frill/lace or girly stuff. B) Everyone gets the same costume parts, and then women get girly stuff, meaning men just get less costume parts period. C) Everyone gets the same costume parts including girly stuff, so men get corsets and high heels that are a huge waste of developer time for incredibly narrow appeal. D) Everyone gets close to the same stuff, but sometimes women just get girly stuff instead. Logically, none of those options will please people. Someone will always be displeased. Someone will always feel cheated. So I don't have a problem with this pack as-is. I like the girly stuff (and I'm a girl myself). Yes I'd like some chaps to go with them, but I'm not going to outright call this pack sexist. We've had some of both packs -- heck even the OP points it out. I can even see why they have a fascination with corsets as people pointed out. It's because up until now we didn't have any. So they're adding a bunch because it's an as of yet untapped area. It's possible you don't like corsets, but there are people out there who have been wanting corsets for years and finally get some options. I can't even suggest how the devs could do "better" in the future. There's nothing "better" to strive for. All they can do is shift their current goal and disappoint a different subset of people. Sure, they could start giving women pants all the time, but enough rounds of that and I'd personally make a "Where Are My Frikkin Skirts At" thread. Also, the barbarian pack encourages men to run around nearly naked and I've already seen someone playing a shirtless cowboy stripper in-game. Not sure what bearing that has on anything but it's worth mentioning. |
Wonderful post Dispari.
Lisa
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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More skirts would not be a problem with me either. More jacket options would be much appreciated. There is a lack of both options for females.
Took some time to play with the pieces in the CC to push it and see what I could come up with. Feedback after first batch of images:
Feedback on the pack as live
Big Zoot, a cuddly Ben Grimm-like hero known for his tastes in fine menswear, gets a B-Boy street look.
Turbo Lass, a teen heroine with a range of patriotic and prismatic looks, gets a retro patriotic centennial outfit.
Midnight Gambler, an evil loner still living after having sold his soul to the devil over a century ago, gets new pistols and new sleeves. But the rest the male parts are just too corny for his bad ghostly self.
Malignant Avarice, a animist aspect of greed itself who has socialized amongst the elites of every age, gets a modest update to her Antoinette era outfit.
- Pretinting really gets in the way of mixing and matching these items. Almost nothing in the pack can go white (or very bright) other than parts of the pistols and the female shirt and puffy sleeves. The female collars, bodice and train are the most guilty offenders--especially since you'd think these parts SHOULD be able to go fully white.
- The bullet belt is broken. It does not track physique scaling at all. If you have a low physique setting, it hovers around your waistline. If you have a high setting it gets buried in your torso.
- The geometry on the huge version of the jacket is bugged. Look at the back of Big Zoot. The lowest strap floats above the rivets and the shadow in the texture. This is very clearly a bug.
- The corset/bodice from this pack is available in tight tops, tops with skin and shirts. The corsets from the prior packs, Steampunk and Barbarian, are not available at all in shirts. Why? Seems like the cupless corsets from those packs might work well with this shirt. Yet you didn't tag them for availability. Again, why?
- The mandatory striping on the belt & train bib as well as on this bodice with tintable back laces hinders the versatility of this piece greatly. If you go back to make another skin that is not pretinted and "dirty", also make one that is without striping.
- A solid version of the chiffon hair bow should be available, both with and without veil and with and without skull.
- No male boots with spurs without specific pants? Weak.
- No female boots with spurs with pants geometries? Weak.
- Not being able to tint the cuffs of one version of the male sleeves makes that part very limited in use. Requires a white shirt always.
Edit: Additional ideas to retrofit these pieces to ramp up versatility of this pack
- When revising a non-pretinted, non-"dirty" version of the bodice and belt/train, consider making one half the stripes accept costume color A and the other half accept costume color B
- Make a version of the bustle sans cape train. Make sure this piece is tagged properly to permit characters to use capes, veils or the magic pack bolero. Make sure this piece also includes all three textures: original pretinting, two color stripes, sans stripes. The bows on the back and side of this bustle alone, especially with a non striped bib would probably greatly increase both sales and usage of this pack.
"Looking Forward"
This pack more than any in a long long time strays from notions of versatility in individual parts. These parts, due to pretinting and highly specific patterning, simply do not play well with others. There were many no brainer small things that could have been done, several listed above and likely only 2 working days of production to execute, that would have added tremendous value and versatility to these parts.
Again this appears to be a problem of short sightedness or poor policy in terms of management.
If you can't provide us the players the range of costume options we ask in exchange for our cash, we will first try to approximate them as we can with a mix of old and new parts. The character creator, when it works well, is a tremendous creative tool and next to your "community" it is one of the biggest assets of this game. The many missteps in the Gunslinger release undermine that asset and some of your customers enthusiasm and hopes that it will only get more robust going forward with Freedom.
As Snow Globe and others have asserted, quality is key here. And versatility of any given release is one common metric your paying customers use to measure that quality.
And though I like some of the tweaks to existing character costumes above (I was also able to tweak 5 other characters which I may post later given more time), I for one will not be buying this pack at the very least till the obvious bugs are fixed. I am also considering waiting to see if any time is spent going back and cleaning up the pretinting that prevents light and bright coloration of a majority of the pieces in this pack. Looking forward, I think you guys really need to schedule some time to simply "go back."
I colored him green to reduce the shock value, but for anyone who thinks leather chaps and a harness aren't stripperific, take a glance.
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Now all we need is for the devs to release a Native American Themed set and a Construction Worker set.
Hey! Hey! Hey, hey, hey!
Macho, macho man (macho man)
I've got to be, a macho man
Macho, macho man
I've got to be a macho!
I don't really have much to add, since I already went into several long tirades in the beta feedback thread for the Gunslinger pack (which, by the way, is over 500 replies long: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=277846 ). Basically, the whole thing leaves me with a really, really bad taste in my mouth, especially since I was one of the ones who stood up and complained about the Steampunk Pack, was told "oh, they just did it this time due to time, but next time they'll add different stuff"... and then saw the Barbarian Pack and now this one... I need an "I told you so" button here.
And for those people who bring up the IDF and PPD and CoT sets, I've said in my posts in the beta forum that the "Trend Against the Feminine" skips those sets for which "feminine" isn't relevant (namely, full body armor) and for which the theme is completely divorced from reality. The problem is that they can't do "feminine" without doing "titillating". It is possible to create female clothing (as opposed to unisex clothing) without going into "hypersexed" mode, but they just aren't doing that anymore. |
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Damn, Sam. I want more pants too, but if you skirtblock me I'm going to have to get a knife. I rarely feel like I have anywhere near enough options and selection when trying to create dresses.
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More importantly, I want to push the breadth of themes we have. For the last, what? Three or four costume packs, women have gotten precisely the same one theme added to them - eyecandy. First they were the metal thong barbarian babes, then they were the fetish Victorian librarians, now they're the saloon girls whose primary job is to make cowboys horny. Women have gotten three costume sets, but they have gotten precisely one theme - sexy. In the meantime, men have been allowed to be barbarians, steampunk inventors, gentlemen and cowboys.
What I meant was that women have gotten enough skirts, corsets and thigh-high boots - enough sexy outfits - to last them for a while, and I wish they'd get a few badass outfits, instead. And to be quite honest... I doubt they will. I'm all but positive that no matter the costume set, the art team will find some excuse to put women in skirts, corsets and thigh-high boots.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I AM disappointed in this pack for much of Techbot Alpha's reasons, but not angry. Despite my efforts to make (mostly) less-trampy female outfits, my own experiences put us in the minority. For the last 7 years, its been clear that most players have been ignoring the more modest female costume options for things more... revealing. I'll admit to having a few short-skirted options for my female crimefighters, too... and if there are more "good looking" trampy costume parts than modest ones, that plays a part in user selection, too, but I still get the feel that even with all these options accounted for, the overall playerbase leans toward the same tramp-heroine depictions that dominate the comic industry.
I've resigned myself to that reality. The devs just develop toward what sells. I'd had great plans for a classic female gunslinger- very much a female version of Techbot_Alpha's male gunslinger outfit. Obviously, I'll be waiting longer. - Still, the benefit of a market-based system is you CAN develop for niches if those niches are large enough to sustain themselves. If a costume option has the potential to more than pay for its development costs, then its a viable development option, and you could even justify expanding staffing to cover it. (Or subcontract out to freelancers / between-work artists / modders aspiring for an industry break on a per-project basis ) I STRONGLY suggest the devs take a chance here. Take the time to make a female gunslinger variant similar to the male's and put it on the market.
Just give us a chance to prove that market demand IS there for something less trampy. |
Not buying the gunslinger pack, I'll say again in this thread.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
That's the major problem - in real life, women wear anything, but men limit themselves to a much smaller choice of clothing types, which means that there aren't reall any clothes that are almost exclusively male, but there are plenty that are almost exclusively female, and that influences how people make their costumes in the game, and how the devs make the costume pieces.
For example, if there are some cool pants for the guys, then plenty of people will ask for them to be available for the girls too - but if there's a new skirt for females, hardly anyone will ask for it to be made available for males too - or if there's a shirt for guys, the girls will want it too, but if there's a corset, hardly any guys will want it - which means that costume part "equality" actually requires women to get twice as many parts as men, so something like the Gunslinger pack would need one male gunslinger outfit, one female gunslinger outfit, and the saloon girl outfit - or if there's a medieval pack, they'd need to make one knight outfit for men, one knight outfit for women, oplus a damsel/princess outfit for the women. The lack of female versions of some of the male costume parts are probably a misguided attempt at being fair, and giving both genders an even amount of parts with each pack. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Heck, they obviously didn't "err on the side of caution" with this set (or most of the female pieces), so why should they suddenly do it with other things? If the "potential" for the abuse of the emotes (the main ones being collapse, swoon, and pushups that were mentioned to me at the Pummit by other players) is so prevalent, then why not just remove the option instead of hiding behind excuses?
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Why? Why? Why? I don't understand.
I can't believe that.
That's like writing your own porno in the form of a stick-figure flick book.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04