Gender Equality in Costumes - A lack thereof

If the Gunslinger pack is any indication, the only titan weapon that women get to use will be a stripper pole.

But if the other Titan weapons are an indication, there'll be someone tied to it and screaming as you beat your enemies down with it. So it's all good.

TANGENT...
Okay, someone should go suggest a pole with a person tied to the end of it in the Titan Weapon Model suggestion thread...

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

To be fair, that would be sort of awesome.

*Adds her name to the bottom*

You know, I failed to mention this before, but I agree as well.
Seriously, I am sensing a quantity over quality approach right now. It doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I'm just me, so who knows if I am right or not, but I like and respect this company enough to mention it (as I have in the Super Pack thread as well).

Nice letter, Snow Globe.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Steam punk (despite the texture/tint problems) and Barbarian were the last costume sets I purchased. Barbarian was well balanced by archtype, lots of skin, but it fit so no problem. I've bought two pieces (shoulders, belt) from the COT set and the rest didn't suit me but seemed okay.

The celestial set is just plain clumsy. The textures don't even match within the set, don't match hardly anything outside of it, and the tinting screws color matching all to hell. That set taught me to look before I leap, it was the last time I'll ever buy something on trust.

I was unhappy with the archtype balance for magic, which at least was well done artistically, but am more unhappy with the balance for this one. At least magic had the option for full body coverage if wanted and great witches hats. This set... that's not a cowgirl - that's a saloon girl. In modern day terms she'd be working a corner somewhere or at the Mustang Ranch.

When I read the announcement I was excited. Then I saw the pictures and was disappointed, wishing I could have the male's outfit for my female toon. Then I took a closer look and got mad.

I was ready to buy more tp to get this until I actually SAW it. The only piece I can see using is the belt. I wonder how many other players feel the same?

PS: Great letter Snow Globe.

I grabbed the coat and chestpiece for the guys, and the hair for the girls (because I've wanted that hair since they put it in the steampunk pack, but without the hat).
Other than that....nope, nothing I wanted, and the bustier doesn't clip right unless you have med to large boobs (and almost all of my toons are A/B cups for my females) so I didn't get it.

I sense treason

Much respect for your opinions as well, Knight. I know both of us have shown some uncharacteristic frustration on the forums recently, and I know your intentions are genuine when calling me out on this. Perhaps you're right. I don't visit these forums often, or see them as "my community". And I've got a low opinion of their signal to noise ratio.

I bowed out of the discussion earlier in the day because I felt like another forum poster and myself were beginning to have a battle of personalities or wits. As a matter of principle in contentious threads, I try to debate the issues at hand, and resist the urge to drag personalities into the argument. The moment I referenced TrueGentleman directly with regards to male biases, I broke my own rules. Those rules are there to keep me from the pitfalls that this very post illustrates, veering away from the bigger picture to pursue self-serving goals (like defending my own image or slinging mud at someone else)-- things that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

I DO hope I accomplished something by eliciting responses from a few female posters. I often encourage people to speak up who otherwise wouldn't (a category I fall into on the forums), and I prefer, in no small way, for people to speak for themselves. I'm not sure that I'm speaking for female players in describing non-judgmental observations of their costume choices. But you're probably correct if you think that I shouldn't have attempted that either.

I hope you're right, but I suspect you're not. Very degrading terminology has been used throughout this thread to describe the female Gunslinger costume parts, and by extension those who DO enjoy them (and I'm not the only one who's noticed). Terms that stem from damaging biases and which do not at all describe my female (and male) friends (and favorite comic book characters hehe) who dress more provocatively.

i have a slight issue with this defense in that for weeks female posters have been posting regarding their feelings on the pieces for female avatars in the gunslinger pack. Especially in the beta forums. For the most part all you did was get them to repeat themselves, sometimes for the umpteenth time, to address your apparent assertion that real women have no issues with the gender disparity in new costume pieces. Now it's understandable that you might not read the beta forums, or even the earlier posts in this very thread, but you're mostly giving yourself credit for making women repeat themselves because you weren't reading the first (and possibly second, third, fourth, etc.) time they posted. To me it seemed almost like you were simply ignoring female posts that didn't agree with your position prior to now, but really i think it's more likely you simply hadn't read them. i hope.

Most of your replies regarding the Gunslinger Pack reminded me of this comic.

Oh, and i just thought of how to rename the pack to fit the actual selections provided: Call it the Gunslinger/Ginslinger Pack.

Mind you, you still have a design that cups, highlights and draws attention to critical parts of the female anatomy. And it's still a skin-tight affair with high-heeled boots and opera gloves, emphasising sexiness while the guys instead get a practical and pretty durned badass look.

Saying that skin is the issue there is like saying that full-body spray-on latex should be appropriate for everyday wear, because it covers all the important bits.

I see what you're saying, but the point is not actually how much skin is being shown, it is the style and purpose thereof.

When male characters are designed showing a lot of skin, it is almost always to make them look rugged, wild, manly, powerful etc. Artists like Boris Vallejo illustrate plenty of nearly-naked men, but they're not designed to be sexy to women; they are an uber-macho ideal that men expect women "should" be attracted to (despite the fact that in general, women prefer guys who are fit but don't look like condoms stuffed with walnuts). In other words, skin exposure on male characters is (generally) aimed at guys who wish they were hyper-macho badasses.

OTOH, when female characters are designed showing a lot of skin, it is almost always because they are supposed to titillate viewers. It is extremely rare that a scantily-clad woman is dressed that way to make her seem cooler, tougher, or more powerful - she might still be a badass, but that's amost never the point of the design*. In other words, skin exposure on female characters is (generally) aimed at guys who wish they got to look at more boobies.

Now, typically both men and women actively like to see sexy female characters in popular media. However, while women also like sexy men, male viewers don't - there's even a trend of feeling a bit threatened or disdainful toward attractive male characters, and a preference for more primitive, ugly-but-manly macho ideals. Outside of anime/manga (which shouldn't be overlooked, since unlike western comics it has a significant female market segment), attractive female characters are highly desired, but attractive male characters are only somewhat desired, and otherwise merely tolerated.

Ergo, due to the inherent difference in how male and female nudity is treated, and the inherent similarity in whose benefit they are for, "showing skin" is not equivalent between male and female characters. Showing skin on either gender fundamentally suggests traditional gender roles - it is typically done to make the men seem more powerful, and the women more sexualised - and therefore they both actually cater to the same preference, not to opposites.

Besides which, males can always show more skin "real estate" without it being sexual, because a bare male chest is not viewed as an inherently sexual thing. The bare female chest, except in some older cultures that are certainly not the audience of this game, absolutely is. It's perhaps unfortunate that this is so, but it's undeniably a fact of how western society views the male and female forms.

So yeah. The barbarian pack may offer less actualy clothing for both genders, but that's certainly not equalising the gender roles - if anything, it's reinforcing them.

(*At best you get interesting quirks like the version of Power Girl who was charmingly shameless; at worst you get blatant hypocrisy like the version of Power Girl who ******* about chavinism when any guy dared to look at her giant cleavage window. Either way, the costume came about purely for sex appeal.)

Dangit, my skanky crossdressing shapeshifter trap (the only place I ever used the female magic pack components) would have loved those.

Oh man, I love that costume and name.

MY TWO CENTS: I have enough corsets now, guys. I'm ready for something else for my girls tops.

The cigarette is appreciated, though, My cop, she looks great with it. And I liked the poofy trail thing butt belt.

EDIT: I'm so ripping this off.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Stupid pre-tinting wants to stand in the way of this.

This!!! So much this!!!

I don't mind sexy girl outfits, but in the Gunslinger pack I really expected to be able to make a female gunslinger! This is just not it!

And I'm STILL pissed off that females didn't get the Baron coat.

Barbarian Woman: "It is sorcery most foul!! As soon as I arrived in this world, my...chest got bigger and my boots grew these spiky...things!"

as a note I do not mean unisex as "the exact same thing" but very similar pieces appropriately adjusted for each model.

Zwil,
Where as I appreciate that the message has been passed along to the art team. I want to make sure the message is heard. We are not saying we don't want special, "unique" or even "sexy" pieces, what we are saying is we want OPTIONS. Give us balance, the quote before illustrates how, and you could release them as two separate packs. I want both, and am willing to pay for both, if the quality is good ( and it usually is). I am pretty sure the men would like some "unique" pieces as well, the prince theme would give an opportunity for a long tunic, puffy sleeves, etc. I look forward to seeing this moving forward. I am super excited for the idea of a space themed pack.


edit
I would love to use the gunslinger2 belt with the steampunk jackets, but that's just a wish

Unfortunately this is a problem with Costume items, because unlike other issues it seems that once they have gone out they won't be changed.

Personally I believe Paragon Studios needs to address the issues raised by the costume packs IN those costume packs. If that fact that a costume item being released means the pre-tinting cannot be removed then I believe you need to add a 2 colour version.

It is great that Paragon Studios has taken the decision to have new stuff on the market each week and I am sure it will be beneficial in the long run. However it currently feels like it is having a negative impact on quality.