Originally Posted by CBeet
![]() I bought 3 items individually (roleplayer, the items worked on several characters) meaning I would still have enough PP for Titan Weapons when it's released
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Gender Equality in Costumes - A lack thereof
true firemoth is a real female
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
But if the other Titan weapons are an indication, there'll be someone tied to it and screaming as you beat your enemies down with it. So it's all good.
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Okay, someone should go suggest a pole with a person tied to the end of it in the Titan Weapon Model suggestion thread...
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Zwillinger, please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm going to have to give you and Paragon Studios some rather unpleasant feedback. It isn't directly about the game, or even this costume set. It is more about how Paragon Studios does business.
I like the game. I really do. However Paragon Studios seems to have some fairly unrealistic goals currently and we're seeing the results of trying to adhere to those goals. For the rest of this post, the "you" I'm referring to is Paragon Studios, not "you, Zwillinger". --------------------------------------- An open letter to Paragon Studios: You have set a goal to produce enough for the market to have something "new" on it every week. However you don't seem to have allowed yourself any time to correct anything but the unmitigated disasters based on feedback. Your customers aren't all idiots, some of them can smell a sub-standard "feature" a mile away. Some of your customers are patient and don't expect miracles (despite what you might think). However they do expect to be treated in a fair manner (problems: VIP Perks awarding in an obfuscated fashion, EU players not being able to buy year subscriptions, Central/South American customers having to deal with a less than savory company that doesn't carry a full range of products, etc). There seems to be a "We know best." attitude pervasive at your company. Even when feedback is fairly uniform across a broad-spectrum of players, you go ahead despite the feedback and tell the players "just test it" when testing if something is "working as intended" isn't the point. When your players tell you that the intention itself is wrong, that is the point where you need to step back and open a discussion as to "why" it is wrong. It isn't a cue to push ahead and fix things 6-8 months down the road "when you have the time". You need to allocate less time to throwing everything including the kitchen sink at us. You need to allocate some time or people to bug fixes and adjustments, something that clearly doesn't have enough time allocated to do well. If you feel the need to disregard feedback, explain why. You have had over 7 years with this live product and the times you got into the most trouble were when you didn't explain yourselves despite protests. Again, I like the game. I've remained a steady subscriber since 2005. I've a lot of time (and money) invested in this game. I intend to continue to subscribe for the foreseeable future. Are you willing to invest your time in a manner that will make me want to continue to subscribe or will you continue to drive customers away? Sincerely, Snow Globe. |
Seriously, I am sensing a quantity over quality approach right now. It doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I'm just me, so who knows if I am right or not, but I like and respect this company enough to mention it (as I have in the Super Pack thread as well).
Nice letter, Snow Globe.
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
No they don't, but the problem is not one is talking about that [heck I don't see the Steam punk as being terribly down that road.
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The celestial set is just plain clumsy. The textures don't even match within the set, don't match hardly anything outside of it, and the tinting screws color matching all to hell. That set taught me to look before I leap, it was the last time I'll ever buy something on trust.
I was unhappy with the archtype balance for magic, which at least was well done artistically, but am more unhappy with the balance for this one. At least magic had the option for full body coverage if wanted and great witches hats. This set... that's not a cowgirl - that's a saloon girl. In modern day terms she'd be working a corner somewhere or at the Mustang Ranch.
When I read the announcement I was excited. Then I saw the pictures and was disappointed, wishing I could have the male's outfit for my female toon. Then I took a closer look and got mad.
I was ready to buy more tp to get this until I actually SAW it. The only piece I can see using is the belt. I wonder how many other players feel the same?
PS: Great letter Snow Globe.
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/517513781597443/
Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.
Steam punk (despite the texture/tint problems) and Barbarian were the last costume sets I purchased. Barbarian was well balanced by archtype, lots of skin, but it fit so no problem. I've bought two pieces (shoulders, belt) from the COT set and the rest didn't suit me but seemed okay.
I was unhappy with the archtype balance for magic, which at least was well done artistically, but am more unhappy with the balance for this one. At least magic had the option for full body coverage if wanted and great witches hats. This set... that's not a cowgirl - that's a saloon girl. In modern day terms she'd be working a corner somewhere or at the Mustang Ranch. When I read the announcement I was excited. Then I saw the pictures and was disappointed, wishing I could have the male's outfit for my female toon. Then I took a closer look and got mad. I was ready to buy more tp to get this until I actually SAW it. The only piece I can see using is the belt. I wonder how many other players feel the same? |
Other than that....nope, nothing I wanted, and the bustier doesn't clip right unless you have med to large boobs (and almost all of my toons are A/B cups for my females) so I didn't get it.
I've known you to be of a rather reasonable mind and I can understand if you've grown to find these forums as dens of negativity, but be careful... Those feelings can easily betray you and make you an embodiment of it.
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I bowed out of the discussion earlier in the day because I felt like another forum poster and myself were beginning to have a battle of personalities or wits. As a matter of principle in contentious threads, I try to debate the issues at hand, and resist the urge to drag personalities into the argument. The moment I referenced TrueGentleman directly with regards to male biases, I broke my own rules. Those rules are there to keep me from the pitfalls that this very post illustrates, veering away from the bigger picture to pursue self-serving goals (like defending my own image or slinging mud at someone else)-- things that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic.
Mainly, you came into this thread putting individuals' opinions and feedback down. Mostly by the old method of pointing out that forums-users are very much a tiny majority compared to the rest of the playerbase... And that those speaking up here were just a vocal minority.
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Then you tout your own empirical evidence of female players that you know. So, our opinions are not good enough vs. the entire rest of the playerbase that does not visit the forums and the female players that you know and are now speaking for.
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I hope you're right, but I suspect you're not. Very degrading terminology has been used throughout this thread to describe the female Gunslinger costume parts, and by extension those who DO enjoy them (and I'm not the only one who's noticed). Terms that stem from damaging biases and which do not at all describe my female (and male) friends (and favorite comic book characters hehe) who dress more provocatively.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
It's funny that back in the Dual Pistols beta, I was able to make a female (zombie) gunslinger just fine with the legacy pieces already available.
I can only imagine how she'd look in that saloon girl gear with that horribly rotted face of hers and minimum breast-slider breasts.
Bwahahahaha! Yeah, the saloon girl stuff is ****, but it has just given me a horribly demented idea....
![](http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/KojiroJames/neversurrendersig.jpg)
I DO hope I accomplished something by eliciting responses from a few female posters. I often encourage people to speak up who otherwise wouldn't (a category I fall into on the forums), and I prefer, in no small way, for people to speak for themselves. I'm not sure that I'm speaking for female players in describing non-judgmental observations of their costume choices. But you're probably correct if you think that I shouldn't have attempted that either.
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Most of your replies regarding the Gunslinger Pack reminded me of this comic.
Oh, and i just thought of how to rename the pack to fit the actual selections provided: Call it the Gunslinger/Ginslinger Pack.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
I gave a lot of feedback during the Issue 21 beta, but have not stepped foot in the beta forums since (a consequence of time, not desire).
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
I'm surprised there isn't more love for the female hair. It's not gunslinger-y but it is a great piece IMO, and accepts two colors. I used it for my Plant Dominator, "Lotus Operandi."
Below are two very different takes on slinger-ish characters. Note that this set doesn't come with a skirt and the default is no leggings, but putting them on (because the set is in layers) significantly reduces the amount of skin on display. I'd still like a jacket, but really the "you're forced to make a prostitute stuff" needs to stop. I'm not a big fan of the thigh high boots personally, but that goes for any of them. I wish there was a big hulking pair of boots like the Praetorian police size in bulkiness, but I worked what I had from other sets.
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Im sorry but Im not buying the "We so busy we can not make the fixes-add ons bases on player base feedback".
I know you guys work a lot in advance but...
When Steampunk pack came out we made clear our point:
More neutral pieces, no pre-tint, 2 colour choices for everything, etc...
Same feedback was made for Barbarian... We were ignored too.
Actually, no I don't think it's a trend, and you also manipulated the Witch Booster to get what you want on it.
Take those witch top pieces and use the TIGHT option. That way you don't show all that skin you're saying they're doing. |
Saying that skin is the issue there is like saying that full-body spray-on latex should be appropriate for everyday wear, because it covers all the important bits.
Barbarian wasn't much different from the males, in that they had nothing but show skin pieces as well.
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When male characters are designed showing a lot of skin, it is almost always to make them look rugged, wild, manly, powerful etc. Artists like Boris Vallejo illustrate plenty of nearly-naked men, but they're not designed to be sexy to women; they are an uber-macho ideal that men expect women "should" be attracted to (despite the fact that in general, women prefer guys who are fit but don't look like condoms stuffed with walnuts). In other words, skin exposure on male characters is (generally) aimed at guys who wish they were hyper-macho badasses.
OTOH, when female characters are designed showing a lot of skin, it is almost always because they are supposed to titillate viewers. It is extremely rare that a scantily-clad woman is dressed that way to make her seem cooler, tougher, or more powerful - she might still be a badass, but that's amost never the point of the design*. In other words, skin exposure on female characters is (generally) aimed at guys who wish they got to look at more boobies.
Now, typically both men and women actively like to see sexy female characters in popular media. However, while women also like sexy men, male viewers don't - there's even a trend of feeling a bit threatened or disdainful toward attractive male characters, and a preference for more primitive, ugly-but-manly macho ideals. Outside of anime/manga (which shouldn't be overlooked, since unlike western comics it has a significant female market segment), attractive female characters are highly desired, but attractive male characters are only somewhat desired, and otherwise merely tolerated.
Ergo, due to the inherent difference in how male and female nudity is treated, and the inherent similarity in whose benefit they are for, "showing skin" is not equivalent between male and female characters. Showing skin on either gender fundamentally suggests traditional gender roles - it is typically done to make the men seem more powerful, and the women more sexualised - and therefore they both actually cater to the same preference, not to opposites.
Besides which, males can always show more skin "real estate" without it being sexual, because a bare male chest is not viewed as an inherently sexual thing. The bare female chest, except in some older cultures that are certainly not the audience of this game, absolutely is. It's perhaps unfortunate that this is so, but it's undeniably a fact of how western society views the male and female forms.
So yeah. The barbarian pack may offer less actualy clothing for both genders, but that's certainly not equalising the gender roles - if anything, it's reinforcing them.
(*At best you get interesting quirks like the version of Power Girl who was charmingly shameless; at worst you get blatant hypocrisy like the version of Power Girl who ******* about chavinism when any guy dared to look at her giant cleavage window. Either way, the costume came about purely for sex appeal.)
The Girl Your Mother Warned You About
![](http://www.arts-eclectic.com/fox/stuff/userbar_fls.png)
![](http://www.arts-eclectic.com/fox/stuff/userbar_gimp.png)
![](http://www.arts-eclectic.com/fox/stuff/userbar_traps.png)
Primary Virtue ~ Secondary Guardian
This is my Praetorian "gunslinger" ...
[image snipped] The only difference is that Sidhe Bang is ... Irish ... and didn't just ride behind Daniel Craig and Harrison Ford in Cowboys vs Aliens. |
MY TWO CENTS: I have enough corsets now, guys. I'm ready for something else for my girls tops.
The cigarette is appreciated, though, My cop, she looks great with it. And I liked the poofy trail thing butt belt.
EDIT: I'm so ripping this off.
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
I agree that not all the female costume options should look so....whorish.
The downside to the most frequently proposed solution: "Just make the male pieces usable on females as well" is that if you did so, female characters would end up with nearly 3 times the costume options as males. They already have nearly twice as many in the default costume pieces.
You can bet your bottom dollar they aren't going to make the female costume pieces usable on males, and any new male exclusive pieces will be immediately demanded for female characters, making the problem worse.
Yeah, it kind of sucks that female characters are forced into a certain appearance if you use entire costume sets at once, but isn't that why we have such a great costume creator, so you don't have to use entire costume sets at once? Many games would just give us the costumes, and the only control we'd have over it is what color it is.
I've seen female characters that are decidedly NOT sexy, and are actually downright intimidating. Exercise your creativity a little bit and I'm sure you can find a place for some of the costume pieces in your own creations without having to make your character so stereotypical.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
A Knight pack does not need a Princess costume. Let a princess costume be paired with a prince costume, not with a suit of armor.
Just as a gunslinger for a gunslinger and a common western dress with common western attire... Honestly, this Gunslinger pack is about the same as if they released a Doctor Pack that contained a surgeon's outfit for males and a stripper's sexy nurse outfit for females. I have no problem with these female clothing options being in the game, but it shouldn't have been packaged in the Gunslinger Pack or it shouldn't have been the only female options in the Gunslinger Pack. Those are the two options... Including the saloon girl in lieu of including female gunslinger options is, at best, a mistake. I was looking for a video clip of the Simpsons episode where Lisa is trying to make a doctor doll (at some make your own doll party thing at a store) and the only option for the girl doll is the nurse outfit. In my searches, I found this excerpt from that episode. While I don't think CoH has gotten this bad, I just thought it was humorous and, sadly, within range if people can't start to understand why this pack has caused these criticisms. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftde81QNXDY One other thing... My personal opinion on the Barbarian Pack is that the only "mistake" along these lines is that the thigh high boots have stiletto (or near stiletto) heels. I'd like to see the people who designed that and the people who okay'd it to go and explain why those boots have those ridiculous heels to the tough and rugged female barbarian characters of Paragon, Preatoria and the Rogue Isles! ![]() |
I don't mind sexy girl outfits, but in the Gunslinger pack I really expected to be able to make a female gunslinger! This is just not it!
And I'm STILL pissed off that females didn't get the Baron coat.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
One other thing...
My personal opinion on the Barbarian Pack is that the only "mistake" along these lines is that the thigh high boots have stiletto (or near stiletto) heels. I'd like to see the people who designed that and the people who okay'd it to go and explain why those boots have those ridiculous heels to the tough and rugged female barbarian characters of Paragon, Preatoria and the Rogue Isles! ![]() |
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Because I think it needs to be said again :-)
From the feedback thread:
<snip>
I think the idea of either selling them as two different sets such as Western Barfly and Gunslinger as was suggested earlier was BRILLIANT. They could be packaged together as one set and a slightly higher cost or sold individually on different weeks. Personally I think more variety benefits us all. Paragon Studios sells more items, we get more stuff. Do be fair about it. Give men specialized costumes too, ie Bartender, Prince, King. Give us a more unisex (not necessarily identical, but equal) option for everyone and then more iconic/historic ones for males and females. <snip> |
Zwil,
Where as I appreciate that the message has been passed along to the art team. I want to make sure the message is heard. We are not saying we don't want special, "unique" or even "sexy" pieces, what we are saying is we want OPTIONS. Give us balance, the quote before illustrates how, and you could release them as two separate packs. I want both, and am willing to pay for both, if the quality is good ( and it usually is). I am pretty sure the men would like some "unique" pieces as well, the prince theme would give an opportunity for a long tunic, puffy sleeves, etc. I look forward to seeing this moving forward. I am super excited for the idea of a space themed pack.
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I would love to use the gunslinger2 belt with the steampunk jackets, but that's just a wish
Bright and Shiny,
American Wonder
![](http://i42.tinypic.com/mvgio9.jpg)
We'll make changes where we are able to, such as the case with the COT revamp. In the event we don't act on it, we still store feedback in the collective data banks for future reference. Just because we don't make an immediate change to something doesn't mean we aren't listening (P.S. We are
![]() Sometimes things take awhile to change one way or the other. Sometimes they don't change at all. Sometimes they change immediately. It's a part of the creative process when working on live product. We are listening and taking your thoughts into account. Sometimes we just have different viewpoint, and sometimes those viewpoints change ![]() |
Personally I believe Paragon Studios needs to address the issues raised by the costume packs IN those costume packs. If that fact that a costume item being released means the pre-tinting cannot be removed then I believe you need to add a 2 colour version.
It is great that Paragon Studios has taken the decision to have new stuff on the market each week and I am sure it will be beneficial in the long run. However it currently feels like it is having a negative impact on quality.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04