Gender Equality in Costumes - A lack thereof
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-11-29 06:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
In that case, there really should be better 'listening to feedback' periods, as this is not a new topic. Were this the first time, it would be a case of 'oh well, it happens'.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I will bring the topic to development.
Realistically, don't expect it any time soon. Schedules are planned out months in advance and right now we're working on both Issues 22 and 23 and art schedules are quite possibly the most rigorous and time consuming of the lot, especially the character artists. Time to revisit previous costume pieces is not currently included and to do so would compromise new costume sets, villain groups, etc, etc...it has an extreme domino effect. |
This is not the first time. Or even second or third. So...someone is doing something wrong
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
Quote:
Now see, this I would buy. It's so much better than the gaudy Michael Jackson-esque deal we're getting.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
The female characters I play are more modestly dressed, and I agree that it wouldn't hurt to see more variety in that department. But those four characters don't represent the average, and neither do your forum's complaints. Please keep that in mind! In the comics, for every Sue Storm, there are a gazillion Emma Frosts, Scarlet Witches, Wonder Women, Black Cats (here's looking at you, Virtue), Storms, Mystiques, Power Girls, She-Hulks and Storms. And it SELLS.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Time to revisit previous costume pieces is not currently included and to do so would compromise new costume sets, villain groups, etc, etc...it has an extreme domino effect.
|
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Realistically, don't expect it any time soon. Schedules are planned out months in advance and right now we're working on both Issues 22 and 23 and art schedules are quite possibly the most rigorous and time consuming of the lot, especially the character artists. Time to revisit previous costume pieces is not currently included and to do so would compromise new costume sets, villain groups, etc, etc...it has an extreme domino effect.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by seebs
I bring this up because we know it to be possible for development schedules to be run this way, and companies who do it are a lot more able to respond.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
|
Quote:
Yeeess, that really explains why there was a massive outcry when Catwoman and a few other heroines/villainesses were getting 'remakes' that made them shallow, 2D and dressing like-|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
The female characters I play are more modestly dressed, and I agree that it wouldn't hurt to see more variety in that department. But those four characters don't represent the average, and neither do your forum's complaints. Please keep that in mind! In the comics, for every Sue Storm, there are a gazillion Emma Frosts, Scarlet Witches, Wonder Women, Black Cats (here's looking at you, Virtue), Storms, Mystiques, Power Girls and She-Hulks. And it SELLS. Now, log in to the game and tell me if you see much difference.
Back? Good. Now you know, many of your female players actually do enjoy their more revealing choices. This is a comic book genre-based game, which is what the artists have been designing for. And the artistic direction in City of Heroes is the best out there. So please don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Do not hand the steering wheel to the forum community for the game's artistic direction. I'm not saying don't listen to the community. I'm saying we rarely represent your wider audience's tastes (CoT revamp and pre-tinting are probably exceptions, obviously), as sales have undoubtedly revealed time after time after time after time. |
Oh, wait. Reality check, please?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
Her outfit is nice thouigh - and you can gunfight in it |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also, please please tell me that the concept art for the set wasn't created after a screening of Jonah Hex.
 There's only one gunslinger in that picture, and I'm pretty sure its the one on the right. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I somewhat agree with this as well.|
Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi
I am with everyone of Heels not being Superhero/Fantasy attire.
|
And yet I keep using Thigh Highs and Stilettos because the shape of the feet is just wrong when I try using Flat boots. They just look like blocks instead of feet to me - at least with the heels I there's a slope and some shape.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
If you think of this pack as "period specific" it is even more offensive, since the only women who would show that much leg in that time period were sex workers.|
Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi
Wait, one minute here, the gunslingers pack is at least period specific and setup to the period, it certainly better than the magic pack in that regard. |
The "Dance hall girls" of which you speak were often also prostitutes, and at best would have been the period equivalent of strippers.
Other people have already posted period specific costumes for women that are more in keeping with an "I'm going to shoot you" theme. I mean come on, you can't even hide a gun in your garter in that saloon girl get-up.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
That's awesome. Thanks for letting us know. If you can, please tell him that we (meaning me and anyone else that agrees) wish him good luck.
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
To elaborate, Jay joined his friends start up.
|
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
Quote:
It still doesn't cure the fact it's Megan Fox, though. And I don't mean that in a good way >_>
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Her outfit is nice thouigh - and you can gunfight in it
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
Point of Order, there is more personality in any one Wonder Women, Black Cats (here's looking at you, Virtue), Storms, Mystiques, Power Girls and She-Hulks than 10,000 Sue Storms. I think there is a vast over statement about many woman in the Comic books that because they are sexy is the only reason it sells. She-Hulk had at least two series that were extreamlly well written for the most part. Storm is one of the most complex and well written super heroes period [if it hasn't all been re-con twice by now]. Power Girl is labeled over the top sex pot despite her personality being totally against that image.|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
The female characters I play are more modestly dressed, and I agree that it wouldn't hurt to see more variety in that department. But those four characters don't represent the average, and neither do your forum's complaints. Please keep that in mind! In the comics, for every Sue Storm, there are a gazillion Emma Frosts, Scarlet Witches, Wonder Women, Black Cats (here's looking at you, Virtue), Storms, Mystiques, Power Girls and She-Hulks. And it SELLS. Now, log in to the game and tell me if you see much difference.
Back? Good. Now you know, many of your female players actually do enjoy their more revealing choices. This is a comic book genre-based game, which is what the artists have been designing for. And the artistic direction in City of Heroes is the best out there. So please don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Do not hand the steering wheel to the forum community for the game's artistic direction. I'm not saying don't listen to the community. I'm saying we rarely represent your wider audience's tastes (CoT revamp and pre-tinting are probably exceptions, obviously), as sales have undoubtedly revealed time after time after time after time. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
I somewhat agree with this as well.
And yet I keep using Thigh Highs and Stilettos because the shape of the feet is just wrong when I try using Flat boots. They just look like blocks instead of feet to me - at least with the heels I there's a slope and some shape. |
Doom/Batman in 2012
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
"Dress up as a solitary ranger, a Hero with no name, or a sizzling firecracker"
...so I said to myself, self? Why not all three?
I don't know what this does to contribute to the cause of gender equality in costume parts, but I can't stop giggling. He just looks so much happier than any of us about this whole thing.
Quote:
What are you talking about? I thoroughly enjoyed "Transformers 2: Megan Fox Runs in Slo-Mo". |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
It still doesn't cure the fact it's Megan Fox, though. And I don't mean that in a good way >_>
|
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
Quote:
That is terrific. In every sense of the word.
|
Originally Posted by Radio_Silence
"Dress up as a solitary ranger, a Hero with no name, or a sizzling firecracker"
...so I said to myself, self? Why not all three? I don't know what this does to contribute to the cause of gender equality in costume parts, but I can't stop giggling. He just looks so much happier than any of us about this whole thing. |
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
I hope they at least fix the transparent bow and have a no veil option. Those should be easy fixes.
But, I will say, I REALLY don't like the 'this stuff is done so far in advance that by the time the players actually see it in beta, there is no time for our feedback to mean a damn and actually get something changed' comment. That's a HORRIBLE way of doing things.
Shadowblaze - Lvl 50 Dark/Thermal Cor, Alexander Kalsoa - Lvl 50 BS/Regen Scrapper, and a whole bunch of other Alts. Global is @Shadowblaze.
Quote:
So does doing things half-baked and having to revisit them to fix it. It's better to wait a little longer to get a quality product than a bunch of stuff hurriedly out the door. Measure as often as you have to so you only cut once.
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I will bring the topic to development.
Realistically, don't expect it any time soon. Schedules are planned out months in advance and right now we're working on both Issues 22 and 23 and art schedules are quite possibly the most rigorous and time consuming of the lot, especially the character artists. Time to revisit previous costume pieces is not currently included and to do so would compromise new costume sets, villain groups, etc, etc...it has an extreme domino effect. |
Dragon-King First level 50 -- Fire/Nrg Blaster
(and to many alts to mention)
Protector
Quote:
| Originally by Arcanaville: Everything in Praetoria was designed during a drinking binge in which the devs temporarily forgot the rules. |
Quote:
Bayformers, Zwill, Bayformers. There hasn't been an ACTUAL Transformers movie since the '86 one, remember?|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
What are you talking about? I thoroughly enjoyed "Transformers 2: Megan Fox Runs in Slo-Mo".
|
And anyone claiming otherwise will be beaten to death with there own skull
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
Given that the pretinting is texture based and revisiting would essentially mean the objects are just re-skinned without the tinted texture, the art time should decrease dramatically.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I will bring the topic to development.
Realistically, don't expect it any time soon. Schedules are planned out months in advance and right now we're working on both Issues 22 and 23 and art schedules are quite possibly the most rigorous and time consuming of the lot, especially the character artists. Time to revisit previous costume pieces is not currently included and to do so would compromise new costume sets, villain groups, etc, etc...it has an extreme domino effect. |
For making new models, I agree that would be time consuming.
In either case, can time be set aside for beyond issue 23 to at the very least address the pretinting issue that plagues the "premiere" costume sets (in no order):
- Magic
- Halloween
- Steampunk
- Celestial
- Halloween
- Ascension
- Gunslinger
- Arachnos Helms
- VEAT Costumes (all parts have pre-tinted issues)
- Edit: Wedding Pack
- Edit: Barbarian Set
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
^ Agreed. Put THAT to Development, I say...
|
Originally Posted by Shadowblaze
I hope they at least fix the transparent bow and have a no veil option. Those should be easy fixes.
But, I will say, I REALLY don't like the 'this stuff is done so far in advance that by the time the players actually see it in beta, there is no time for our feedback to mean a damn and actually get something changed' comment. That's a HORRIBLE way of doing things. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
To elaborate, Jay joined his friends start up. He had been with Paragon/COH for over 7 years and contributed greatly to the artistic development of the game, in fact you're going to be seeing the results of his work for some time to come. It's also worth pointing out, CoH was the only game Jay had worked on in the gaming sector, so it's understandable that he'd want to broaden his portfolio and experience a bit more.
Basically, he couldn't tell his friend "no" anymore and made the leap over. We certainly miss him and wish him all the best. Good news is, we still have two very experienced and veteran artists with both Eric and Cheryl and a new addition joining the art team soon. |
can you tell us more about this start up?
Quote:
You forgot the wedding pack, for which part of it STILL doesn't accept the second colour (the skirt iirc).
|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Given that the pretinting is texture based and revisiting would essentially mean the objects are just re-skinned without the tinted texture, the art time should decrease dramatically.
For making new models, I agree that would be time consuming. In either case, can time be set aside for beyond issue 23 to at the very least address the pretinting issue that plagues the "premiere" costume sets (in no order):
|
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
But sells to whom? And in what quantities? Even as contemporary superhero movies appeal to a broader box office, the dwindling readership for mainstream superhero comics is contracting more and more into a stereotype fanboy demographic.|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
The female characters I play are more modestly dressed, and I agree that it wouldn't hurt to see more variety in that department. But those four characters don't represent the average, and neither do your forum's complaints. Please keep that in mind! In the comics, for every Sue Storm, there are a gazillion Emma Frosts, Scarlet Witches, Wonder Women, Black Cats (here's looking at you, Virtue), Storms, Mystiques, Power Girls and She-Hulks. And it SELLS.
|
And Sue Storm? Even she has to wear a "cleavage window" outfit for formal occasions these days.
The other fact to keep in mind is that the population of video gamers is gradually achieving parity between men and women. It's now about 60/40, having once been overwhelmingly male. Moreover, women make up a significant percentage of the dedicated MMORPG playerbase in general. Paragon Studios would be only shooting itself in the foot with a six gun if its costume offerings only alienated such a sizable and growing part of the CoH community.
Quote:
You can gunfight in a bikini if you want to - in fact, if you pick the female gunslinger costume set option in the costume editor right off the bat, you will be - but I'd be concerned about not having anywhere to keep a pistol, and my entire outfit being set ablaze by a stray ember.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Her outfit is nice thouigh - and you can gunfight in it
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
I quite liked her character though - she was well-prepared for getting caught like that - just like Padme in Episode II |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
It still doesn't cure the fact it's Megan Fox, though. And I don't mean that in a good way >_>
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Yeah, that's another thing: Costume pieces that are allowed to have two colors should be able to take two colors. I've noticed that some of the pieces in the Barbarian set are limited to one color even though the category they're in allows for two. If we want to make the piece all one color, we'll make it all one color.|
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
You forgot the wedding pack, for which part of it STILL doesn't accept the second colour (the skirt iirc).
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
And Sue Storm? Even she has to wear a "cleavage window" outfit for formal occasions these days.
|
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Realistically, don't expect it any time soon. Schedules are planned out months in advance and right now we're working on both Issues 22 and 23 and art schedules are quite possibly the most rigorous and time consuming of the lot, especially the character artists. Time to revisit previous costume pieces is not currently included and to do so would compromise new costume sets, villain groups, etc, etc...it has an extreme domino effect.
What if, when planning schedules out months in advance, you budgeted 60-80% of developer and artist time for the stuff you were planning, leaving some room for things that are discovered later, or even personal choice for the devs to work on things they're passionate about?
I bring this up because we know it to be possible for development schedules to be run this way, and companies who do it are a lot more able to respond.