Gender Equality in Costumes - A lack thereof
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-11-29 06:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Yeah I wouldn't call the female pieces TOO sexy or anything. I think they just feel scammed. I will say, I noticed a sort of pattern. Steampunk, males got most of the good stuff(minus the rockin' clock belt). Barbarian, males didn't get too much while females got a chain mail bikini and quite a good pit of corsets and skirts. Gunslinger, favoring the males I guess? |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Which is my main complaint after seeing the screenshots. The Rancher outfit from the link earlier would have worked quite nicely and fit in the "gunslinger" theme.
And the skulls are from demonlings who didn't listen to their MM - which is why their dialogue is always talking about doing things "for the master!" |
CoT was pretty balanced imo.
But yeah, I guess people want equality in each pack rather than a pattern.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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In before this post gets a big mod edit. But must say that last photo--those football "uniforms" look hilariously uncomfortable. Talk about wedgies! Ouch!
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Originally Posted by Stormbird
Yes, hyperbole. Lots of it.
All these were sold to you several years ago. They're no longer made. Everything else? Well, here's the sum total of womens-wear store merchandise: Think you'd be a little miffed if those were all your choices? That's what's being said here. |
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While I agree with this nearly 100%, if someone doesn't like the concept of a piece they can go without it or just not use it thanks to the way the Paragon Market's set up.
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Originally Posted by Mazey
Why exactly?
Is female characters should have access to every type of option, why shouldn't male characters? Is it wrong that someone can see a cool gunslinger costume on a male character, want it for their female gunslinger but find out they're stuck with a striped corset? Yes, it is, horribly so. But, by the exact same token, if someone sees a striped corset on a female character and wants it on their male hero, but finds out they're stuck with all the "cool" pieces that don't fit the concept, that's sexist too. There's absolutely no reason any costume piece should be exclusive to either gender. |
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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You just inspired my next Deadlands campaign.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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There's nothing *wrong* with the female set in the gunslinger pack except that seriously there's no way that's a gunslinger. Except maybe in the 1800s version of Charlies Angels. ... |
...
...
... or maybe not... thinking about the pen-n-paper players I've got available nearby... I'm now terrified of how that would turn out.
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I tried to find parts that weren't *too* see through, etc. (or were otherwise edited) to avoid that. Bit harder than it sounds... |
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
In before this post gets a big mod edit. But must say that last photo--those football "uniforms" look hilariously uncomfortable. Talk about wedgies! Ouch!
|
But that's essentially what we've been given for female costume parts for the last few packs, compared to actual clothes (or at least tops) for the males.
I don't mind getting them... I *do* mind getting them exclusively.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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For what it's worth I don't outright hate the female options in this new costume pack. But I'd completely agree that there's absolutely nothing about it that implies "female gunslinger" to me either. Maybe someday the Devs will give us some -actual- female gunslinger options. Until then at least we have 19th century harlots covered. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There's nothing *wrong* with the female set in the gunslinger pack except that seriously there's no way that's a gunslinger. Except maybe in the 1800s version of Charlies Angels.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also, please please tell me that the concept art for the set wasn't created after a screening of Jonah Hex.
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Too bad they weren't inspired by something like this instead:
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Hi Zwillinger, thank you for the response.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
We've been closely following your feedback regarding this topic, both here and on the Beta forums. Unfortunately Cheryl, the artist who worked primarily on the Gunslinger Character Modelling, has been extremely pressed for time creating new costume sets and as such hasn't been able to post directly on the beta feedback thread. That being said, the feedback and concerns expressed have been communicated to the art and production team.
To address a few points We've been trying to add unique and different costume pieces for female options for the sake of overall variety, however I understand some of the concerns being expressed here, as does the rest of the Art and Production team. Moving forward, where possible, we will be making more gender neutral/male pieces created for females so as to more accurately reflect the Communities requests. Because each costume piece has to be individually created (we can't CTRL+C, CTRL+V the pieces from male to female unfortunately  ), this does mean that we will be offering less overall unique options, however we feel it's important to address this concern. If anyone took offense to our artistic choices, I apologize. It's not our intent to offend anyone. Regarding the pretinting of costume pieces: While pretinted pieces give the artists the ability to provide some very unique materials and add more visual interest to select pieces, we dont want to limit your creativity, either. Moving forward, we'll be offering both a pretinted and untinted option for all pieces which we choose to make pretinted. Thanks -Z |
Sadly though, it comes too little, too late for me. Because this conversation has been had before in the past, about disparity, nonsensical choices in costume pieces restricted by gender, pre-tinting and jackets.
Back then we got told 'We're taking your feedback into account' and then... same old decisions and then some.
I cannot conceive the kind of thought process that went into a gunslinger pack without giving everyone the option to be a gunslinger. If Paragon Studio's art team wanted to do a saloon set, there's perfectly good saloon keepers that could have been the option for male/huge characters, rather than LA's Bordello Burlesque troop does Wild Wild West being given in place of a female gunslinger like those famous ladies of old in the dime novels.
I'm coming up for seven years playing this game, and as I mentioned, a lot of old mistakes keep coming up. Prior statements ignored. Blatant lies told.
Super Booster II - Magic was released in April 2009, and back then people were clamouring for the Baron jacket for female characters. Females also didn't get the awesome Skull Mask Detail 1.
There's still a lack of shoulder animals for females. Cigars are still men and huge only unless you pay money for the gunslinger cigarillo.
New Dance Emotes coming with Going Rogue. They instead wound up in the Party Pack which worked out as a dollar an emote.
A dear friend of mine was sceptical of CoH going Freemium. At the time, I was saying 'Oh, that won't happen' and 'I'm sure they're not that silly.'
It looks like he gets to say 'I told you so'. I've had more issues with the game since September than before hand.
There's plenty I want to say but have trouble wording it. And I know that this post is likely going to be deleted anyway. But sometimes it just feels good to get it out there.
I'm done with paying for the game. I'll likely pop in to take advantage of it being F2P. Small RP-SG I've got a nice little character in to keep up with. I've got Paragon Points banked up enough to get anything I might feel like, they were purchased at the start of Freedom. There'll be things I miss like my 44 character slots on Union, being cut down once the VIP ones go, and losing out on the loyalty badge and costume stuff, but I can no longer justify to myself paying with the hope that 'they'll mean it this time, they'll listen.'
My £8.99 shall go to building up my collection of classic albums in the myriad areas of grunge, rock and metal. Maybe I'll come back to be a VIP in the future, but for now...
Adios, VIP-dom. At the end, I wasn't feeling very important at all.
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That guy looks angry! I bet he wish he had some cool corset options.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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I haven't attacked any Developers personally. I like the Dev team and respect the amount of love and work they have put into the game.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
No more so than most of what else has been written here. She wasn't the one posting in all caps after all, or equating the liberation of women gamers with the corset-jacket ratio.
I'm sorry, but extremely direct attacks being made on specific developers make me very uncomfortable. I don't think it's productive and I won't support it. |
However, I think collectively they are WRONG when it comes to this subject. That goes for any string-pullers in the background.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
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As usual, you said many things I completely agree with.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
...
If anything, I blame marketing. This is at best a western set, not a gunslinger set, because there's no female gunslinger. ... |
I want to say something counter to what you said above, not so much to argue against you and what you said, but because it points to a specific aspect I think to be important.
I don't honestly think that this pack would go without major criticism if it was just a "Western" pack.
I think the problem (beyond the Gunslinger name) is the gender counterparts.
Males get tough, ready to rumble, gunslinger gear and females get saloon girl (brothel lady).
Anyway, just something that some others have brought up and your comment there made me think to post this (although, I think Silver Age Fan has also mentioned this).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
 There's only one gunslinger in that picture, and I'm pretty sure its the one on the right. |
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Any chance at all of getting some of the pretinted pieces revisited?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Regarding the pretinting of costume pieces: While pretinted pieces give the artists the ability to provide some very unique materials and add more visual interest to select pieces, we dont want to limit your creativity, either. Moving forward, we'll be offering both a pretinted and untinted option for all pieces which we choose to make pretinted.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Love that look. Really wish we could have gotten holsters.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I never bothered to see that movie but yeah it does look like our Devs were "inspired" by it in this case. Too bad they weren't inspire by something like this instead:
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Considering the chunkiness of the police belt we've had for several years, still not sure why we didn't.
The only justifiable reason would be because the devs have something like Maelstrom's 2 state animated holsters (with guns holstered and drawn) in the works. But I really really doubt that.
In fact, if these parts need to be teh sexay, the secondary belts on many holsters that go around the upper thigh sjust below the buttocks have the same lifting and accentuating qualities that chaps do for both him and her. Maybe moreso. Probably why they often get worked into neo western film costuming...
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Incorrect, actually. 'Dressing sexy' is not, in and of itself, a problem. Hell, I have a few characters who dress specifically in that manner.|
Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi
Please note that Dressing Sexy doesn't make women sluts automatically I I think very much that is the tone most of the Anti-sexy posters are having here. Not to detract from their over all point that is valid but let us not heap on other stereo types while fining against one.
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And I can pull that off. And it's fine. But I'm damn well out of luck if I want a female gunslinger or tough-cowgirl, because I ain't getting any of those parts with this pack. And if I want to make a magic user that ISN'T a witch in a corset? Pfft, outta luck there too.
Does that make it clearer?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Irony also. Don't forget irony.
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Originally Posted by Stormbird
Yes, hyperbole. Lots of it.
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In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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I think the key words (which were used in repetition to highlight their importance) were, "Looking forward ..."
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Any chance at all of getting some of the pretinted pieces revisited?
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American Dawg, Starblaze, Neanderthal Joe, Shining Dawn, Tokamak Dragon, Stinger Incarnate, Burning Tyger, Dover Tornado, Big Roach, Dark Paladin, Archmage Wylde, Kings Row Hornet, Prancing Deer
Avogadro, Science Lord
Edgar Nightcraft, Doc Cicada, Chupa Macabre, Dr Forchtenstein, Blood Shrew
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This^. Also, I'm still missing corsets and skirts for my guys.
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Originally Posted by Mazey
Why exactly?
Is female characters should have access to every type of option, why shouldn't male characters? Is it wrong that someone can see a cool gunslinger costume on a male character, want it for their female gunslinger but find out they're stuck with a striped corset? Yes, it is, horribly so. But, by the exact same token, if someone sees a striped corset on a female character and wants it on their male hero, but finds out they're stuck with all the "cool" pieces that don't fit the concept, that's sexist too. There's absolutely no reason any costume piece should be exclusive to either gender. |
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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Sorry to see you go. |
Originally Posted by Zortel
Adios, VIP-dom. At the end, I wasn't feeling very important at all.
|
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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I know, I'm just politely expressing interest in them changing their plans.
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Originally Posted by Mallerick
I think the key words (which were used in repetition to highlight their importance) were, "Looking forward ..."
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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It's appreciated Zwill, but 'Moving forward' has been said before. The Gunslinger set was MEANT to be 'moving forward'...and it didn't.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
We've been closely following your feedback regarding this topic, both here and on the Beta forums. Unfortunately Cheryl, the artist who worked primarily on the Gunslinger Character Modelling, has been extremely pressed for time creating new costume sets and as such hasn't been able to post directly on the beta feedback thread. That being said, the feedback and concerns expressed have been communicated to the art and production team.
To address a few points We've been trying to add unique and different costume pieces for female options for the sake of overall variety, however I understand some of the concerns being expressed here, as does the rest of the Art and Production team. Moving forward, where possible, we will be making more gender neutral/male pieces created for females so as to more accurately reflect the Communities requests. Because each costume piece has to be individually created (we can't CTRL+C, CTRL+V the pieces from male to female unfortunately ), this does mean that we will be offering less overall unique options, however we feel it's important to address this concern. If anyone took offense to our artistic choices, I apologize. It's not our intent to offend anyone. Thanks -Z |
What would be better received is making a Female Gunslinger set as well. Because that is what was and IS still wanted and missing.
If this comes down to an issue of 'but times already been spent' then maybe, just maybe, you should ASK the playerbase before finalising stuff?
No one (that I know) is 'offended' per se. Dissapointed? Yes. Thats not a costume I could use on a female cowgirl, without making them look like half the images on Google (Don't go there...please, for your sakes). Frustrated? Yes; this has been happening for some time now, re: the first post.
So, for once, can we get some time spent on going back and giving players what they actually want from a set, rather than what 'someone thought' they would want? It hasn't happened for many of the packs it should have (fixes for Animal pack, more diversity there, extra stuff from Magic and Steampunk etc) but, well, I can hope, right?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Oohh ... hey, if that will work count me in too.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I know, I'm just politely expressing interest in them changing their plans.
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American Dawg, Starblaze, Neanderthal Joe, Shining Dawn, Tokamak Dragon, Stinger Incarnate, Burning Tyger, Dover Tornado, Big Roach, Dark Paladin, Archmage Wylde, Kings Row Hornet, Prancing Deer
Avogadro, Science Lord
Edgar Nightcraft, Doc Cicada, Chupa Macabre, Dr Forchtenstein, Blood Shrew
Just for further healthy discussion...
This is an example of something I (and I am sure others have) mentioned in the feedback thread:
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Besides "The Quick And The Dead" being a great movie (seriously, if you like Westerns, watch it! Or if you just like very well done stories... I happen to love how well Sam Raimi makes a film!)...|
Originally Posted by Lothic
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The above costume is a great example of being like the male costume, but still being female.
The picture above is from when she's being a little darker and serious, so her shirt is closed up a bit more (good or bad)...
But the outfit overall has some wonderful feminine flair while still maintaining the gritty theme.
Purists may not like it, but for a "Gunslinger" or even just a "western" theme for a super hero video game, I think this is a fantastic approach.
I'm not saying that the game should have copied these particular aspects, but the tighter/form-fitting jacket, the flared cuffs, the frills (pretty sure there are more on the back), the tight pants, the fancy buckle and the stylish, well-fit hat and long hair... All great ways to say, this is the female gunslinger outfit... without being overly girly nor demeaning (in comparison to how tough the male counterpart's costume may look).
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Wouldn't that just be a dream?|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
If this comes down to an issue of 'but times already been spent' then maybe, just maybe, you should ASK the playerbase before finalising stuff?
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"Here are some concept sketches for an upcoming costume pack. Vote for your favorite!"
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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YespleaseYespleaseYespleaseYespleaseYespleaseYespl ease.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
Wouldn't that just be a dream?
"Here are some concept sketches for an upcoming costume pack. Vote for your favorite!" |
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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Originally Posted by Lothic
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...WANT. Want freaking NOW.
Hey, Zwill? THIS, right here, needs making. Asap. That would be good 'going forward'...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
To address a few points
We've been trying to add unique and different costume pieces for female options for the sake of overall variety, however I understand some of the concerns being expressed here, as does the rest of the Art and Production team. Moving forward, where possible, we will be making more gender neutral/male pieces created for females so as to more accurately reflect the Communities requests. Because each costume piece has to be individually created (we can't CTRL+C, CTRL+V the pieces from male to female unfortunately
If anyone took offense to our artistic choices, I apologize. It's not our intent to offend anyone.
Regarding the pretinting of costume pieces: While pretinted pieces give the artists the ability to provide some very unique materials and add more visual interest to select pieces, we dont want to limit your creativity, either. Moving forward, we'll be offering both a pretinted and untinted option for all pieces which we choose to make pretinted.
Thanks
-Z