Gender Equality in Costumes - A lack thereof
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-11-29 06:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Is all this really that big of a deal? It is a super hero game. Whop generally writes super hero stuff like comic and movies. Guys. Who are they mostly (if someone can quote a stat saying teenage girls LOVE comics and not Twilight, I am willing to change the statement) aimed at? Guys.
What do guys like seeing? Scantily dressed women. Does it really matter it Sister Psy, or that female toon over there is sexy? They can still kick ***. If anything, I find states codpiece and lycra more offensive than a sexy female suit.
And you know that no one is making the female toons dress sexy. Sure, the packs do have sexy bits..but no one is FORCED to dress like that. Sounds to me like the female players who have a very skimpy costume, then proceed to blow up and get all offended if you say they look nice.
Quote:
I'm pretty sure for a professional community manager that goes without saying. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
But it isn't the whole communities request. Something to remember.
|
However there are very clear opportunities to please a much larger group of people than they are pleasing, whilst not upsetting anyone extra/new.
No-one's saying do things to the detriment of the existing sets. They want additional options, and changes that allow more options.
Forse: lvl 22 FF/NRG Defender
Tam Krannock: lvl 37 Shield/Mace Tanker
Toppa Grace: lvl 25 Fire/Ice Blaster
----
Red Commissar: I'm in the Queen Mother. Only more awesome. And alive
Quote:
Obviously you need to tell Serge to make the outfit out of better material...maybe the unstable molecule type that the Fantastic Four with, that can resist being set ablze by a stray ember.
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You can gunfight in a bikini if you want to - in fact, if you pick the female gunslinger costume set option in the costume editor right off the bat, you will be - but I'd be concerned about not having anywhere to keep a pistol, and my entire outfit being set ablaze by a stray ember.
|
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
However, it IS a part of the community requesting we get something other than underwear. YOU may be happy with it. Not everyone is. YOU aren't everyone. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
But it isn't the whole communities request. Something to remember.
|
"Something to remember."
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
Quote:
Correct. A vocal minority does not make up "the community". Most of the community has rarely (if ever) logged into the forums.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
But it isn't the whole communities request. Something to remember.
|
If you talk to people in-game--the people who actually log in and play--they generally seem to be very happy with City of X. I know because I spend way more time there than here.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
Quote:
See #6 on this list of Worst 90s Superhero Redesigns. Here's another from the same era.|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
Does anyone have a fact check on tap?
|
Quote:
Thank you for the response and feedback.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
We've been closely following your feedback regarding this topic, both here and on the Beta forums. Unfortunately Cheryl, the artist who worked primarily on the Gunslinger Character Modelling, has been extremely pressed for time creating new costume sets and as such hasn't been able to post directly on the beta feedback thread. That being said, the feedback and concerns expressed have been communicated to the art and production team.
To address a few points We've been trying to add unique and different costume pieces for female options for the sake of overall variety, however I understand some of the concerns being expressed here, as does the rest of the Art and Production team. Moving forward, where possible, we will be making more gender neutral/male pieces created for females so as to more accurately reflect the Communities requests. Because each costume piece has to be individually created (we can't CTRL+C, CTRL+V the pieces from male to female unfortunately  ), this does mean that we will be offering less overall unique options, however we feel it's important to address this concern. If anyone took offense to our artistic choices, I apologize. It's not our intent to offend anyone. Regarding the pretinting of costume pieces: While pretinted pieces give the artists the ability to provide some very unique materials and add more visual interest to select pieces, we dont want to limit your creativity, either. Moving forward, we'll be offering both a pretinted and untinted option for all pieces which we choose to make pretinted. Thanks -Z |
I applaud that there is a plan to "straighten out the costume rudder", as it were.
I will not expand on any additional feedback re: your comments, I think others have expressed them adequately.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
And Sue Storm? Even she has to wear a "cleavage window" outfit for formal occasions these days.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
See #6 on this list of Worst 90s Superhero Redesigns. Here's another from the same era.
|
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
Quote:
Well, thank god then that not every guy is the kind of shallow reject of society that you just described then. I'm a guy, and I'd rather see diversity and choice. No, I'm not going all OTT 'Someone think of the children!' or demanding 'womens rights' when they already have and use them. Hell, if people want to dress that way, more power to 'em.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Is all this really that big of a deal? It is a super hero game. Whop generally writes super hero stuff like comic and movies. Guys. Who are they mostly (if someone can quote a stat saying teenage girls LOVE comics and not Twilight, I am willing to change the statement) aimed at? Guys.
What do guys like seeing? Scantily dressed women. Does it really matter it Sister Psy, or that female toon over there is sexy? They can still kick ***. If anything, I find states codpiece and lycra more offensive than a sexy female suit. And you know that no one is making the female toons dress sexy. Sure, the packs do have sexy bits..but no one is FORCED to dress like that. Sounds to me like the female players who have a very skimpy costume, then proceed to blow up and get all offended if you say they look nice. |
But in this kind of thing there is swiftly becoming one choice and one choice only. And one choice is, surprise surprise, not much of choice.
If it was a case of 'Saloon girl OR Jacket wearing gunslinger cowgirl' then there would be no issue here. But there is no choice, and thus an issue.
Oh, and would some grammar and line-breaking kill you? Please? Because the lack of it's killing my eyes.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
I haven't said whether I liked it or not. What I have said is I wanted some of those male pieces for female avatars.|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
However, it IS a part of the community requesting we get something other than underwear. YOU may be happy with it. Not everyone is. YOU aren't everyone.
"Something to remember." |
I just know the vocal forum community doesn't represent the majority of the gaming community and a lot of things.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Yes. |
Originally Posted by MisterD
Is all this really that big of a deal?
|
Quote:
| What do guys like seeing? Scantily dressed women. |
Quote:
| Does it really matter it Sister Psy, or that female toon over there is sexy? They can still kick ***. |
Quote:
| And you know that no one is making the female toons dress sexy. Sure, the packs do have sexy bits..but no one is FORCED to dress like that. Sounds to me like the female players who have a very skimpy costume, then proceed to blow up and get all offended if you say they look nice. |
"The packs do have sexy bits." Yes. The problem is that's *the whole direction* of the female options. *I CANNOT MAKE* a female gunslinger with the parts offered in the "gunslinger" set. I can make a showgirl, kind of. Look at the "Quick and the Dead" image shown a few times in this thread. Those parts weren't made, despite being FAR more appropriate for a pack marketed as a "Gunslinger" pack.
We're asking for options that are NOT corsets and bikini bottoms.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
Quote:
Sucks to be you, then. There've been some pretty decent, and even great, series's out there since then.
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
As far as I'm concerned, there hasn't been an actual Transformers anything since the '86 movie.
Although the giant robot thing Michael Bay did was not bad at times. |
Quote:
And it couldn't possibly be because you don't bring up issues of gender equality of costumes in random global channels or PUGs? Somehow, I'm thinking that the people you associate with in the game are also a small minority. There can only be so many people in any given global channel or league, after all.|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
Correct. A vocal minority does not make up "the community". Most of the community has rarely (if ever) logged into the forums.
If you talk to people in-game--the people who actually log in and play--they generally seem to be very happy with City of X. I know because I spend way more time there than here. |
Poor argument.
Especially when you consider how unlikely it is that anyone from Paragon Studios is listening to any given global channel - and if you want to say "Hey, Paragon Studios, I am unhappy with this, I would like this to be changed, or at least to hear your rationalization for this," the forums are a much better place for that.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
Quote:
I'd be upset if female characters got the male options and female only options, while males only got "neutral." There's already items that should be ported over to males, in addition to the things to be added to female characters. Something that's worth keeping in mind, Zwill.
|
Originally Posted by Forse
I'm pretty sure for a professional community manager that goes without saying.
However there are very clear opportunities to please a much larger group of people than they are pleasing, whilst not upsetting anyone extra/new. No-one's saying do things to the detriment of the existing sets. They want additional options, and changes that allow more options. |
The Paladin
Steel Canyon, Virtue
Exalted
@Paladin
Quote:
That was a more primitive time |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
The Victorians would have scoffed at you
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Wow, I posted on the CoH Facebook post about the fact that 'Gunslinger' kit is only available on male/huge, and that women get the saloon girl kit. Included a link to this thread, nothing rude or offensive just a statement of facts.
A few minutes later the post is gone.
/golfclap
Lying is BAD, marketing team! I shouldn't be doing your job for you and telling potential paying customers what they are actually buying and not getting!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
You think these issues aren't available in reprints these days? For decades, the Invisible Woman wore the same jumpsuit outfit as Mr. Fantastic and the Human Torch, then someone thought she needed "modernizing" late in the day. And as I said previously, fan feedback resulted in that redesign's retirement.|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
"These days?"
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
A vocal minority does not make up "the community".
|
Some will of course defend the most "whorrific" outfits to their dying breaths, at least on comics bulletin boards, but that's a truly vocal minority.
Quote:
Ah, i wish him success and fun at his new projects.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
To elaborate, Jay joined his friends start up. He had been with Paragon/COH for over 7 years and contributed greatly to the artistic development of the game, in fact you're going to be seeing the results of his work for some time to come. It's also worth pointing out, CoH was the only game Jay had worked on in the gaming sector, so it's understandable that he'd want to broaden his portfolio and experience a bit more.
Basically, he couldn't tell his friend "no" anymore and made the leap over. We certainly miss him and wish him all the best. Good news is, we still have two very experienced and veteran artists with both Eric and Cheryl and a new addition joining the art team soon. |
So... now that the Sexy One has moved on, does that mean the cornrows/dreadlocks for females, and dreadlocks for males are now a possibility?
(Yes, i know there's been hairstyle called "dreadlocks" in the game since launch, but it's about as dreadlock-like as taking a dog, painting it yellow, and then adding a collar with a tag that says "Meow" is catlike. If anything it resembles gutterpunk style spiked hair. (And i shouldn't even mention the original "punk" hairstyle that i can't recall seeing on actual punks more than maybe a few times out of tens of thousands of punks viewed from over 35 years of punk styles.))
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
Pfft, only in some ways...Looking at the way Britain is now, I sometimes find it hard to tell the difference...
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That was a more primitive time
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
Maybe boys are just more violent and likely to commit crimes? |
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
most of the enemy groups seem to be a boys only club
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
You know what? Since we're talking about equality among costume sets, I may as well toss my pet peeve out there too.
I'm still - *STILL* - looking for my Decorated Military Formal Jacket for the Huge and Female body types. All three models have a Military Formal jacket that they can add the Chest detail for awards on, but only the normal sized male option has a jacket with a multicolored, more detailed set of medals baked onto the jacket.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
It's been a bit since I've done Praetoria maps but outside of the whole 'damsel-in-distress' thing, do you even face off against the female PrPD in combat?|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
Tsoo: No
Paragon PD: Yes (you rescue them in various missions/morality missions/etc. Though I don't know about on the street.) Wyvern: No. Sky raiders: No. Malta: Doesn't look like it, but it's a fair bit of bulky gear. And they work with the Knives, who are 100% female. Trolls: After the body change from Superdyne, hard to say... though given the Destroyers, I'd say no. Council: The only women are Arakhn and (formerly Council) - er - the one who's now a freakshow that I can't remember. Lost: No. At least the COT got some obviously female characters with their revamp. Hopefully some of the other groups do. |
The Malta/KoA thing is still the boys telling the girls to get their own tree-house.
The CoT revamp was a step in the right direction (although I can't recall if any of the bosses -outside of the succubi- are female)
Being that I used to know some female g-bangers; I wouldn't mind seeing female minions (for Skulls and Hellions); wasn't too impressed by the 'girlfriend from hell'.
A caste of female warriors in Cim would be interesting (in Cim armor, sybil gear or even the new barbarian get ups)
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Quote:
It has its moments.
|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
Sucks to be you, then.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Yup, it's official. Second post just got deleted off the Facebook post. Censorship is alive and kicking in Paragon! Woo!
Nice job guys! Y'know what, I think I'm done. My last 6 month sub hit this month, so, come next year? Well, I'll see when it gets to it. But I think you can kiss any more money from me goodbye. I think I'm through.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Buuuut... the main reason I wanted to post in this attention worthy thread is to point out that the entirety of the game has a sex-bias.
There's been a real under representation of females in NPC mobs that, IMO, goes hand in hand with the lack of female pet models for MMs.
I don't think there's a single female police officer between Paragon, RI and Praetoria and most of the enemy groups seem to be a boys only club (Wyvern, Sky Raiders, GBs, Malta, Tsoo, Trolls, Council, Prisoners, Lost, etc). Even some of the co-ed groups only have one female type in the whole faction (Hellions, Freakshow)
Paragon PD: Yes (you rescue them in various missions/morality missions/etc. Though I don't know about on the street.)
Wyvern: No.
Sky raiders: No.
Malta: Doesn't look like it, but it's a fair bit of bulky gear. And they work with the Knives, who are 100% female.
Trolls: After the body change from Superdyne, hard to say... though given the Destroyers, I'd say no.
Council: The only women are Arakhn and (formerly Council) - er - the one who's now a freakshow that I can't remember.
Lost: No.
At least the COT got some obviously female characters with their revamp. Hopefully some of the other groups do.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.