Unanswered Pummit Questions


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
I think it's safe to say that the original design of some archetypes differ from reality. Changes like the ones mentioned in this thread are the result of seeing a problem and then choosing to redefine the archetype's original design or to stick with their original design.

The case of the Stalker changes I think it's a bit of both. We definitely don't want to completely change the stealthy flavor of the archetype, but a the same time we want to more strongly define them as a competent single target damage dealer. As I've mentioned earlier I can't wait for you guys to hammer on this, poke holes in the design and help us make this change be as positive as possible.

Synapse
Will do just that, we are already planning on putting together teams for this on the beta server just to see how well this works out to be.


Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator

Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by gameboy1234 View Post
Ah hah! So....

While some Darky sets are being looked at and proliferated, any chance we could get Black Hole looked at for existing /Dark Miasma players? Please?

I think the whole "lets give the enemy Intangible" is the biggest problem. Possible fixes include substituting Stun for Intangible, or substituting Stun+KB (my favorite) for Intangible. Could also give the TEAM Intangible, rather than the enemy; that might work.

Other thoughts welcome.


My DM character is so strong I shrug about Black Hole.

Gravity, Force Field, and Sonic Resonance really do need a fix to these powers though.


 

Posted

I have to say I really like the sounds of Dark Control, Dark Assault, and Dark Affinity. Dark Affinity's new powers almost sound good enough that I feel Dark Miasma users get gypped.

Dark Control looks and sounds like a good set. I look forward to playing with it and I may just make a new Dom. My current Dom is Plant/Earth/Fire. Will a Dark/Dark Dom top that? We'll have to see!

Also thanks for stopping by and talking to us and answering some questions Synapse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

Posted

Let me ask this, Darkness Control is not going to be what replaces Illusion control for doms? Or is this seperate? While it sounds good and all I just do not want it to be what pain domination was compared to empathy when some villains really wanted empathy.


Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator

Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
Arbiter Hawk succinctly summed up the Stalker improvements. I'll add this though:

Using Assassin Strike while hidden is still interruptible. It is the only way of dealing that massive scale 7 damage and inflicting demoralize. If you placate an enemy you are considered hidden and will execute an interruptible Assassin's Strike.

In practice these changes should feel pretty good. You can open up with Build Up>Assassin's Strike>Placate>Whatever and then go about hitting remaining enemies and building stacks of Assassin's Focus. In a more prolonged fight Assassin's Strike will be able to be used more than just an opener.

This change is also intended to solve the "very efficient team" problem. It's great that your team is super efficient at obliterating enemies, but it's a bummer for the Stalker because a spawn is often wiped out before they get a chance to land an Assassin's Strike. With the discussed changes they'll still be able to use the Assassin's Strike power and if they stack enough Assassin's Focus they'll be able to deal pretty massive damage very quickly. They'll be able to do this regardless if their team isn't allowing them to open up with an Assassin's Strike from hide.

I feel there is definitely a time and place for the Assassin's Strike from hide. The intent here is NOT to replace this power's stealth functionality. When I22 hits beta we'll have our eyes peeled to your feedback, as it will be critical to the success of these changes.
Has any thought been given to what happens when you click AS just as you're about to rehide? This is a particular favourie tactic of mine on my stalkers to maximise damage output rather than scrapping, and i am a little sad that this awesome boost for stalkers will inadvertantly wreck my tactic, or at least lower my dps to below what it currently is by forcing me to wait an extra 2 seconds so I can AS from hidden. Don't get me wrong I'd love the option to scrap and dps hopefully will be a lot more competetive, but I'd rather not feel forced into scrapping, as I love that feeling of being on the edge trying to get as many hidden ASes in as short a time as possible (to the point where on my KM my attack chain is just AS/CS repeat, and I've never had so much fun using only 2 powers before). The DPS may not be the best but it feels so devastating to use, especially on AVs, who are taunted (so it's easier to pull off) and debuffed (so those orange numbers are MASSIVE). I'd hate a side effect of this buff to be a nerf to my favourite way of playing, as that's when I feel at my most stalkery; I have more than enough scrappy toons as it is lol.


TL;DR - I love waiting for hide and sticking it to whoever has it coming. This buff would nerf my tactic of starting to AS just before i rehide so i save a second or 2 of interrupt.

A suggestion might be to split AS into two powers, one which works like now and one which is purely for Assassin's Focus (probably name it that), if it's possible for 2 powers to share the same set of slots (or maybe even go crazy give it at level one with Assassination, though that'd be kinda lame cause you'd have no slots for it, unless one slot in AS = one auto slot put in Assassin's Focus (code probably does not exist for this))

A probably much more difficult, but simpler for the player, solution would be to calculate if by the time the attack would animate would the player have rehidden if it were to use the interruptable version, if no then use the uninterruptable AF buffed version. If yes it works as it does now, rehiding during the interrupt period and striking for full hidden damage.

Also I apologise for the rambling; I just got off a pretty heavy shift.


@Rooks

"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk View Post
Dark Astoria critters and mission content will provide threads, components, and both Astral and Empyrean merits.
Hi again, all. I'm stopping in to clarify my post from before. Please note that these are the current plans for Dark Astoria rewards, but they are subject to change once we start receiving data from Beta testing.

Defeating critters in Dark Astoria, whether street sweeping or the critters inside DA missions, will give you both Physical and Psychic Incarnate XP, and chances to get threads on each defeat. Completing the one-off Repeatable Missions available in the zone will allow you to gain Threads. Completing the Incarnate Story arcs will allow you to obtain Incarnate Components, Incarnate Merits, or Threads, with some amount of time-gating per reward per arc. Incarnate Story arcs can also be flashbacked via Ouroboros, allowing you to repeat them at your own pace (and allowing you to re-earn rewards after your cooldown on that choice has elapsed).

I hope that this helps shed some light on the great extent to which solo and small team progress through the Incarnate system will be possible in Death Incarnate.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk View Post
Hi again, all. I'm stopping in to clarify my post from before. Please note that these are the current plans for Dark Astoria rewards, but they are subject to change once we start receiving data from Beta testing.

Defeating critters in Dark Astoria, whether street sweeping or the critters inside DA missions, will give you both Physical and Psychic Incarnate XP, and chances to get threads on each defeat. Completing the one-off Repeatable Missions available in the zone will allow you to gain Threads. Completing the Incarnate Story arcs will allow you to obtain Incarnate Components, Incarnate Merits, or Threads, with some amount of time-gating per reward per arc. Incarnate Story arcs can also be flashbacked via Ouroboros, allowing you to repeat them at your own pace (and allowing you to re-earn rewards after your cooldown on that choice has elapsed).

I hope that this helps shed some light on the great extent to which solo and small team progress through the Incarnate system will be possible in Death Incarnate.
Sounds good!

Now about that test....turn the clocks forward....it's time to test!


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk View Post
I hope that this helps shed some light on the great extent to which solo and small team progress through the Incarnate system will be possible in Death Incarnate.
It does, thanks a lot for that. I am sure people's final opinions will be shaped strongly by what things like XP and drop rates turn out to be, but that sounds very comprehensive overall, and I'm looking forward to (testing) it.

PS: Please tie someone to a keyboard who can fix the copy tool.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk View Post
Hi again, all. I'm stopping in to clarify my post from before. Please note that these are the current plans for Dark Astoria rewards, but they are subject to change once we start receiving data from Beta testing.
Sounds awesome!

Now about our beloved Dark Astoria fog...


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooks View Post
Has any thought been given to what happens when you click AS just as you're about to rehide? This is a particular favourie tactic of mine on my stalkers to maximise damage output rather than scrapping, and i am a little sad that this awesome boost for stalkers will inadvertantly wreck my tactic, or at least lower my dps to below what it currently is by forcing me to wait an extra 2 seconds so I can AS from hidden.
I do that too, and it's fun, but I have to say, I'll willingly give it up for my own Stalkers, because (having secondaries other than Ninjitsu or EA) it's too fragile an event. It's great when I pull it off, but all the times it is instead interrupted or I would just plain be unable to AS something mean that I will likely come out well ahead on average if this change causes me to lose that.

I understand the cool factor, though. I lament its loss on the one hand, but welcome its replacement on the other.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk View Post
Hi again, all. I'm stopping in to clarify my post from before. Please note that these are the current plans for Dark Astoria rewards, but they are subject to change once we start receiving data from Beta testing.

Defeating critters in Dark Astoria, whether street sweeping or the critters inside DA missions, will give you both Physical and Psychic Incarnate XP, and chances to get threads on each defeat. Completing the one-off Repeatable Missions available in the zone will allow you to gain Threads. Completing the Incarnate Story arcs will allow you to obtain Incarnate Components, Incarnate Merits, or Threads, with some amount of time-gating per reward per arc. Incarnate Story arcs can also be flashbacked via Ouroboros, allowing you to repeat them at your own pace (and allowing you to re-earn rewards after your cooldown on that choice has elapsed).

I hope that this helps shed some light on the great extent to which solo and small team progress through the Incarnate system will be possible in Death Incarnate.
Sounds good. I'm interested in the "Incarnate Merits" part. I need to be able to get some Emps and Astrals.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

Posted

It does. Thanks Hawk.



 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
I think it's safe to say that the original design of some archetypes differ from reality.
I think its safe to say that none of the archetypes actually follows their on-paper design imperatives perfectly. For one thing, calling stalkers "melee blasters" begs the question as to what "blasters" are supposed to be.

In the context of stalkers, though, the thought was that stalkers would pick up a specific original design intent of blasters: that up-front burst damage would represent a substantial part of their survival. That's why they have low health: they were intended to be squishy and trade defensive strength for burst damage "DPNow" mitigation.

The main problem was that just like for blasters, DPNow mitigation doesn't really work on teams**, and it doesn't scale to higher-difficulty content.


Quote:
Changes like the ones mentioned in this thread are the result of seeing a problem and then choosing to redefine the archetype's original design or to stick with their original design.

The case of the Stalker changes I think it's a bit of both. We definitely don't want to completely change the stealthy flavor of the archetype, but a the same time we want to more strongly define them as a competent single target damage dealer. As I've mentioned earlier I can't wait for you guys to hammer on this, poke holes in the design and help us make this change be as positive as possible.

Synapse
I think, as with all changes, it would be helpful if we knew what the intent was, besides the general "make things better." If stalkers are really supposed to be preeminent single target melee attackers, players could test for that. If they are instead supposed to be average single target attackers but specialized burst damage attackers, we could test for that. But I think the kinds of feedback you're going to get will be colored by everyone's individual opinion on how stalkers "should" work. Some believe they are scrappers with less health, and thus should have universally higher damage in single target and AoE. Some buy into the attack from stealth aspect, but wonder why the burst damage isn't higher if sustained damage is definitely lower. I think everyone is wondering what the benchmark is. What does "competent" mean in the context of how much damage stalkers should deal?




** and I was on those all-stalker CoV beta teams where among other things we all lined up on a target and did the 3-2-1-AS thing just to try to figure out how stalkers were supposed to work on teams.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
For one thing, calling stalkers "melee blasters" begs the question as to what "blasters" are supposed to be.
Ranged Stalkers?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRyu View Post
Let me ask this, Darkness Control is not going to be what replaces Illusion control for doms? Or is this seperate? While it sounds good and all I just do not want it to be what pain domination was compared to empathy when some villains really wanted empathy.
Replace is not the word I would use. I would say Darkness Control is coming out I22 and Illusion Control is not.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I think, as with all changes, it would be helpful if we knew what the intent was, besides the general "make things better."
That would definitely be helpful. CoH has changed hands a lot over the years and design philosophies change as designers change. A lot of the design decisions were made by those long before my time and quite possibly even before Castle's time as well. So, we have to dig through ancient dusty documents and when none are to be found we are left to make educated guesses.

My personal philosophy is to give you guys what you want provided the following is true:

1) We have time.
2) The request is reasonable.
3) There's good data to support the necessity of making such a change.
4) The change won't negatively impact game balance.
5) The change doesn't cause a bunch of other smaller problems.

Naturally there's a bunch of other factors, but those are the big ones.

Synapse


 

Posted

I really don't like a couple things about the Dark/Dark combo for Controllers, as detailed.

On Dark Affinity:
I really, really dislike that Dark's niche of being one of the control-heavy support sets is going to be removed almost entirely. Why? Is this really being viewed as overpowering? Time Manipulation retains a single target (Mag 4!) hold with a rare debuff attached to it, and has an AoE control field which serves a very similar purpose to Fearsome Stare (reducing the attack frequency of a large group of mobs).
Furthering that, I also don't particularly care for either of the powers Dark Affinity is getting to replace, to me, what is/was the beating heart of the set. Neither one seems particularly useful to me, honestly. A short burst +defense effect is going to have a similar result as just using Twilight Grasp in optimal circumstances and will leave the intended target dead anyway if they get unlucky. Furthering that, how exactly will the defense numbers even compare to traditional buffs? Are we talking, suddenly soft-capped to everything? How long will this last? I ask because it wouldn't surprise me to see something that looks like Farsight but neutered.

+Regen/Recovery for defeated foes doesn't sound like it will be practical in a combat environment, because they won't have noticeable effects until the majority of the enemy is dead unless the buff magnitude is extremely high, due to the nature of the beast with those two attributes, and by the time the majority of a spawn is dead... they're not really helpful attributes. Sure, maybe it will reduce down-time at low levels when everyone is sucking wind due to poor slotting (assuming this even ends up available at low levels?), but towards the higher end of the game it sounds pretty useless to me.

Meanwhile, why are we keeping the one power in the set that is almost universally hated by the playerbase: Black Hole? If anything should be outright replaced (and I mean, for all archetypes, not just Dark Affinity), it's this.

I'm sorry if I seem overly critical of these ideas, but I have been waiting a very, very long time to see Dark Miasma make it to the Controller archetype, and, as it stands, it's not only not even the set that I wanted anymore, it doesn't even look like a very good set anymore, which is very disappointing considering how powerful and versatile the most recent addition to the Support lineup is.

On Dark Control:
The Immobilize being a cone will be very, very annoying, especially when paired with the secondaries that require you to be in melee range to utilize well.

The Disorient being a PBAOE will make that problem even worse because of the classic problem of "jump out, target for cone, angle character correctly, fire, jump back in, PBAOE," that already plagues sets that mix and match cones with PBAOEs. It's very annoying, and in a Control set, it's not just lost DPS as it is in most sets affected, it's potentially losing you enough damage mitigation to get killed before getting that Disorient off.

Edit: As a piece of constructive criticism, maybe you could put Fearsome Stare back into Dark Miasma, and make an Area version of Possess in Dark Control instead? It could be very cool and thematic. Maybe an Anchor style power, you flood a target with nether spirits, Possessing (Confusing) it, and causing it to pulse a wave of Confusion (non-stacking from same anchor, like the debuff anchors), to all targets within X range every Y seconds. Toggled controls are very under-utilized material, in fact, the only one I can think of is Telekinesis, which is also extremely annoying due to the nasty Repel effect.


@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))
Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk View Post
Defeating critters in Dark Astoria, whether street sweeping or the critters inside DA missions, will give you both Physical and Psychic Incarnate XP, and chances to get threads on each defeat. Completing the one-off Repeatable Missions available in the zone will allow you to gain Threads. Completing the Incarnate Story arcs will allow you to obtain Incarnate Components, Incarnate Merits, or Threads, with some amount of time-gating per reward per arc. Incarnate Story arcs can also be flashbacked via Ouroboros, allowing you to repeat them at your own pace (and allowing you to re-earn rewards after your cooldown on that choice has elapsed).
That sounds like a good mix of rewards for the different activities.

Are you able to tell us if the whole Banished Pantheon group is getting a visual makeover, or are there just going to be new enemy types added to the group for Incarnates to fight?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
At this point we're tweaking dials until we're happy with where the archetype is in general. This change isn't intended to put them in an absolute place. But, I'd like to have this change make Stalkers more competitive in the single target damage arena.

Synapse
That's all I want as well


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar View Post
On Dark Affinity:
+Regen/Recovery for defeated foes doesn't sound like it will be practical in a combat environment, because they won't have noticeable effects until the majority of the enemy is dead unless the buff magnitude is extremely high, due to the nature of the beast with those two attributes, and by the time the majority of a spawn is dead... they're not really helpful attributes. Sure, maybe it will reduce down-time at low levels when everyone is sucking wind due to poor slotting (assuming this even ends up available at low levels?), but towards the higher end of the game it sounds pretty useless to me.
This will really depend on the numbers - not only the amount of +regen, but also the recharge and duration. If it can be made permanent or near-perma, and provides solid +regen with a typical x8 spawn's worth of minions, it will be fantastic in high end play. The point in this case wouldn't be to reduce down-time, it would be to have a layered mitigation buff to one of the less-easily boosted layers (regeneration) going into the next mob.

The +recovery aspect I suspect will be less useful by late game for buffing the team, since most folks work out their own endurance issues. However, it might prove very handy for the user's personal end management and provide more build flexibility.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
That sounds like a good mix of rewards for the different activities.

Are you able to tell us if the whole Banished Pantheon group is getting a visual makeover, or are there just going to be new enemy types added to the group for Incarnates to fight?
I'm hoping for the former. The BP should really have a more varied design at every level. The X-shamans should all look different besides just the name and what powers they bust out. Change all the tiki masks and tiki bosses to be different, keep the 'mask' theme but make each one wildly different, borrow from different mythologies.

Though I am kind of expecting more of the DA crew to have their look influenced by Mot.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
Replace is not the word I would use. I would say Darkness Control is coming out I22 and Illusion Control is not.
Why can't you proliferate this? Balance? Why?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
Stalkers with defensive builds are more likely to be able to use an Assassin Strike from hide. That is no different than it is on live currently. The intent now is to allow everyone to use Assassin Strike regardless if they're in hide or not. The out of hide Assassin Strike should benefit all secondary sets relatively equally as it isn't interruptible.

Synapse
Ahhh, I think I misunderstood the part where AS out of hid is /not/ interruptible.

But ... I still don't think I'm a stalker person. The AT seems to have been designed around the idea that the game has a single target, tactical component that never caught on with the players.

See also: recent epic threads about KB.


 

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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
My DM character is so strong I shrug about Black Hole.
I expect that's why they haven't fixed it; /Dark is already very strong, so figuring out how to make Blck Hole useful without making the set outright overpowered is hard.


Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
Replace is not the word I would use. I would say Darkness Control is coming out I22 and Illusion Control is not.
I hope you mean that Illusion Control is not coming with I22 and rather just "not". I still dream of an Illusion Control Dominator, specially now that pairing it up with Dark Assault is a possibility.