Unanswered Pummit Questions
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-11-19 19:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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It is a poor design. Even without the mez resistance, you'd need about 20 doms or trollers capable of breaking PTOD levels of magnitude in order stack 1000 magnitude on a target. That's a pretty unlikely case unless a league decides to pursue that goal at the detriment of having a more balanced crew. Surely, there's some middle ground but they shot for an easy solution in just ruling out mezzes.
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
The fact that all of the Incarnate trial bosses have Mag 1000 protection and 10,000% resistance against all Mez effects tells me that the devs have absolutely no idea how to make stackable mezzes useful and balanced in large-team content.
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My objection is ever so slightly different from where people have been taking this. My objection is that the entirely Boolean nature of Mez Effects means that there's practically no gradiations of impairment between No Effect and Total Effect. Combat performance doesn't "degrade" in a meaningful way as damage gets racked up, or Mez Effects stacked on. Every single power and capability you have works exactly the same, and is just exactly as accurate and damaging, whether you're at 1% or 100% HP.
CoH has no real proper concept of Fighting While Wounded ... where you're not running at 100% effectiveness. There's no "stacking up of impairments" which degrades your combat performance on a sliding scale ... there's basically just On/Off. You're either Mezzed, or you're Not. You're either Alive and fighting, or Defeated and not fighting back. Everything and everyone is just a big Bucket O' Hit Points, and you're just fighting at Maximum Effectiveness until you ... aren't.
Granted, there are some Debuffs that work (kinda) like this ... such as -Recharge or -Regen or -Recovery (sorta), and a few others ... but they are often limited and very difficult to stack into "useful" quantities without succumbing to the "All or Nothing" level of effectiveness.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Just to throw something out here...
This game lacks a basic principle form most MMO's in that regardless of what AT/Class you play, you get some form of defense/resistance... This game doesnt do that very well for all ATs. But this is also what makes it fun, different and special from the rest.
One thing I can't get over/undertsand though, is why cant my Psi/Psi Blaster, or Mind/Emp Controller, or Mind/Psi Dominator not have natural resistance to Psionic Powers? What I just trained to be a ppowerful psychic and not learn to defend myself? bleh
:P
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Its because this game separates offense and defense as virtually always a separate skill or ability. In reality, or comic book reality, it sometimes is and sometimes isn't. Its often the case the super strong people are also somewhat invulnerable, because otherwise they'd hurt their hands every time they punched something. But just because you're good with a gun, doesn't make you bulletproof: being good with a gun and buying a bulletproof vest are two different completely independent things.|
Originally Posted by Teeko
One thing I can't get over/undertsand though, is why cant my Psi/Psi Blaster, or Mind/Emp Controller, or Mind/Psi Dominator not have natural resistance to Psionic Powers? What I just trained to be a ppowerful psychic and not learn to defend myself? bleh
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This game doesn't really have a good way to represent that sometimes yes sometimes no linkage. It tries in rare circumstances like Parry/Divine Avalanche, but for the most part as a gaming convention learning or gaining the ability to use something offensively and defensively are different. And they come with gameplay restrictions. If you have a character that you want to have psionic blasts, you can do that. If you want a character with good psionic protection, you can take Willpower. Can't take both. That unfortunately runs into the same rule that prevents blasters from armoring up and becoming ranged scrappers.
I think at the beginning of time there was a germ of an idea to do something like that: have characters take core abilities and branch out from there. But that quickly devolved into the open system in Alpha, and then tossed aside in the archetype revamp in Beta, which is basically what we have now.
Pretty much by definition this game doesn't claim to be able to represent *everything* in comics: in fact quite a lot of comic book power platters are game-breakingly powerful or too synergistic to be balanceable, so they get tossed. We can do Wolverine because he's limited by range, which is important in an MMO. We can't do Superman, because he's won the superpower lottery. We can't really do Iron Man because even though he might have weaknesses Superman lacks, they aren't weaknesses easily represented in this game.
The reason you can get away with this in the Champions PnP game is because even if your weakness is lactose intolerance, a smart GM will make you pay full price for it. Its not just that a smart GM can scale content up to any player in terms of numbers to take advantage of your weaknesses, a smart GM can change the conditions of victory to neutralize your strengths as well. That's what comic book authors can do, that MMO game engines can't do. And honestly, most MMO players wouldn't accept either.
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What I want to know is why CoH can go from Superhero MMO to let's open it up to all types of comics...
Superhero
Detectice Noir
Post Apocalypse
Horror
Ect...ect...
But then you mention the idea of manga and it's "OMG! NO!"
Yeah, you can kinda create it, but when asking for stuff that centers around it a bit more...GAAAAH!
"What?! Ninja's with frickin huge swords?! I can't wrap my head around that!"
"What?! Short skirts?! Weird hairstyles?! Yada yada yada..."
Makes absolutely no sense to me. Id like to hear a reason for it. 
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Ethnocentrism/xenophobia (at least for NA players). It's not an "American" genre, but an Asian one.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
What I want to know is why CoH can go from Superhero MMO to let's open it up to all types of comics...
Superhero Detectice Noir Post Apocalypse Horror Ect...ect... But then you mention the idea of manga and it's "OMG! NO!" Yeah, you can kinda create it, but when asking for stuff that centers around it a bit more...GAAAAH! "What?! Ninja's with frickin huge swords?! I can't wrap my head around that!" "What?! Short skirts?! Weird hairstyles?! Yada yada yada..." Makes absolutely no sense to me. Id like to hear a reason for it. |
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What'd be interesting would be letting -resistance effect Mez resistance as well.
The Only Token Black Guy
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Originally Posted by Murdok
Your mom's real name is Castle.
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Its not just that: its that manga is as much more of a visual style than a thematic one. Horror doesn't dictate a precise style of appearance. Its not like people specifically ask for an entire storyline with nothing but Cthulu minions. Horror, Superhero, Post-apocalyptic, are all thematic genres that aren't locked into a specific visual style.|
Originally Posted by gec72
Ethnocentrism/xenophobia (at least for NA players). It's not an "American" genre, but an Asian one.
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It would be like asking for more Todd McFarlane superheroes. Or to pick a one with comparable controversy, it would be like asking for more Rob Liefeld superheroes.
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There are powers that affect mez strength: Benumb and Weaken in particular. However that only affects mez protection powers, not base mez protection baked into the archetype. So you could debuff a troll running integration, but you cannot reduce the intrinsic mag 3 protection that bosses have with that kind of debuff.|
Originally Posted by Swansu
What'd be interesting would be letting -resistance effect Mez resistance as well.
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Allowing actual -resistance powers to also debuff mez protection doesn't sound like a good idea to me. -Res is already a highly valued debuff, and it already helps offense a lot. Having it also reduce mez protection seems like functional overloading.
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It is yes, but I'm also thinking of some of the other conventions which you're more likely to see in manga.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its not just that: its that manga is as much more of a visual style than a thematic one. Horror doesn't dictate a precise style of appearance. Its not like people specifically ask for an entire storyline with nothing but Cthulu minions. Horror, Superhero, Post-apocalyptic, are all thematic genres that aren't locked into a specific visual style.
It would be like asking for more Todd McFarlane superheroes. Or to pick a one with comparable controversy, it would be like asking for more Rob Liefeld superheroes. |
To name one that has come up more recently. Ninja's with huge frikkin swords! Stalker's getting access to them was first considered "OMG! WHAT? It doesn't make sense!" and there's still people who groan about it.
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Doesn't that infer that any visual style, irrespective of what it actually is, constitutes a controversy? I'd go on to specify "any visual style different from ours," but City of Heroes spawns rather quite a few styles to the point where describing it as just having ONE seems inaccurate.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its not just that: its that manga is as much more of a visual style than a thematic one. Horror doesn't dictate a precise style of appearance. Its not like people specifically ask for an entire storyline with nothing but Cthulu minions. Horror, Superhero, Post-apocalyptic, are all thematic genres that aren't locked into a specific visual style.
It would be like asking for more Todd McFarlane superheroes. Or to pick a one with comparable controversy, it would be like asking for more Rob Liefeld superheroes. |
Rob Leifeld aside (I actually like his artwork), there's nothing inherent in the anime style that's dependent on specific visuals. I know you're aware, but anime is not defined by giant eyes, spiky hair or bad dubs. In fact, with its cross into 3D, the anime style is currently one of the most realistic-looking out there, despite its bizarre themes, and the latest Final Fantasy games are nothing if not evidence to this.
When people ask to borrow from anime, they're not asking to hacksaw piece off and staple them to this game. We are typically asking for broader conceptual constructs. "Big swords" is, more often than not, a concept associated with anime for no reason other than that's just where it appears most often, but it's not something that's alien to comic books just because it's appeared in Japan. Anime is not a "disease" and concepts that have appeared in anime are not "tainted," yet that's precisely how people treat them. It's to the point where I have to pick my words carefully, because if I avoid any mention of anime when describing a proposed concept, I meet with general acceptance, whereas if I own up and quote my inspiration, I meet with scorn and mockery in large part.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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But you have to see it before you can complain about it. The question (as I interpreted it) was why anime draws more criticism. The answer is, among other things, because it can. When I ask for more horror, you have no target for your criticism.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Doesn't that infer that any visual style, irrespective of what it actually is, constitutes a controversy?
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there's nothing inherent in the anime style that's dependent on specific visuals. I know you're aware, but anime is not defined by giant eyes, spiky hair or bad dubs. In fact, with its cross into 3D, the anime style is currently one of the most realistic-looking out there, despite its bizarre themes, and the latest Final Fantasy games are nothing if not evidence to this. When people ask to borrow from anime, they're not asking to hacksaw piece off and staple them to this game. We are typically asking for broader conceptual constructs. "Big swords" is, more often than not, a concept associated with anime for no reason other than that's just where it appears most often, but it's not something that's alien to comic books just because it's appeared in Japan. Anime is not a "disease" and concepts that have appeared in anime are not "tainted," yet that's precisely how people treat them. It's to the point where I have to pick my words carefully, because if I avoid any mention of anime when describing a proposed concept, I meet with general acceptance, whereas if I own up and quote my inspiration, I meet with scorn and mockery in large part. |
I was specifically responding to gec72 who suggested that this was an ethnocentric thing: anime is associated with "asian" and so its discriminated against. I don't think that is true. It think its associated with a specific artistic style, and that's why its discriminated against. Just like when you say "comic book" most people think "Superman" not "Maus."
Lots of other metaphors are associated with asian media and don't generate nearly as strong a reaction. The dual-wielding pistol fighter is most recently an asian thing, ala John Woo, but it doesn't generate a strong anti-asian sentiment.
I think the Marvel Anime stuff borrows from anime in the way you describe: from a broader artistic base than most people associate with anime, in a way that translates American content into that style. But its still stylized, and because its stylized, it will tend to draw more criticism than something that doesn't have a stylized form.
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You're right, my assessment was probably too strong. Speaking from my own bias against anime, it's not just that it's Asian. Part of it comes from my preconceived notions of a style where everything seems exaggerated - how the characters are drawn (large eyes, heads, hair, weapons), their characterizations, their expressions (even in American cartoons like Avatar and Teen Titans that seem to have an anime influence - when surprised or excited characters can open their mouths as large as their heads). Banter that is choppy and obnoxious (basically, the "Blast Ketchup" parody in Johnny Test). Then there is some of the subject matter, which may not be a good representation of the genre but is what comes to mind anyway - characters who are weapons, characters who change gender, the "Bludgeoning Angel" someone brought up here in the past, tentacles, yaoi. Combine all of this and I think "wow, this is all something that culturally, I just don't get, and I'm not particularly sure I ever want to."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I was specifically responding to gec72 who suggested that this was an ethnocentric thing: anime is associated with "asian" and so its discriminated against. I don't think that is true. It think its associated with a specific artistic style, and that's why its discriminated against. Just like when you say "comic book" most people think "Superman" not "Maus."
Lots of other metaphors are associated with asian media and don't generate nearly as strong a reaction. The dual-wielding pistol fighter is most recently an asian thing, ala John Woo, but it doesn't generate a strong anti-asian sentiment. I think the Marvel Anime stuff borrows from anime in the way you describe: from a broader artistic base than most people associate with anime, in a way that translates American content into that style. But its still stylized, and because its stylized, it will tend to draw more criticism than something that doesn't have a stylized form. |
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That's part of what I try to correct people on. "Anime" is not any one style, theme or approach. Trying to describe what "anime" constitutes is as futile an attempt as trying to describe what "Western animation" constitutes, when it can constitute anything from Tom & Jerry to the Lion King to Heavy Metal 2000 to Felix the Cat: The Movie. Avatar: The Last Airbender and Teen Titans borrow from chibi and otherwise exaggerated comedic anime that is, to be honest, nowhere near as bizarre or exaggerated as something like Ed, Edd 'n Eddy. Transgender stories and tentacle hentai are less a function of anime and more a function of Japanese culture being both more obsessed with fetishes and more open to them, but that's really not restricted to the Japanese. Plenty of Western artists are just as eneamoured with unusual sexual themes, Jay Naylor being the first one that comes immediately to mind as one of the more prominent and more skilled.|
Originally Posted by gec72
You're right, my assessment was probably too strong. Speaking from my own bias against anime, it's not just that it's Asian. Part of it comes from my preconceived notions of a style where everything seems exaggerated - how the characters are drawn (large eyes, heads, hair, weapons), their characterizations, their expressions (even in American cartoons like Avatar and Teen Titans that seem to have an anime influence - when surprised or excited characters can open their mouths as large as their heads). Banter that is choppy and obnoxious (basically, the "Blast Ketchup" parody in Johnny Test). Then there is some of the subject matter, which may not be a good representation of the genre but is what comes to mind anyway - characters who are weapons, characters who change gender, the "Bludgeoning Angel" someone brought up here in the past, tentacles, yaoi. Combine all of this and I think "wow, this is all something that culturally, I just don't get, and I'm not particularly sure I ever want to."
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But that's not all there is to anime, however. Actual dramatic works that draw on folklore and philosophy also exist, and their artwork is rarely exaggerated. Ghost in the Shell is an easy example, as most of that movie is about two steps removed from being photo-realistic despite the stylised artwork, and which deals with much more erudite themes. Almost anything by Hayao Miyazaki has a distinct, somewhat realistic art style and manages to approach even fantastical problems in a grounded, believable way. In fact, something like Grave of the Fireflies is probably closer to a war drama, despite being animated. Yeah, there's also a lot of crap like Mad Bull 34 and Angel Cop, to say nothing of Legend of the Overfiend, but then no genre is without its schlock.
What I'm trying to say is that anime is not a genre so much as it is a medium. It's impossible to "know" anime like it's impossible to "know" live-action movies. That's not a knowable collection, it's just a basic description. There are, in my opinion at least, many elements and themes that City of Heroes can borrow from many anime movies, series and OVAs without actually turning City of Heroes into an anime. Titan Weapons are, to my eyes, a very good example of this. The basic concept of a giant weapon is primarily an anime trope, yes, just because most fictional animes operate on less stringent laws on believability. But that doesn't mean that City of Heroes can't have giant weapons if done properly and in keeping with the rules of the art style chosen. And having seen Titan Weapons on Beta, I can safely say that the team did a great job. Obviously, the set won't appeal to everybody, but that's true of pretty much every set ever added. What it most certainly WON'T do is turn City of Heroes into an anime. We might see a rush of Cloud Strife clones, but that'll die off as fast as it starts, just like the fear of Drizzit clones with Dual Blades and the fear of Green Arrow clones with Archery and so forth.
Anime in general is not the problem. It's an innocent source of inspiration. It's how you adapt this inspiration that defines whether or not drawing from it will work, because you really can't just take chunks of other people's work and hammer them into your game. That just never works, but that's also never really what people do when adapting foreign inspiration.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Just curious, what other inspirations from anime are we seeking that isn't specifically the style itself? Okay, we've got big-swords ninja and I guess ninjas that *EXPLODE!* or use flashy powers. What else?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Anime in general is not the problem. It's an innocent source of inspiration. It's how you adapt this inspiration that defines whether or not drawing from it will work, because you really can't just take chunks of other people's work and hammer them into your game. That just never works, but that's also never really what people do when adapting foreign inspiration. |
Asking because I'm waiting for my coffee to cool and I'm drawing a blank. I guess I could use more costumes with buckles in places you don't need buckles...but that's not so much anime....I mean, it's not like 'lots of buckles' is to anime as 'lots of pouches' is to Liefeld...
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To me, anime has a few interesting concepts, though how many of those can work here or we don't already have is debatable. The one I can think of off-hand is the "big but also fast." I seems like in Western stories, strength and speed are inversely proportioned, either as a shot at balance or because greater strength usually equals greater weight and size, which hampers speed and dexterity. In a lot of anime, that's not really the case. Because "power" is either spiritual or down to inexplicable tech a lot of the time, the overall most powerful character is both the strongest AND the fastest.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Just curious, what other inspirations from anime are we seeking that isn't specifically the style itself? Okay, we've got big-swords ninja and I guess ninjas that *EXPLODE!* or use flashy powers. What else?
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Where this most usually comes up (at least for me) is in terms of weapon size and weapon selection. Anime weapon choice can often be very unorthodox, and I don't mean things like Final Fantasy 8's wrist-mounted dog launcher. Things like cutting wires, double-bladed swords, awkward scythes and more are often seen being used as melee weapons despite their high degree of impracticality. To some degree, you could argue that that's style, I'm really not referring to any specific weapon type in particular, just the concept of characters who, through exotic fighting styles and unorthodox super powers, are able to use an awkward weapon proficiently.
In generally, though, you are correct. There isn't all that much in terms of concept that's wholly specific to anime, and not just because much of anime apes Western animation anyway. That's kind of why I don't think the genre deserves the stigma it gets from people who I swear have only ever seen the horrible dub of the padded DBZ show and probably seen some of the weirder hentai dubs, like those of La Blue Girl. There isn't all that much in anime that we haven't seen elsewhere, so if I happen to like the hat that D wears in Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust, I really don't want to be afraid to mention the anime by name.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Warning: Tv Tropes links ahead|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Just curious, what other inspirations from anime are we seeking that isn't specifically the style itself? Okay, we've got big-swords ninja and I guess ninjas that *EXPLODE!* or use flashy powers. What else?
Asking because I'm waiting for my coffee to cool and I'm drawing a blank. I guess I could use more costumes with buckles in places you don't need buckles...but that's not so much anime....I mean, it's not like 'lots of buckles' is to anime as 'lots of pouches' is to Liefeld... |
Costumes: Qipao
Visual Effects: Diagonal Cut, Swirling Dust, Flash Step
Powers: Super Mode, Combination Attack, Wave Motion Gun
Storylines: Tournament Arc, Always Save the Girl, Heroic Resolve
Sound Effects: Ominous Latin Chanting
Enemies: One-Winged Angel
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
In addition, I'd love to see a number of ethnic neighborhoods added to Paragon and the Rogue Isles, especially an Asian one with signage in various Asian languages, a high school with a fenced rooftop, Torii, at least one more member of WISDOM, and The Thing that goes Doink.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Sam,
Stop posting the names of the stuff you've seen. I consider you peculiar as it is, don't make me think too much harder on your character >_>
Kitsune,
I'm gonna kill you for posting so many TV tropes links...although thankfully I'd had read half those already but it only takes one link you haven't read so....yeah, watch your back 
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NINJA VANISH!|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Sam,
yeah, watch your back |
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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For me personally, it's costume pieces that you're more likely to see in an anime, than in a western comic or you know, in RL!
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Just curious, what other inspirations from anime are we seeking that isn't specifically the style itself? Okay, we've got big-swords ninja and I guess ninjas that *EXPLODE!* or use flashy powers. What else?
Asking because I'm waiting for my coffee to cool and I'm drawing a blank. I guess I could use more costumes with buckles in places you don't need buckles...but that's not so much anime....I mean, it's not like 'lots of buckles' is to anime as 'lots of pouches' is to Liefeld... |
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Because disproportioned female hips is to Liefeld as cosplay is to BrandX?
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Hey, my main is a cosplayer! |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Because disproportioned female hips is to Liefeld as cosplay is to BrandX?
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Firemoth brought up a good idea in another thread, bishi style looks for males!
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My idea would be to randomize status effects- the attacker has to roll higher than the target's resistance to that status effect, which would differ based on Archetype. Tankers would have high resistance while Blasters lower. However, each time you successfully resist a mez, your resistance is debuffed for a short time (make you more susceptible to multiple mezzers), and each time your are hit with a mez, you resistance is increased for a short time (so you shouldn't be chain-held/knockbacked/etc.)
Enemies could use a similar system, removing the need for "purple triangles" and making battles more interesting.
That's actually not impossible. Suppose I were to make a critter with mag 1000 protection to hold. But then I give it a resistance power that buffs it 10% res(all) and set it to have a special Requires clause: if self>hold < -999 then effect. If someone lands a mag 3 hold on that AV, their hold mag will rise from -1000 to -997. They would still be completely unmezzed. However, that 10% res power would shut off. Hold magnitude on that AV would be higher than -999 (-997) and that effect would then stop.
Consider stacking such effects on a target. You could have mez strip resistance off a target bit by bit in theory. You could also, with a little more trickery, cause holds to turn off one attack but not another. There's lots of things you can do if you want to put time into playing that sort of game with the game's mechanics.
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