Unanswered Pummit Questions

Sweet! And I like the idea.

Two problems.

1. There are very few -Damage buffs in game, so for the most part, excluding -recharge debuffs, the only thing this is doing is improving survivability, which is not something Tankers are in dire need of. Bringing more personal survivability to the table doesn't make Tankers more attractive to people who would not normally not play them, it just reinforces the role they are pigeonholed into after we spent a couple pages discussing how being too specialized has hurt Scrappers and Tankers.

2. Second, Tankers draw aggro. The other ATs aren't usually going to be crippled by debuffs because the Tanker is mostly the target of those debuffs. Your suggestion doesn't allow the Tanker to remain strong when everyone else is faltering, it just lets the Tanker falter slightly less while everyone else is oblivious. If anything, if you want to improve the Tanker's lot in life in regards to being debuffed, they should have a power that dumps all aggro onto a selected friendly target and forces them to be attacked, like the Energy Blaster who keeps scattering groups.


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Or that, why not? My reason for suggesting this being "on kill" is to make it controllable by the player, but still not make it trivial to achieve. And to "get the kill" could mean many different things depending on how it's handled. I just want to ensure that the Stalker didn't just tag ten enemies and then proceeded to get Hide after Hide on the one AV as his team slowly wipes out the rest of the tagged minions via AoE collateral damage. I wanted to reward the Stalker for his single-target damage by giving him benefits from taking down single targets, provided single-target damage is the point.

The "kill stealing equation" for deciding whether an outdoor kill counts to your kill count for street hunting missions is already in place. If you and someone not on your team attack the same enemy, you only get credit for it if you do a certain amount of damage. I don't know what amount this is, and I know for a fact that both people can get credit for the same kill despite being on different teams, so I'm thinking of something like that.

Now, this has the problem of detracting from the Stalker's ability to hide on a team which is very proficient damage-wise, so a Hide on a critical might not be a bad idea.

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Alternately, we could do a sliding scale thing. Every attack a Stalker does has some percent chance to Hide him, and the more attacks he throws out, the higher his chance to Hide becomes, until it reaches 100%. When he actually rehides in any way, this chance is once more reset. Mechanically, this would give the Stalker a chance to hide on every attack AND a "streakbreaker" sort of thing to ward against bad luck.

Conceptually, we're saying the following: A Stalker doesn't like a stand-up fight, so with every attack, he will attempt to deal damage AND distract his enemies so he could elude their sight and attack them from behind. The longer the fight goes on, the more the enemy plays into the Stalker's trap and the easier it becomes to confuse them.

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Alternately-alternately, do you know what would punch Stalker spike damage through the roof? Replacing Build Up with 10 seconds of completely uninterruptible Hide, kind of like how Titan Weapons has 10 seconds of Momentum instead of Build Up. Throw this on, and you get 10 seconds of 2.0 scale melee attacks, effectively. Want to talk about stupid damage? That's stupid damage. Those 10 seconds will turn a relatively middle-of-the-road damage dealer into a monster for the duration.

A damage buff (80% for a Stalker) is applied cumulatively with other damage buffs and enhancements. A well-slotted Stalker attack typically has 100% damage slotting for a total of 200% its base damage. 80% on top of that doesn't even add 1/2 more, so its benefit is relatively limited. A critical hit isn't a damage buff, it's a whole other damage component which benefits from enhancements and damage buffs on its own, so a 200% attack with a critical becomes a 400% damage attack.

Want to break the system even more? Up critical damage to 150% of the power's base damage, make Build Up let us score guaranteed criticals, then have it add a damage buff on top of that. Now we're talking sick burst damage. Right?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

We, I did say it was poorly thought out, it was mainly for thematic reasons of having Tankers not just be hard to drop but also hard to slow down in any way. However, I was thinking less of -damage (as you rightly say, theres not that much of it about) and more of -recharge, -tohit, -end, -speed, basically anything that degrades their offensive capacity. At the very least, it'd be cool :-)

EDIT: Although, thinking about it, probably only debuff protection from those things and not for defensive stuff would be more appropriate.

You've got it backwards.

You never needed to back out and wait 8 seconds for Hide in the middle of battle...that's what Placate is for. Sure, you're being rewarded for getting the drop on unsuspecting foes...but with the proposed changes, you're getting rewarded *more* for attacking indiscriminately. The only thing you don't get for that is Demoralize which then you have to weigh a *possible* 25% 30ft range mag 4 terrorize + unresitable unstackable -7% ToHit vs [X] increase in burst + DPS (I'll leave that [X] for the number gurus to crunch out).

You say a hide AS does more damage, but that's only if you're looking at the big orange number over the target's head. You have to neglect the time spent exectuting the attack vs how much dmg you could fit in the same window. Because, if you weren't aware, Assassin's Strike does not one-shot bosses or Lts passed a certain level...it's always BU > AS > Placate > Hard Hitter or BU > AoE > Attack Chain or some other combo of powers....it's never just one click and it never will be.

That AS can do [Y] points more damage for its one click doesn't tell even half the story...

Personally, I don't even like calling Stalkers a 'stealth AT'...and I won't. If people actually listened to me, and formed a Leo_G cult where they copied every word I say and put a 'o_G' at the end of every post, then everyone would be calling Stalker an Ambush AT...because that's what I think their whole appeal is...they can bumrush a target by focusing all they got into one blow...

Hell, if we could, I'd love to make Stalkers better burst ATs by taking away their BU power, making it an inherent power and simply calling it 'Bum Rush'...so if the melee set had Siphon Power, or Soul Drain or Follow Up...or Build up...the set would still have it but then you'd also get 'Bum Rush' as your 'ambush buff'. Then you can do both surgical strikes and DPS...

Anyway, yeah, Stalkers are an Ambush AT...even if the foe knows you're there and coming for you, it doesn't really matter...you just need to attack *faster* to get the drop on an ambush. That's the whole idea of an ambush so you just need to strike first...

And yeah I yelled at you until you got the idea that Stalkers should scrap, but that's just common sense, really. That doesn't mean I think that should be the main rewarding feature of the AT...because this new change rewards that and only that (and overwhelmingly so, IMO)...


That said, all the ideas posted, while interesting, I think you're not going to get enough people behind you to get it up for testing...frankly, the devs sound pretty intrigued by their own approach. I'm curious to test it too, but I still hold out that it just overly rewards scrapping *at the cost* of rewarding ambushing. I'd just like some of that reward shifted so it's an equal reward for either.


Again, to modify the dev's own approach:

-Make hidden AS 1sec and uninterruptible, doing max dmg and demoralize. Make hide > AS and placate > AS premiere to the AT.
-Make unhidden AS 3sec and interruptible.
-Add Assassin's Focus build up to 5. The first stack making unhidden AS uninterruptible and the last stack dropping the animation down to 1 second.

Note: just making AS uninterruptible out of hide (using Assassin's Focus) would be a great buff by itself. But it wouldn't make it the main noteworthy tactic of a stalker mid-combat, which is how it should be, IMO. Making it so constant combat improves your assassination abilities is the key.

And some other things...:
-Can we just drop the whole scaling crit thing? It's rather unneeded if we've got Assassin's Focus.
-Roll Assassin's Focus as if it were the scaling crit bonus. Each stack = +4.6% crit bonus to all your attacks. Give Assassin's Strike a better bonus, maybe somewhere like 50-75% crit chance from a full 5 stacks of attacks. That way, if you're on a purely DPS objective, you don't need teamates to achieve high DPS, just stack AF and don't stop attacking...pop AS when you max stack it and start again.

Note: it feels like all the gimmicks stacked on Stalkers is too convoluted (Hide, Placate, Assassin's Strike, scaling crits, Demoralize, Assassin's Focus). Cut some of the fat, namely the newly added scaling crits, and just roll that into other things...or just get rid of it entirely and replace it with Assassin's Focus.

The whole 'kill foe gets Stalker a reward' idea was namely something I cobbled together from when Castle was making suggestions for the new Blaster Defiance. He had put forth the idea that killing foes would buff the blaster which told me 'hey, so they have tech for that...how could that be used for stalkers?' Well, Synapse is aiming for a different approach. If he wants to change that approach is up to him, but I'm just making suggestions in-line with what he's already planning...

That seems to me to make AS from Hidden status the damage delivery focus. But I find Hidden status problematic, because AoEs are anathema Hidden status. For example, plenty of critters use DoT damage patches, and even when these are not auto-hit, and even at the defense softcap, even one tick will ruin your hidden status. In large team or league content these are often stacked multiple times. Cimeroran Engineers. WarWorks and their toxic fire patch. Knives of Artemis. When fighting foes like these I find I just can't stay hidden, because I'm constantly being pecked by damage.

Even if mechanics are added to rehide you more easily, you won't remain hidden around foes like this. If you aren't operating at the softcap, which certainly shouldn't be the focus of the AT design, this becomes more pronounced.

I'm sure this sort of thing is why the devs added scaling critical hits. They were trying to give Stalkers a damage mechanic that wasn't reliant on Hidden, because Hidden is hard to maintain.

I see the new mechanic as another variation on that. I think it's a good direction, not because I want Hidden to be watered down, but because Hidden doesn't seem to work well in the context of the other game mechanics in play.

I'm worried that your suggestion would be even more confounding, because if you're being kept from being hidden you don't get uninterruptable AS, but if you're being unhidden by damage you're also being kept from delivering the longer-activating, interruptable AS while unhidden. So the suggestion above sounds like a double whammy in content rich in incoming AoE damage.

Edit: Can I ask why we want to remove scaling crits? I don't think I like the idea of people asking for a performance improvement, no matter how modest, to be removed because they don't find it thematically appealing. I happen to play a lot of content where I suspect it comes into play - team dogpiles, either on AVs or on large spawns. Assassin's Focus only improves single-target DPS. If you have a powerset with AoEs, scaling crits improves that also.

And that is what Assassin's Focus is for.

Thinking of the AT as using ambush tactics, it's hard to damn someone, even if they are an NPC, for having anti-ambush tactics. Even then, there means to bypass those tactics such as making the foe come to you, rushing them faster or placate.

That said, you seem to perceive the idea in absolutes. Just because AS from hidden status is premiere doesn't mean that is your only tactic. Heck, Assassin's Focus tells you the opposite, that *it* is another option.

Yes, my idea focuses on Assassin's Strike from hidden...but that's only because there are so many things *messed up* with Assassin's Strike from hidden. It's slower than normal melee, it's interruptible and it relies on being hidden. You can tell me what's wrong with AS now and I can try to tell you ways to make it better. That doesn't, however, mean I expect any and all focus of the AT to revolve around that one means of attack. I'm just telling you it can and should be made more attractive than it is now...which is my point: new buffs don't do anything for the ambush tactics of Stalker and it could have...

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Clarification: I'm not asking for scaling crits to be removed, just rolled into Assassin's Focus rather than an aura that requires allies to be within 30ft of you...

That doesn't make sense with Sam's suggestion. Not unless I'm missing something. His suggestion was for AS from Hide to be fast and uninterruptable and AS outside Hide be slow and interruptable. I don't see where Assassin's Focus fits there.

Edit: I see it now, I missed what the next line was doing on the first read through. I have to think about that more.

I don't understand how that's not degrading, potentially to both systems. Do you "spend" focus on crits? Does your bonus crit chance depend on how much focus you have built up? Doesn't using AS then "spend" that? I think I'd need an example.

Smoke Flash is available as a temp power that anyone can get and use. It's not targeted directly, but that's just a timing issue between you and the AoE-KB-happy victi... er, teammate.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Sam made that suggestion? I thought they were discussing alternative suggestions than Synapse's.

But yeah, the thought behind Assassin's Focus is to make unhidden Assassin's Strike better, right? Synapse's idea goes on the branch of AS having no downfalls (and actually being one of your better attacks in the set) as it is fast, quick to recharge and superior damage then having Assassin's Focus make it better by improving its crit chances.

My line of thought is, keep the downfalls of Assassin's Strike when unhidden and have Assassin's Focus improve the quality of AS when used normally. With 0 stacks, AS has a 3sec animation, 2 seconds of it are interruptible, and it only has base effectiveness (10% crit chance). 1 stack could make it uninterruptible by means of giving the player a 1000% interrupt reduction buff or something, 2-4 stacks could improve some stat for it like crit chance or hit chance, and the 5th stack could replace the animation with the hidden version (the 1 second one). IMO, even without the 1sec animation, if unhidden AS wasn't interruptible and had a 50-75% crit chance, it'd still be a particularly good attack for some sets.

And I say some sets. For EM, Elec Melee, Spines and DBs, unhidden Assassin's Strike with the above mentioned (but with 3sec animation), would still get great use out of that attack but within reason. Sets like Claws, MA, StJ or DM might pass on that as they have good ST dmg...that seems quite balanced.

With Synapse's idea, sets like Spines and Elec melee, that were only so-so ST damagers suddenly shoot way past their Brute/Scrapper counterparts (and in the case of Elec melee, it comes with no downfall or counterbalance).

But this is all just feel, for me. I'm going by feel alone and think the proposed change will go too far for some sets and remove what uniqueness Stalkers had with their playstyle.

Eh, it was just an idea. Stalkers are just starting to feel weighed down by its gimmicks.

But to further elaborate on the idea...

My Assassin's Focus boosts your whole melee set:
Stack 1 = +4.6% crit bonus to all attacks; makes AS uninterruptible.
Stack 2 = +4.6% crit bonus to all attacks; +10.4% crit bonus to AS (totalling 15% crit bonus for AS)
Stack 3&4 = same as stack 2
Stack 5 = Hidden AS animation and +4.6% crit bonus to all attacks for a total of +23% crit bonus (base + bonus would be 33% which is what we get with all 7 teammates in range) and about +65% crit chance for AS.

With my idea, as you fight, your Assassin's Focus refreshes with each regular attack and are spent by AS (your regular attacks don't spend it, just refresh it up to 5 and AS empties your points to 0).

Ideally, this isn't better for your regular meleeing with the current scaling crits since the bonus would be dropping off when you use AS. But then remember, the other part of the idea is...AS only animates in 1 sec (with max focus or after placate). One of those, by itself, should cover the loss of DPS (again, going by feel), but add in that 1 stack makes AS uninterruptible and you can get 5 stacks to buff AS's unhidden crit chance to 65%...Think that's enough to cover the loss of DPS over scaling crits?

I'm not sure how that's relevant, considering you typically use Assassin's Strike from hide all of once per combat. In fact, sometimes you don't even get to use that because enemies ambush you, see through your stealth and attack you faster than you can assassinate, which would still be true for a fast Assassin's Strike. If you're looking at it from the aspect of DPA, then no, Assassin's Strike doesn't have good DPA, but as that's typically not part of combat, the only thing that this means is you probably don't want to use Build Up with it.

So, how about this: Why not open with Assassin's Strike and THEN hit Build Up and continue your attack chain from there? You're not getting guaranteed Hidden criticals from AoEs anyway. And if Hidden Assassin's Strike doesn't do enough, why not improve that? Why does Assassin's Strike need to be useless in combat as it is now?

Frankly, if the game did not have a single interruptible attack ever again, I would die a happy man. I HATE getting interrupted. The point of making Assassin's Strike uninterruptible outside of combat was - I firmly believe - to give Stalkers an extra solid attack first and foremost, and this is something which they have sorely lacked for years. Doing anything to take a step back from that is, in my opinion, a crime against the AT. In fact, the gimmick as they are now is just fine in my eyes. It'd love to test it and use it. I DO NOT want to mess with unhidden Assassin's Strike.

If you feel that Hidden Assassin's Strike isn't rewarded enough or isn't good enough, I'd suggest messing with that. Make that uninterruptible, make that faster, make that hit harder, do stuff to that. Punishing Stalkers for fighting outside of Hide is not a good idea, because regaining and maintaining Hide is a pain in the ***, and the game actively seeks to prevent you from doing so. Yes, Placate helps. No, it doesn't help nearly enough. It's on a VERY slow recharge and I usually lose my Hidden status within the Placate animation itself.

IF the Hidden status were uninterruptible, or had a window of uninterruptibility after reapplication and IF I had a much faster means of regaining it than once every 60 seconds, then MAYBE I would consider moving hamstringing Stalkers when not Hidden, but this isn't the case. Moreover, I doubt it will ever be the case. The best I can say for the moment is we should go ahead and just make hidden Assassin's Strike faster and uninterruptible, too.

And while we're at it, we should save Blasters from their HORRIBLE Snipes and give them the Assassin's Strike treatment.

Years ago, at the dawn of CoV, people complained that Stalkers were one-trick ponies, because Assassin's Strike was seen as the one thing they're good for. If you want to improve their first strike capability without loading Assassin's Strike so much it becomes THE Stalker power and mandatory for absolutely every build, then mess with their ways of getting self-damage buffs. As I said - a Build Up which gave Stalkers a 10-second window of guaranteed criticals would do a HELL of a lot more for their burst damage than anything done to Assassin's Strike ever could in a million years.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Well... there are a couple, but at least one dev has posted that one of them is a bug so it's safe to assume that the other is also.

Tell that to Energy Melee, which benefits the least from criticals due to the hardest hitting attacks in the set either not having them, or having them hamstrung by a really old and outdated decision to prevent criticals from going over scale 4.56. Plus the attacks - especially once you add in Assassin's Strike - completely fill a Build Up window.

The proposal is also completely broken by Kinetic Melee, where the critical on the heavy hitter is to recharge Build Up - so you hit Concentrated Strike again during the window and viola! Instant recharge, and CS is the only attack that ever doesn't critical.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

I believe DPA means Damage Per Activation. It's a term that kind of drops off in usefulness, I think, as it basically encapsulates a type of Endurance economy vibe to it. Hidden Assassin's Strike's DPA is actually the highest in the game, if basically it means how much damage can you fit into one button press or for the most efficient amount of endurance. Since hidden AS basically outdoes the damage of anything on a single target (even nukes), it has the best DPA. Now if you're talking about Damage Per Activation Seconds....well, that's basically DPS...

But the reason it's relevant is because of the other part of your paragraph...sometimes you can't pull off a hidden AS. To put it simply, there is a risk involved attempting to pull off that interruptible (moderately) high reward attack vs a non-interruptible attack for a crit.

The BU window only matters if DPS is your game. If that is the case, you won't be using AS from hidden status anymore with the proposed change. You'd be using a high dmg attack that crits (or an AoE) followed by 2 more attacks *THEN* AS after you built focus. The game basically encourages you to not use AS in conjunction with hidden if DPS is your focus therefore encouraging you to skip the other Stalker gimmick, Demoralize.

And I am lobbying for improvements to AS. Have you been listening to anything I'm saying, Sam?

But the thing is, I'm proposing *drastic* changes to it, changes that will make people *want* to ambush that target and pump out hidden AS along with regular combat. No, my changes aren't as drastic as to make you want to outright spam AS like a regular melee attack(lol) but they are drastic...so drastic that they wouldn't be balanced (IMO) to go along side what Synapse is suggesting.

That's why I'm proposing it to others, trying to get their perspective on what I'm saying and keep the gate open for the way stalkers have played since the beginning (no, not the hit-and-run beginnings...).

I think you really need to slow your horses, guys.

You talk about this as if we are guaranteed 1sec 100% crit AS when unhidden right now. What makes you think Synapse, after testing the changes, doesn't scale back his idea? Lower the crit damage portion? Increase the endurance/recharge? Alters it so the animation is something like 2sec vs 1sec?

The thing is, I don't see the posted changes he said are quite balance and may well be scaled back or completely scrapped. I'm *trying* to suggest something that is less likely to be scrapped.

The changes sound pretty, but in all honesty, it'll make sets like Spines and Elec melee absurdly powerful and leave poor MA, EM and DM in the dust. The AoE sets will have good to great ST dmg thanks to unhidden AS + decent to good AoE while the ST sets will have even better ST dmg and crap/no AoE. Of course, my idea doesn't quite change that, but at least it doesn't help the AoE sets by such a ridiculous amount.

Sure! Give Defiance the same uninterruptibility buff! Then they can use those pesky offensive powers that have disrupt times, like trip mines, time bomb, snipes and so forth. It actually puts an emphasis on damage vs the other ATs that get the same powers. Suddenly, those traps and snipes that are scoffed at by Corruptors, Dominators, Defenders, etc. become staples to Blasters and only Blasters. The only problem I see is, well, not every set has a snipe in it...

I still don't understand the opposition.

I'm not trying to improve the first strike capabilities of Stalkers for the sake of improving the AT's specialty role. I'm suggesting to improve the first strike capabilities of Stalkers so as to keep that option attractive in lieu of a change that makes straight combat *more* attractive than previously. Why? Because Stalkers have always seen 'first strikes' as, at least, situationally attractive. Now? Even less situationally attractive...

Years ago, someone (I believe it was Arcana), corrected me on the use of the terms. DPS stands for "Damage Per Second" in the sense of continued damage over time. DPA stands for "Damage Per (second of) Activation" and represents the damage you can pump out with this attack in the span of its activation, so as to pick which attack is best to pick for an attack chain. You need some way to differentiate between damage over time in general and damage over time of activation, because one depends solely on animation and one on animation AND recharge.

I'm not sure why you'd say that. Actually let me illustrate. If Assassin's Strike from Hide deals 7.0 scale damage and Assassin's Strike out of Hide deals 2.76 and both are slotted with, say, 100% damage enhancement, then hidden Assassin's Strike is still stronger than unhidden Assassin's Strike. From Hide, with 100% damage buff, you're hitting for 14.0 scale damage and demoralise. Outside of hide, even on a critical, you're still only hitting for 7.728 WITH Build Up. Yes, hidden Assassin's Strike takes longer to animate, but even without Build Up, it deals nearly twice the damage. I see no reason to not use that first without Build Up, THEN hit Build UP and THEN start attacking.

In fact, you quote AoE-strong sets like Electric Melee, but Electric Melee singularly lacks a decent attack to open with from Hide. It's all AoEs that I almost never "crit" with or pretty damn uninspiring single-target attacks. By foregoing Assassin's Strike from Hide, at best you're coming up to about about the same level of damage, but you do so with more attacks and over a longer period of time. I quite honestly see no reason to not use Assassin's Strike from Hide when it is simply better.

Now, I CAN see an argument that we don't want to use Build Up with Assassin's Strike from Hide, and that actually is a concern of mine - a big one, especially with Dual Blades where Build Up + Assassin's Strike sets up no less than two combos (two combos I won't need to hide for any more, by the way), but that's a question of Assassin's Strike's Hidden DPA and less so a question of gimmicks. I've long believed that an Assassination critical should hit for more damage. Someone mentioned 9.0, and I like it.

You're lobbying for improvements to the Hidden portion of Assassin's Strike at the expense of not lobbying for improvements to the Unhidden portion of the power, at least not to nearly the same extent as Synapse is suggesting. Frankly, if I had a choice, I'd pick a solution which fixes Assassin's Strike's inability to be used more than once per battle over making its Hidden status more appealing. I'd personally like to improve both sides of it, but if I had to only pick one, I'd pick the one that helps me scrap over the one that helps me hide.

Frankly, I've never found myself in a situation where I was hidden and standing next to an enemy and DIDN'T want to use Assassin's Strike from Hide. Not a single time. For me, what Assassin's Strike does now is more than enough to make me want to use it, and indeed enough to make me want to save it a lot of the time. I could see it doing more damage or applying a stronger debuff... Or being AoE, but this doesn't have to come at the expense of the changes proposed.

Frankly, I don't see it. The changes he proposes are hardly overpowered and they still leave many Stalkers dragging their feet for lack of AoE. If anything, Stalkers can use more than the changes, not less.

But even if all of the changes you cite happened, I'd still be perfectly happy to have them if it means I'm able to use Assassin's Strike outside of Hide without doing mental gymnastics. Your suggestion, regardless of anything else, maintains Assassin's Strike's interruptibility outside of combat, and I want that GONE. Dead and forgotten. Few things about this game's mechanics piss me off more than interruptible attacks, and considering my first character to 30 was an AR/Dev Blaster back in 2004, I've had a lot of time to build up ire for this. I do not want to see interruptibility used as a balancing mechanic for anything outside of Rest, and it kind of bugs me even there.

Well, a few have powers that may as well be snipes, but aren't quite. They still take as long as snipes, though. Bitter Ice Blast, Piercing Shot and whatever Sonic Blast had come to mind. Bitter Ice Blast especially. It's a power that does crappy damage, crappy control, costs a bundle and take ages to animate.

I wash my hands of Blasters. The AT is so messed up I don't think it'll ever be straightened up. At least half the original sets feel like they were assembled by some random algorithm that picked powers for a common theme. I don't think anything can ever happen to them to change my mind at this point, just because what it would take is not reasonable.

It's because first strike capability doesn't win fights, but rather makes fights easier. Sooner or later, Stalkers are going to have to scrap, and getting a decent scrapping power is - at least to me - far more valuable than improving their first strike capability, which I find to already be pretty damn good. And if that capability needs to be made more attractive, this should be done by improving said ability, not by making scrapping less attractive or, as you're currently suggestion, overturning a suggestion for making scrapping more attractive.

By your own admission, Stalkers need to scrap. The better they are at it, the happier I'll be. Stalkers also need first strike capability, but one does not have to come at the expense of the other.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Ah, well that makes sense. But all it really does is shift the time span from constant to any specified window, a window of which can skew the numbers depending on how long you choose.

The span of a BU or the span of a boss' lifespan on an 8 man team, it all differs but it all counts the time *you* want to start, not when the boss has become aware of your presence.



For all of that, I direct you to Siolfir's posts about the damage differences of AS hidden and not. I'm not in a position to look up mids', check damage numbers/activations, add them up and compare, point for point damage of what hidden AS > BU > Attack Chain vs BU > Superior Attack > 2 more Attacks > 1sec AS does, but I expect pre buff AS to not be as effective. I can tell by feel alone, and the resulting measures Synapse recently took that it'd be so. There's really no argument; regular pre buff hidden AS > chain of attacks to defeat boss is inferior to just using buffed AS unhidden along with Assassin's Focus. It'd have been true for the span of a boss' life and that is the only important window it'd need to perform at.


Lol, it's moot now anyway. I was right which is why hidden AS went from scale 7 dmg to scale 9. No clue if Synapse even is reading this thread anymore but my guess is he's got me on ignore after the stuff I said in the Stalker TW thread in beta. Even if I made my point, he'd implement a change only so my argument can't stand up anymore in spite of me

Hidden AS will now do more damage than unhidden AS (according to what Siolfir says)...So I can't say that anymore...however, it only does more damage than a non-focused unhidden AS. Still makes me not care if I'm bothering lining up a foe and making careful not to interrupt AS from hide...and still makes placate > AS not particularly worth it (as it's *barely* worth it currently).

Basically, I have to change my argument now which makes me seem finicky and unsure of my stance >_>

Lol, I was only saying 'first strike' to line up with your wording. Nowhere do I specifically focus on the first *one* strike...I talk about AS from hidden which can be initialized with placate which could be used for a 'first strike', 'third strike' or nth strike of an encounter. You just choose to focus on the one first strike, set up 'run and rehide' as a strawman and mention placate's recharge as some kind of strangle-point to its usefulness. All of that dodges my main point...

It's all moot, though...but I can still say there's no point to placate > AS mid combat though. Before, it was the only way to get any meaningful damage from AS, but now, it's what AF will be for. But lower the animation on that and I suppose we'll be golden. The basic rules of an Stalker's encounter will be set:

-Attempt AS at the start if possible.
-Only use AS after 2+ regular attacks.
-Never use placate with AS mid-combat.
-Only pair placate with a high-end attack (if placate's animation is indeed dropped to something like 1sec or below).

Doesn't quite leave the status quo, though. Before, taking AS was a choice. Now, it's a must-take. Doesn't particularly reward the main stalker mentality of lining up that AS first though; just scrap and you'll do better on all accounts, just like a scrapper.

Yay.

Um ... Leo? You do realize this is pretty much going against the grain of what Synapse is trying to do ... right?

Hidden AS is (to be) 2 seconds interrupt + 1 second cast time = 3 second animation for nasty damage with auto-critical hit and demoralize.

UNhidden AS is (to be) 1 second cast time and NOT interruptable to allow it to be used while scrapping in mainline combat.



For the record, I'm not all that "keen" on the Assassin's Focus mechanic as presented, because it feels ... Kludgy. I just have the feeling that "there's a better way to do things" than the Assassin's Focus mechanic as presented to us at the Player Summit which would achieve much the same goals. Arcanaville's "Reverse Fury" seems like a much better option (to me, anyway) at first glance.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

Right.

It emphasizes mainline combat by drastically improving scrapping capabilities while sidestepping the surgical strike mentality.

It's all moot. We'll be getting Scrappers instead of Stalkers. But it won't matter, we'll be using AS so that counts as being Stalker!

When's this being put on beta already?

That was a suggestion, not a fact. Unless I missed a dev digest post or something.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

The basic theory behind it (or at least what I have rigged in my spreadsheets) is that when building an attack chain, you first the pick attack with the highest DPA, then try to max its uptime, then add in the one with the next highest DPA and repeat until you exceed 100% total uptime. You then tally up the combined DPS of these attacks and you have your attack chain, plus what you can expect to get out of it.

I find this to be a fairly spacious calculation for myself as I lack the discipline to stick to a specific attack chain and prefer to have a range of tools, but that's why I brought up DPA.

Typically when I speak about DPA, I'm referring to a time window of around 10-15 seconds, which is around the standard "short duration buff" time. How this relates to Assassin's Strike is how it relates to Blaster Snipe powers - am I making good use of my buff, or can I do better? In the case of Fire Blast, Blaze + Fire Blast does more damage in less time than Blazing Bolt, so in that case the answer is "No, I'm actually wasting buff." You'll be unsurprised to learn - if you didn't know already - that a 7.0 scale Assassin's Strike isn't better DPA than a critical scale 2.76 Assassin's Strike.

I've no doubt, but the question is "by how much?" I haven't actually seen Siolfir's calculations, but are they enough to offset the Demoralisation effect? I happen to like that one quite a bit.

Wait, what? When did that happen? I checked the Dev Digest at the start of today and I thought I'd kept up to date on this thread. Did I miss something big?

Currently, I find Placate + Assassin's Strike to only ever be worth it in one-on-one fights, and even then only when done very carefully. I recall applying this against Infernal on multiple occasions, and many of those ending with him hitting me between when my Placate hit and when I could react, him setting me on fire and breaking my Hidden status that way, or him summoning demons and breaking my Hide AND my Assassin's Strike that way.

*edit*
Oh, another funny thing - elite bosses (at least Back Alley Brawler) also resist Placate effects, which have shorter durations on them. The fun part is that this means that your placate is sometimes SHORTER than the interrupt time of your Assassin's Strike from hide, meaning you out and out CAN'T do this against some EBs... And EBs are the biggest reason why you'd want to do this.

Personally, I would not be sad to see Assassin's Strike from Hide become uninterruptible just so it's less of a gamble, but I'm right there with you - it's rarely useful after a Placate unless you're completely in control of the situation, which a Stalker rarely is.

I think we're simply talking past each other in this case. At no point have I ever acknowledged "run and rehide" as a valid strategy since you managed to convince me it's garbage. Not even when Arcana informed me that actual developers have said this (what were they thinking?). When I say "first strike capability" (I think that's what I said), I'm referring to the period between using Build Up at or near the start of a fight and the time when Build Up expires. That's actually why I put relatively little value on Assassin's Strike itself - because while it accounts for a lot, it's not the whole story.

Personally, I do have a habit of firing up Build Up and using Assassin's Strike mostly out of instinct, but you are correct in one aspect: The longer I play Stalkers, the more my instincts tell me that I shouldn't be doing this. It "feels" wrong, in the sense that I'm wasting the buff. It "feels" like I should simply assassinate sans Build Up, fire up Build Up afterwards, hit Placate and then attack.

As to why I find Placate to be such a cornerstone, it's because this is the one tool a Stalker has which produces controlled, predictable criticals at a moment's notice. Hide in general does this, but you can only control your Hidden status once per battle, and that's it. Past the start, you're essentially permanently scrapping with your "Stalker stuff" never coming into play. You argue around Assassin's Strike, but the truth of the matter is that without Placate, you're only ever going to use it once, especially on something like Regeneration or Electric Armour.

In short, if we're talking about Stalker criticals, I'd like those to be easier to score, as opposed to bigger but more rare. If I had the chance to make Assassin's Strike insta-kill against anything I actually hit, but the rest of the AT's attacks meaningless, that might produce the AV killer of legend, but it would still be a boring AT. For a character to be fun to play, that character needs to have something to do constantly, and that something has to be to the character's special skills. As such, a Stalker's special skills need to be effective at all times, not just once per battle or once per 60 seconds. That's why I put so much weight on Placate.

Frankly, I don't see that as a problem. What you describe works more or less how I've always wanted Stalkers to work. It's not exact, of course - there's always wiggle room for the pedantic among us (i.e. me) to nit-pick, but... Yeah, I don't dislike what you describe. In fact, I like it a lot.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Damnit Siolfir! Your post sounded more official than suggestionary...but yeah, if hidden AS did that much dmg, I'd have no real room to complain. >_<

That, and maybe improve demoralize a bit to last 12-15sec vs 8sec...

That has yet to be discussed, AFAIK.

As it has taken me practically watching these threads like a hawk and attempting to convey what is going on through my head, I've *barely* been able to steer discussion to figure how these new changes will make the interruptible AS (and placate) feel/perform when factoring in Assassin's Focus...and Siolfir probably did most of the steering to get us there...so I don't know what I'd have to do to get people to discuss Demoralize...

Take off my shirt, maybe? Dress up in my french maid outfit and tidy up your house for you? Make cookies while I'm at it? Whatever it is, I'm sure it'll be hard work (cause I don't gotz numberz >_>)



Yeah, my bad. I got all uppity when I read Siolfir's post wrong. Not sure if anything more has been discussed about the new changes, but hoping the devs are still looking into adjusting their ideas before implementing them.

Placate is a mag 4 mez, which isn't sufficient magnitude to affect Elite Boss class mobs. Since it's not covered by the purple triangles, you're actually safer fighting an Archvillain/Hero class mob, since they would be affected by Placate when you needed a breather. You just have a lot more hit points to whittle down and they're going to regen almost all of the damage if you actually need to use Placate defensively, so it's harder to kill them.

As for the calculations, they're in the Stalker section scattered around in a few different posts; one of the threads deals specifically with using Placate offensively and whether or not it helps the DPA of the following attack. Not counting the Assassin's Strike powers, there are 11 total powers scattered through 9 primaries (I didn't include APPs, so I left all pool powers alone) where the damage over time is actually helped by using Placate. For everything else, including Assassin's Strike once these changes roll out, the DPA of the followup goes down - whether due to a lower critical chance (most AoEs), lowered damage on the critical, or just Placate's animation time relative to the attack.

Edit:
Link to post #1 with DPA of the unhidden Assassin's Strike and current hidden Assassin's Strike.
Link to post #2 with DPA of current Assassin's Strike after a Placate, including 10% critical chance.
Link to post with the powers where DPA increases following Placate, including % increase.

Note that the first two were written before I read this thread and had to be edited, but I left the original text intact because it shows how I calculated the numbers.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.