Unanswered Pummit Questions
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-11-19 19:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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While this concerns me a bit, I can let that slide for the moment, and instead pose a counter-question:|
Originally Posted by Synapse
For me, ideally I feel that Stalkers should be the single target burst damage kings. Some sets do this better than others and some sets offer some AoE. Your mileage may vary depending on which sets you pair together. However, I'd really like to see Stalkers being able to outperform Scrappers and Brutes in bursts, especially with single target damage. Their trade off as always is survivability.
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If Stalkers are intended to be the best BURST damage dealers, shouldn't their Build Up damage buff (and entire melee damage buff scale) be upped to match that of Scrappers and Blasters? Hell, shouldn't Stalker Build Up be actually stronger than that of other characters? Say, like, 125%?
I know why it was left at the Brute/Tanker 80% self damage buff - back in the day, Stalkers weren't supposed to deal all that much damage outside of Assassin's Strike (they had a damage mod of 0.9) and be squishy (they had Controller hit points), but if you're beefing them up to be actually decent characters now with burst damage as the focus, why no up the power which contributes such a great part of their burst damage?
Alternately, if Build Up can't be made (much) stronger, why not give Stalkers faster recharge on theirs?
*edit*
Fixed a few typos that changed the meaning a bit.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I found the power quite useful in the battle with Lord Recluse. As well as helping with snafu's in pickup groups. Your fighting one group and either someone accidentally picks up another group or there is an ambush. Drop Blackhole on the new people and go back to kicking the others' arses. Granted the fear powers usually works pretty well for that.
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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
... I do agree that blackhole's persistence as a power is kind of baffling, though.
Synapse, is there any chance you can tell us what you think Blackhole's actual PURPOSE is, as a power? Because to date, all of the purported purposes it has have been demonstrated to be not met by the power. |
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I really want a power that mechanically copies the mental image the name brings to me.
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As a villain I used to hunt them in Bloody bay, there're quite a few of them there. I'm all for lowering the target number to a more realistic size though.
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Originally Posted by Seschat
I'm more worried about trying to get the 200 Banished Pantheon masks needed for Eye of the Magus. DA was the only place in the game that this was practical, due to 1) the limited portion of the BP content that allows them to spawn, 2) Totems (their higher-level replacements) not counting towards the total, and 3) the absurdly high number of kills required.
Should this badge get the Carnival of Shadows treatment (reduced kill count and increased variety of legitimate targets) I will cheerfully withdraw my concerns. |
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Im hoping that this isnt all you have planned for Dominators going forward because one measly set still doesnt make up for the fact they didnt get jack last issue and have the fewest number of playable choices in AT's that have choices.
Stalkers have needed love for some time and finally they are getting it ( I dont play stalkers but recognize the need for improvement of the AT ).
Doms have been getting the shaft for a while now.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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They're getting TWO new sets in i22 that are FREE to ViPs (no idea on Freebies and Premiums) and that's not enough? The other sets were proliferations.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
Im hoping that this isnt all you have planned for Dominators going forward because one measly set still doesnt make up for the fact they didnt get jack last issue and have the fewest number of playable choices in AT's that have choices.
Stalkers have needed love for some time and finally they are getting it ( I dont play stalkers but recognize the need for improvement of the AT ). Doms have been getting the shaft for a while now. |
And what do you do when another AT has run out of other power sets to be proliferated? Complain they didn't get a proliferated set when there's none ot be proliferated?
Not ot mention it seems to have some new graphics involved and not all are retreads of exsisting powers.
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Interesting thought. Increase BU too 125%, nerf AS so it does the same damage as it does now. Would this make AS-less Stalkers a viable option, without making AS itself useless?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
While this concerns me a bit, I can let that slide for the moment, and instead pose a counter-question:
If Stalkers are intended to be the best BURST damage dealers, shouldn't their Build Up damage buff (and entire melee damage buff scale) upped to match that of Stalkers and Blasters? Hell, shouldn't Stalker Build Up be actually stronger than that of other characters? Say, like, 125%? I know why it was left at the Brute/Tanker 80% self damage buff - back in the day, Stalkers weren't supposed to deal all that much damage outside of Assassin's Strike (they had a damage mod of 0.9) and be squishy (they had Controller hit points), but if you're beefing them up to be actually decent characters now with burst damage as the focus, why no up the power which contributes such a great part of their burst damage? Alternately, if Build Up can't be made (much) stronger, why not give Stalkers faster recharge on theirs? |
Further tweeks: shorten the activation time of AS, increase activation time of BU.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Im sorry is there a second set im not aware of that has been announced ??|
Originally Posted by BrandX
They're getting TWO new sets in i22 that are FREE to ViPs (no idea on Freebies and Premiums) and that's not enough? The other sets were proliferations.
And what do you do when another AT has run out of other power sets to be proliferated? Complain they didn't get a proliferated set when there's none ot be proliferated? Not ot mention it seems to have some new graphics involved and not all are retreads of exsisting powers. |
And the devs themselves said they have something SPECIAL planned for Dominators coming up but havent said what that something SPECIAL is yet...
For me Special doesnt imply getting something that everyone else has.. For me it implys something unigue and or different... maybe thats just me...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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125% sounds high but 100% (equal to Scrapper and Blaster) would be a good start.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Interesting thought. Increase BU too 125%, nerf AS so it does the same damage as it does now. Would this make AS-less Stalkers a viable option, without making AS itself useless?
Further tweeks: shorten the activation time of AS, increase activation time of BU. |
Though I also think Dom damage buffs should do more as well (since their damage scale used to be a lot lower than it is now).
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I dislike this, because it makes AS less effective under additional damage buffs, such as inspirations, Musculature, damage set bonuses, etc.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Interesting thought. Increase BU too 125%, nerf AS so it does the same damage as it does now. Would this make AS-less Stalkers a viable option, without making AS itself useless?
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| Further tweeks: shorten the activation time of AS, increase activation time of BU. |
I would like to see BU made 100% damage, though, instead of the +80% it has now. (Whether this should just be a change to the scale of Stalker BU or a change to the Stalker melee damage buff modifier I haven't thought much about.)
Blue
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A new free set isn't special? Or isn't special because it's not one of twnety new sets? Or because they're giving it to Trollers as well?|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
Im sorry is there a second set im not aware of that has been announced ??
And the devs themselves said they have something SPECIAL planned for Dominators coming up but havent said what that something SPECIAL is yet... For me Special doesnt imply getting something that everyone else has.. For me it implys something unigue and or different... maybe thats just me... |
Dark Assault I have no idea on. Maybe it's just ported Dark Blast/Melee powers, maybe it's not, maybe it's a combo? But that is a second powerset.
And outside of Illusion which they're not willing to do yet (or at all, though I dont recall hearing a dev ever say that), Dominators have every possible set that can be ported to them. So, if they got it ILL/ ont he last round, would you have complained onthe next round that DOM's got nothing?
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I hope you're considering the broken pvp system you have right now with making stalkers extra overpowered in it. You might consider giving other ats love in that department if you're buffing them as well.
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Originally Posted by Synapse
For me, ideally I feel that Stalkers should be the single target burst damage kings. Some sets do this better than others and some sets offer some AoE. Your mileage may vary depending on which sets you pair together. However, I'd really like to see Stalkers being able to outperform Scrappers and Brutes in bursts, especially with single target damage. Their trade off as always is survivability.
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There isn't a whole lot of wiggle room. If I remember correctly, unhidden Assassin's Strike will be 2.76 scale damage, for a double of 5.52 scale damage with a critical which can easily be guaranteed with just a bit of prep work. The actual Assassination critical is a 7.0 scale damage hit. Even at those values, the Assassination critical isn't that much stronger, just shy of 1.5 extra damage at the cost of needing Hide and being interruptible. I guess we could factor in Demoralisation, as well, but again - there isn't much room to drop the damage of the Assassination critical before using it from hide loses its point.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Interesting thought. Increase BU too 125%, nerf AS so it does the same damage as it does now. Would this make AS-less Stalkers a viable option, without making AS itself useless?
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Furthermore, I feel that Assassin's Strike from hide could stand to be a tad more powerful, at least good enough to down or almost down even con lieutenants, which it starts coming short at in the later levels with so many enemies resistant to so many things. I don't feel there's a need to drop its effectiveness.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
125% sounds high but 100% (equal to Scrapper and Blaster) would be a good start.
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Frankly, with this change to Assassin's Strike, I struggle to think of what else I could suggest. Build Up is a fairly minor point, and Placate activating its Hide component at the END of its animation, as opposed to at the beginning is about it before we walk off the deep end.
These changes are amazing stuff, and I quite literally cannot wait!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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From that description of the replacement powers for Controller's version of Dark Miasma... I can understand either of those new powers being a replacement for Fearsome Stare. It's an important part of Dark Miasma and adds a lot to survivability, so without it, an equally vital power should be added to the set.
But either of those new powers as a replacement for Petrifying Gaze? The weakest non-Controller Hold (outside of some of the PPP holds)? Petrifying Gaze is considered a throw-away power by most people, replacing it with either of those awesome-sounding powers makes me concerned that Defender, Corruptor and Mastermind Dark Miasma players will feel shorted.
Of course, depending on their values and recharges, I could be concerned about nothing. It's possible the devs realize Petrifying Gaze is meh, and both these powers are intended to, together, replace the awesomeness of Fearsome Stare in the set.
Anyway... I can't leave this thread without the obligatory mention of my platform:
Buffs for Trick Arrows in Issue 22 please!
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I've got two stalkers, one at 45 (Dark/Ninja) and one at 41 (StJ/Energy Aura), and I have no trouble at all soloing, and started doing so at x4 around level 35. I've gone up to +0/x6, but that's pretty tedious because these sets don't have a lot of AoE compared to the sets that I normally solo x8 spawns with (Fire/Fire tanker, SS/Electric brute, etc.).|
Originally Posted by DvandomZ
I definitely like these changes to AS. I have four Stalkers, all stalled out at various levels 30 and below, because they're not very survivable as soloists at higher levels (compared to Scrappers or Brutes)...
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I'm guessing the difference between your stalkers and mine are that I build my characters with IOs as I level, instead of waiting till 50 and trying to do buy dozens of expensive IOs at once. I use alignment merits from SSAs and morality missions to get the rare IOs. Because I play lots of characters, it has taken months for my StJ/Energy stalker to get to 41.
But that character is already soft-capped out of Hide for defense against everything except negative energy and psi, and is surprisingly durable. I mostly solo with it, but on teams it's always the last one standing. My Dark/Ninja 45 stalker is similarly robust, and with two heals and tons of mitigation can solo x8, but it's kind of tedious because it's basically all ST damage.
You can get very good survivability if you build for it. The stalker's lower hit point total is a potential problem, but if you're soft-capped you're not getting hit very often. If you're playing resistance-based stalkers I can see that you'll have a harder time surviving because it's a lot harder to get decent defense with those power sets early on.
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I totally agree, and think that sounds good too, but I think you may have meant to be responding to Darkonne, because I was responding to the Dark Astoria Incarnate rewards. |
Originally Posted by Synapse
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I am looking forward to the Stalker changes, I've only got one at the moment, but these may result in either the creation of a new one, or playing that one more. Thanks!
It was good to see you again at the Summit, by the way!
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Pretty much everything that Doms has had has been a port. Since its inception all they made for doms that was unique was the Plant Primary and that was ported over to Controllers. Thorny Assault was a version of Spines. That was from issue 8 I believe. It wasnt until Issue 18 that they got Electric and Earth Control if my memory serves correct was ported over with Earth Assault as a new set. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
A new free set isn't special? Or isn't special because it's not one of twnety new sets? Or because they're giving it to Trollers as well?
Dark Assault I have no idea on. Maybe it's just ported Dark Blast/Melee powers, maybe it's not, maybe it's a combo? But that is a second powerset. And outside of Illusion which they're not willing to do yet (or at all, though I dont recall hearing a dev ever say that), Dominators have every possible set that can be ported to them. So, if they got it ILL/ ont he last round, would you have complained onthe next round that DOM's got nothing? |
Melee toons have gotten Street Justice and are getting Titan Weapons shortly and Staff Melee next year and some AT's have gotten several round of Proliferation.
Blasters got Dark Blast and Dark Manipulation as well as Beam Weapon.
Dominators havent gotten anything since Issue 18 and already lagged behind ALL other AT's with total number of choices in the first place.
This is why I hope Doms get something more. They have gotten less repeatedly over time than other AT's. I would like to see they get something that is unique to their AT.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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The reason Doms get less is their powersets have a very narrow application compared to literally any other AT. Every other AT in the game has a primary or secondary that is shared with at least 2, if not 3 other ATs. Dom primaries are only shared with one, and secondaries shared with nobody. It's a price that Doms pay for being so unique. Masterminds, Stalkers, and Blasters have to deal with this as well to a lesser degree.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
Pretty much everything that Doms has had has been a port. Since its inception all they made for doms that was unique was the Plant Primary and that was ported over to Controllers. Thorny Assault was a version of Spines. That was from issue 8 I believe. It wasnt until Issue 18 that they got Electric and Earth Control if my memory serves correct was ported over with Earth Assault as a new set.
Melee toons have gotten Street Justice and are getting Titan Weapons shortly and Staff Melee next year and some AT's have gotten several round of Proliferation. Blasters got Dark Blast and Dark Manipulation as well as Beam Weapon. Dominators havent gotten anything since Issue 18 and already lagged behind ALL other AT's with total number of choices in the first place. This is why I hope Doms get something more. They have gotten less repeatedly over time than other AT's. I would like to see they get something that is unique to their AT. |
I'd like to see more Dom stuff too, but time devoted to Doms is time that could be spent on sets with a much broader appeal. That doesn't mean the devs won't work on Doms ever, it just means you have to be patient with the speed of development of new sets for them.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Hmmm...unique to their AT? You mean like the most popular AT?|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
Pretty much everything that Doms has had has been a port. Since its inception all they made for doms that was unique was the Plant Primary and that was ported over to Controllers. Thorny Assault was a version of Spines. That was from issue 8 I believe. It wasnt until Issue 18 that they got Electric and Earth Control if my memory serves correct was ported over with Earth Assault as a new set.
Melee toons have gotten Street Justice and are getting Titan Weapons shortly and Staff Melee next year and some AT's have gotten several round of Proliferation. Blasters got Dark Blast and Dark Manipulation as well as Beam Weapon. Dominators havent gotten anything since Issue 18 and already lagged behind ALL other AT's with total number of choices in the first place. This is why I hope Doms get something more. They have gotten less repeatedly over time than other AT's. I would like to see they get something that is unique to their AT. |
Scrappers have nothing unqiue, and everything that was unqiue about them got ported away.
Powersets, inherent power, criticals (and some would say the other AT does better with crits).
I don't know, I think they should just make what they know works, and I think that's what's happening.
Dominators aren't (imo anyways) in need of anything. I think this way about Brutes, Tankers, Corruptors, MMs, ect.
In fact, other than Kheldians and Stalkers, I don't think any of the other ATs are need of any real tweaking. Some of the sets in all ATs sure.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Tangent: Black Hole
I really want a power that mechanically copies the mental image the name brings to me. You drop a sphere. Everything in a large radius around that sphere receives knockback toward the sphere. Everything that actually touches the sphere is momentarily phased, turned utterly invisible, and takes a large amount of crushing damage. Bonus points for a 'stretched/sucked into the sphere' graphic. |
This would actually be super cool if they could manage it. Sorta like Omega Maneuver combined with Wormhole.
One modification: I'd like to see any enemy sucked into the black hole become invisible, intangible and not able to be targeted too, like CoT ghosts. That way, while they're gone, you don't have team mates getting confused and wasting attacks them or wondering which ones are able to be attacked.
Then at the end, the black hole dissipates and spits everyone "back out." They end up KB and stunned for a few moments, allowing the team to refocus on the new arrivals. This will probably need an excessive End cost and Recharge, but would be worth it, just to have a cool power like that.
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I don't know about the fade power - I keep seeing it reffered to as a Mini-MoG, which implies its a high def, short uptime power. If its to short on the uptime its not really a good replacement for the -to hit in fearsome stare and is likely to be very situational. If the +regen/+recovery power is good enough it might make the difference, but fade sounds like its an emergency/alpha absorber power.
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Originally Posted by Trickshooter
From that description of the replacement powers for Controller's version of Dark Miasma... I can understand either of those new powers being a replacement for Fearsome Stare. It's an important part of Dark Miasma and adds a lot to survivability, so without it, an equally vital power should be added to the set.
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I would go a step farther and say that Stalkers should be the single target damage kings, period; their single target base damage should (slightly) outperform that of Scrappers, but their AoE damage should be a little worse than that of Scrappers.|
Originally Posted by Synapse
For me, ideally I feel that Stalkers should be the single target burst damage kings. Some sets do this better than others and some sets offer some AoE. Your mileage may vary depending on which sets you pair together. However, I'd really like to see Stalkers being able to outperform Scrappers and Brutes in bursts, especially with single target damage. Their trade off as always is survivability.
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But otherwise, I'm glad you feel this way. It's always seemed like the AT was designed to be a "glass cannon," but while they had the fragility of the glass, they didn't have a reciprocating punch. It's almost ironic that the previous fixes for Stalkers were to patch up their weak defenses instead.
There's no arguing that the AT is in a better place today than it was back at the release of CoV, but the fact that you're doing something about their damage output now is, in my opinion, a huge step in the right direction to getting this AT where they belong.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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I think you're going the wrong way with your math.|
Originally Posted by Rikis
I just want to say you're awesome for staying up till 12:30a (well, it's 2:30a for you out there in the west ain't it?) posting on the boards.
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10:30PM
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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
It's interesting to me, how people will look at a powerset like Dark Miasma and see different things. A testament to its versatility, I suppose.
I always saw it as a buff/debuff set, rather than a control-oriented set. To me, the mezzes were the things that were out of place. While I can see where you're coming from, personally I would LOVE to have Dark Affinity available for other ATs as alternate version of Dark Miasma, because swapping out those two mez powers would be great to me. ... I do agree that blackhole's persistence as a power is kind of baffling, though. Synapse, is there any chance you can tell us what you think Blackhole's actual PURPOSE is, as a power? Because to date, all of the purported purposes it has have been demonstrated to be not met by the power. |
And Blackhole is kind of an "Oh Crap" power. Like MoG, or SoW and such.
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Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
I'm... assuming you meant for those to be less than signs (<), not greater than (>)?
What you have states that Tanks should have the best damage and the worst survivability. |
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Originally Posted by Dispari
125% sounds high but 100% (equal to Scrapper and Blaster) would be a good start.
Though I also think Dom damage buffs should do more as well (since their damage scale used to be a lot lower than it is now). |
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I've been considering an idea... and was wonder what you might think of it. This game, to my knowledge, doesn't have a Piercing damage type (IE, it ignores a certain percentage of defense). Perhaps this is something Stalkers (and maybe sniper attacks) could make use of?|
Originally Posted by Synapse
For me, ideally I feel that Stalkers should be the single target burst damage kings. Some sets do this better than others and some sets offer some AoE. Your mileage may vary depending on which sets you pair together. However, I'd really like to see Stalkers being able to outperform Scrappers and Brutes in bursts, especially with single target damage.
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Originally Posted by Synapse
Their trade off as always is survivability.
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DAMAGE:
Tanker > Brute > Scrapper > Stalker
SURVIVABILITY:
Stalker > Scrapper > Brute > Tanker
While there's not much difference between Scrappers and Brutes in damage, it's only a rough scale, of course. Current game design ironically puts Stalker maybe at Brute level or lower in terms of damage, haha.
What you have states that Tanks should have the best damage and the worst survivability.
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