Street Justice and general points refunds.

i've always preferred the version that goes, "And nothing of value was lost."

To take the McDonalds example and put it in proper context.

You bought a hamburger.
You ate the hamburger.
Now you aren't feeling the love anymore.
So you barf it back onto the wrapper and try to return it.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

They already have one. It's as clear and concise as is possible in the english language (or any other).

NO REFUNDS.



This would be a really good point if they were a Wal-Mart clone.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

Except many people are saying that if you can convince customer service they will give refunds, now I have to explore that because if they do thats going to create quite a mess.

I didnt eat it, took one bite, said its nasty and am trying to send it back

Eating it would be getting a StJ to 50,

getting to 15 and saying, this stinks, thats a bite.

I did play it on beta, but I dont remember it being this bad, and I cant remember the numbers so I cant say why it feels worse if it wasnt changed.

What AT and secondary (primary in the case of Tanks) were you testing it with? Powerset synergy plays a big part in the 'feel' of a character.

<Edit>

Put in the power name, as normal:
[Rib Cracker]

When you click to look at the info, click on where it has your AT name in green. It will have a dropdown list. Pick the other AT you want to see the info for. The other AT doesn't even need to have the set to see what it would be like.

(Used to be able to do so by doing something like [power.at] or [at.power] but that doesn't seem to do it now.)

See my Guides and Tutorials

Yep. Been working for tens of thousands of CoH customers for almost 8 years.

Pure bull. People have been talking ingame about what was on in open beta for on the test server for weeks.

What about them? If they are F2P they won't have access to Street Justice. Only VIP's and Prems can get it.

I've met hundreds if not thousands of players on the test sevrers over the years that never read the forums.

Willful ignorance is never an excuse. If you choose to buy something sight unseen you have no one to blame but yourself if you have buyers remorse.

Impatience is not an excuse for buyers remorse.

Simple. You don't like the price so you want to believe you aren't getting what you paid for.

Yet that means isn't available to players. However, does that mean you'd be okay with being able to open up the character creation and see a locked power set's numbers just like every other power in the game before buying the power set? Or how about putting in a power encyclopedia into the help files? Click on a power (in game help files have can have active links) and a window showing the power comes up.

The "more information" is more than they are currently providing, like having the player be able to see what is in the power set(s) in the character creation. Just like the Costume Creator lets you see locked parts.

I actually agree with that. Yet they haven't met that standard yet though.

And yet, they haven't done that with purchased power sets on the live servers.

You do know that consumer protection acts and civil trials are not criminal trials, right? Well, they are if you go out of your way to defraud someone, but that isn't happening here.

It seems that you might not understand the concept of ethics as it pertains to vendors. In this case, you really can't say that Paragon Studios doesn't have an ethical duty to disclose to the player what they are buying.

I agree with this. I would add the producers to the list of people that need a boot to the head though.

That is what I've been trying to say, yet I'm apparently not saying it well enough.

I expect the following about any product (not necessarily just power sets, but costumes and boosts as well) on the Paragon Market:

• Timely information about the product. Either before or at launch of the product.
• Easily accessible in-game information about the product.
• Easily be able to tell what has, and has not, been purchased.

Paragon Studios has failed on all these points.

I agree with you, yet I think a lot of people disagree with this position.

I agree with this as well.

I partially agree. The person that buys a power set without checking it deserves what they get. However, that does not absolve Paragon Studios from being partially at fault for not providing the information in either a timely (holding onto the Informer at least 6 weeks till the day AFTER it is released on the market) or not having the information accessible in either the market itself or in the character creation.

My point is that they haven't done so in a sufficient manner.

I agree with the first half of this statement, but disagree with the second half. They want us to buy the products on the market. By not providing adequate information prior to purchase, they are hoping people buy without knowing what they are buying. That, to me, is unethical.

Actually, they lost a sale. I've bought Beam Rifle, I doubt that I will be buying Street Justice even with the "free" points. How it was released has left such a bad taste that I doubt that I'll ever warm to the set. I was "meh" about it this morning, and have since gone actively to "dislike".

Over the individual purchase? No. In their business practices? Yes, they are at fault. They need to take steps this doesn't happen again.

It would be acceptable if they:

• Provided that information at the time of character creation.
• Provided that information in the help menu (clickable links to the specific powers in the power sets).

I had access to dual pistols on the test server for the week before it went on sale. I can't really say the same about Electric Control (though I was in closed beta fairly early for I18), Kinetic Melee (same), or Demon Summoning (this came out before I was invited to closed beta). However I didn't buy Going Rogue until almost 2 weeks after due to the inept handling of cross border sales & GameStop (despite having pre-ordered it 2 months before).

If I remember correctly, less than a 7 playable days after I got into open beta it was taken down. I say playable as a few days the beta wasn't accessible by any player.

The official announcement on the website, forums, and ustream happened the day AFTER release. They should have happened last week, before release.

As to the test server, they need to let players know that the billing system is not connected to the test server and that the player can "test drive" the power set there. Preferably at the same time they make the official announcements the week before.

Not the follow-up transaction though.

And that doesn't absolve Paragon Studios from having better descriptions of their products that players can use those points on.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Hey, some of us have only just woken up! Is it too late to join in?

Refunds cuz the set isn't as strong as some other set? No way.

Disclose set numbers before purchase? Sure, why not. I was actually surprised it didn't work like costume pieces. I expected to be able to select the powerset in character creation and take a look at the powers on offer, but not to be able to proceed until I had paid.

maybe not, but the devs have got to look at the forum occasionally and there are some things here that should be listened to.

They need to display the stats in a reasonably findable location, not buried in obscurity.

They need a better and clearer policy for dealing with unhappy customers.

Its possible that selling powersets is just a bad idea and they should stick to costumes and other such stuff.

AoE damage isn't the be-all, end-all of this game. In terms of single-target damage, Street Justice has very good potential. If you played Street Justice during the beta you would have already known that AoE wasn't its strong suit.

Yes, I can. They don't have a responsibility OF ANY KIND to disclose anything whatsoever to the players, just like said players don't have a responsibility to buy anything that they haven't been informed about. Valve have been selling TF2 chest keys for real money with absolutely no disclosure as to what that key will actually earn people in the real game.

The vendor doesn't have a RESPONSIBILITY to hold people's hands and make decisions for them. It's good business to have greater accessibility and information, obviously, since not everyone wants to buy something without a good understanding, but that's on the discretion of the vendor and not something you can go about demanding.

Well, no, you CAN go about demanding it and you probably have a right to that, but you can't turn this into a responsibility on Paragon Studios' part just because you say it's so.

Again, you're acting almost exactly like Icedrone.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I've never actually seen "I don't like it" as a legitimate complaint for wanting a refund. If the item you bought is damaged, sure, or if it's not as advertised. Then the vendor should have the responsibility to reimburse you, though even then I've only ever seen vendors take the item back for a trade of another item and never for a refund. But buying an item and just deciding you suddenly don't like it? Should have thought of that before you bought it. A deal's a deal.

In other words, a vendor is only responsible for a trade-in or a refund if the vendor is responsible for the problems with the item. If the customer has problems beyond those, especially "I don't like it as much as I thought I would," then that's too bad so sad.

Here's the thing - if I get roped into watching the Last Airbender movie and I hate it, do I get to go out and demand a refund? If I buy a car and decide I don't like it red after I park it in my magenta garage, do I get a refund? If I buy a game and realise my computer is a piece of crap that doesn't cover the minimal system requirements, do I get a refund? Because in none of these cases would I say "yes."

I'm not even talking about "caveat emptor." I'm talking about being responsible for the decisions you make, and if you got exactly what you were promised, you don't get to complain. And what WERE we promised with Saint Justice? A melee set with a combo mechanic. That it is. End of story.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

only works w/ certain companies in the food industry afaik

Maybe a holiday sale?

In the UK there are distance selling regulations which basically allow just that. You have 7 days from receipt during which you can return an item, in it's original state (so basically unopened) for ANY reason whatsoever - including "I don't like it."

Additionally there is a provision that clear information about goods or services must be given before purchase.

All this of course isn't likely applicable to virtual items, especially where the transaction actually covers the points purchase and not the powerset. Whether or not you could get your points back is entirely down to NCSoft/Paragon and it's unlikely.

I mean in a philosophical sense. I simply don't believe that a customer buying a product based on TRUE information then should ever have the right to return it because "I don't like it." Sure, if some companies allow that, more power to that, but that's not a case of "right" so much as specific business practice.

A vendor cannot read a customer's mind and know exactly what a customer really actually wants. The best a vendor can do is inform the customer of a product's specifics to whatever extent the vendor feels is prudent and then let the customer make an educated choice. If a customer is put in a position to make an uneducated choice and guess at a product's quality, then it is that customer's responsibility to decide whether he wants to take a risk or whether he wants to walk away and potentially look for additional information.

Let me put it this way - Steam is constantly trying to sell me games, and most of the time the info on the game listed in the Steam store is garbage. It's just a small text blurb that's rarely informative and is usually empty praise and one or two trailers which are often SGI and don't show much of the actual game. Before I buy a game off them, I check GameTrailers for better videos and possibly reviews, I check for owner commends, I check for non-professional reviews, I check YouTube for in-game videos, I ask people I know who've played it and so on. Steam DOE SNOT offer refunds for anything that I'm aware of, and as long as I'm going to be putting down real money for a game, I want to know that it's not garbage. Because if I DO buy a game just based on five screenshots and a 100-word text blurb and I hate it... Well, whose fault was it that I was an idiot and bought Crevures, then?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I don't think this would apply, since you are not buying goods, but a service.