Street Justice and general points refunds.
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-10-05 09:31 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I can't see a problem with refunding points. Recently purchased items should show with a button to refund the points for 72 hours or so. Nearly everything can be refunded; costume parts just revert to gray spandex, characters with "illegal" sets are locked out except for deletion, etc. Only thing I could see an issue with are the one-time account change items like server moves or renames.
NCSoft still gets their money and the customer gets to select other items from the shop they'll be happier with (or save up for future purchases). If the customer wants to buy every item in the shop in sequence, returning each one to buy the next, who cares? It's not as though some poor wage slave at the customer service desk is handling it in person.
Frankly, I'm sort of baffled at how vehemently some people are opposed to a system for refunding points. Everyone gets what they wanted.
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See, this I agree with. I hold the vendor responsible for keeping promises made in advertising and during the purchasing process. If you bought something and it's not what you were promised, then you were swindled out of your money because the vendor either lied or screwed up. This is when a customer rightly deserves a refund because what he got isn't what he ordered.|
Originally Posted by Nyx
Point blank sucker punch answer!
Yes, there should be a refund system if what you purchase if A) Does not work as intended or is defentive B) An error took place in the store in which you bought a duplicate item C) If the item does not work with the instructions provided either because of a defect or known issue D) If the item purchased has been missrepresented through data or numbers that peform differently after purchase or was changed shortly after the release. Buyer beware or Caveat Emptor only works if the purchaser buys "As Is" based off of no known knowledge of the product or service, and agrees through a contract stating that they will take the product. If there is misinformation at any point most cnhtracts will be null and void |
I draw the line, however, on refunds for perfectly functional, advertisement-accurate items delivered undamaged. If the customer got what he ordered, then the vendor has lived up to his responsibility. If the person changes his mind, then that's no longer the vendor's fault and, as such, no longer the vendor's direct responsibility to deal with.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Frankly, I'm not against refunds as a concept. I'm against the entitlement that comes with them. "I bought your game and it sucks! Give me my money back or I will sue you!" If Paragon Studios institute a system for refunds (and I can bet real money they never will), then it won't be because they were legally or ethically obligated to institute one, but rather because they decided it was a smart business move.
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Originally Posted by Jophiel
Frankly, I'm sort of baffled at how vehemently some people are opposed to a system for refunding points. Everyone gets what they wanted.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I think Shubbie is dead wrong about Street Justice. It's AoE being Targeted instead of point blank is larger than it appears. It just takes practice and a shift in perception to use it properly.
That said, I don't have a problem with NCSoft refunding his points if he doesn't like it. Not everyone had or will have in the future the opportunity to try stuff out in beta. Likewise, I do think the UI should be changed so that people can easily peruse the numbers of a set before they buy.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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You know I actually practice law for a living and I would never say that. I don't know what 50 states, Canada, Mexico, the EU, and however many more countries' laws state as to consumer protection. And neither do you.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Frankly, I'm not against refunds as a concept. I'm against the entitlement that comes with them. "I bought your game and it sucks! Give me my money back or I will sue you!" If Paragon Studios institute a system for refunds (and I can bet real money they never will), then it won't be because they were legally or ethically obligated to institute one, but rather because they decided it was a smart business move.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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With the exception of "as-is" items purchased on sale, I've found that I can return most anything if I do it soon after the purchase, even with reasons of "I don't like it' or "it's not what I wanted/expected".|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
See, this I agree with. I hold the vendor responsible for keeping promises made in advertising and during the purchasing process. If you bought something and it's not what you were promised, then you were swindled out of your money because the vendor either lied or screwed up. This is when a customer rightly deserves a refund because what he got isn't what he ordered.
I draw the line, however, on refunds for perfectly functional, advertisement-accurate items delivered undamaged. If the customer got what he ordered, then the vendor has lived up to his responsibility. If the person changes his mind, then that's no longer the vendor's fault and, as such, no longer the vendor's direct responsibility to deal with. |
I don't see a problem with getting points refunded for in-game purchases, within a reasonable time frame. Three days seems fair to me. Keep in mind, this is a points refund, not a cash refund. NCSoft will still have the buyer's money.
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Now that we did not need 14 pages for. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
If Paragon Studios institute a system for refunds, then it won't be because they were legally or ethically obligated to institute one, but rather because they decided it was a smart business move.
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It's all cash flow numbers.
Same as with any "what vets want VS what looks good in advertisement" argument; As long as the the final result of the little formula that weighs dissatisfaction of existing customers and the probable rate of eventual cancelled subs caused by it against the tradeoff in the shape of new customers attracted and all sales attached to that yields a positive number indicating profit the course is decided.
This basic rule applies to every decision made in a business that deals with customers engaged in some sort of service.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
You know I actually practice law for a living and I would never say that. I don't know what 50 states, Canada, Mexico, the EU, and however many more countries' laws state as to consumer protection. And neither do you.
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If that were an issue in this context we would not be where we are today.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
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I tend to agree with this position. I do have a concern that there should be some sort of time limitation on a refund of points, however, because the longer the delay before a request for a refund of points, the more "enjoyment" (in the legal sense of the word) the purchaser has had for the items purchased.|
Originally Posted by Jophiel
I can't see a problem with refunding points. Recently purchased items should show with a button to refund the points for 72 hours or so. Nearly everything can be refunded; costume parts just revert to gray spandex, characters with "illegal" sets are locked out except for deletion, etc. Only thing I could see an issue with are the one-time account change items like server moves or renames.
NCSoft still gets their money and the customer gets to select other items from the shop they'll be happier with (or save up for future purchases). If the customer wants to buy every item in the shop in sequence, returning each one to buy the next, who cares? It's not as though some poor wage slave at the customer service desk is handling it in person. Frankly, I'm sort of baffled at how vehemently some people are opposed to a system for refunding points. Everyone gets what they wanted. |
Subbie - are you asking for a cash refund or a refund of points? That's not clear to me, but I may have missed something in this long discussion.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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I no longer practice law for a living, but I do try and keep up with things that interest me in the legal field. And the sale of virtual items is a field that is just now getting the law's attention.|
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
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If that were an issue in this context we would not be where we are today. |
I can guarantee you that NCSoft hasn't reviewed all they need to know on this subject because the subject matter is changing.
Geko is right- no one should be assuming they know how consumer protection laws are going to treat this sort of transaction. Legislatures are just now starting to come to grips with how they can tax this sort of transaction. Consumer protections will follow along behind that and they may or may not resemble laws dealing with physical items.
Statesmonkey Sez: Lighten up! It's a game, for Lincoln's sake!
Also: Six years of casual play begins to look an awful lot like one year of hardcore play.
So call me lazy for not reading all 15 pages of the thread, but did the OP actually ask for a refund and was denied, or not? Because what seems oddly missing from this discussion is the part where someone tells him/her that the company doesn't do refunds.
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Nah. He was told that. Several times.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
So call me lazy for not reading all 15 pages of the thread, but did the OP actually ask for a refund and was denied, or not? Because what seems oddly missing from this discussion is the part where someone tells him/her that the company doesn't do refunds.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
One problem with refunds for powersets would be, what happens when they get nerfed? If you say "Ok, you can have your points back if you don't like the powerset", then surely that means they would need to offer refunds everytime they make any changes to a bought set?
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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You dropped the points for StJ.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
I didnt eat it, took one bite, said its nasty and am trying to send it back
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You started a character with it and played it.
Consumption complete.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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It basically opens the door to revolving door purchases and no good way to account for it.|
Originally Posted by Jophiel
I can't see a problem with refunding points.
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Big places like WalMart can do it with physical inventory because they can absorb the costs of the refunds and/or place items back on shelves.
With electronic media, it's a bit different.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
In this particular game, where a character can easily cruise to level 50 in 3 days, there may be an issue with a future policy of time-sensitive refunds. To be meaningful, such a refund grace period would have to be less than 8 hours long. I do not exaggerate.
In my opinion, we would be much more likely to see some sort of 'trial system' involving the Test Server before that happened: Buying the power unlocks it for use on the test server only until it is autoconfirmed at the end of the remorse window. Or something equally problematic for both sales and fun.
The law of Unintended Consequences is a PANCAKE.
Indeed, what if you (were able to) purchase something for a character that they will not be able to use or even try out for several levels?
In any case, I feel Shubbie's particular situation: refunds because "I just don't like the power" or even "the way this power relates to other powers changed after purchase" are unlikely if a system where the power can be easily numerically compared to other powers can be put in place.
Standard Code Rant aside, here is what I think would be a good idea:
The option to buy a power does not appear until after you move to the customization screen where you can see and alter your powers' animations/effects. Just before you confirm, you are given an obvious but optional button that links you to the Real Numbers.
Note, however, that this would not solve Shubbie's problem. Beside the fact that he thought the numbers had changed until it was proven that they hadn't, buyer remorse is still possible to set in hours/levels later and you see how the power 'feels'. Or after the power is altered, or after some other power is altered, or after some other power is introduced. Or after an RP event changes how you perceive the character. Or after a movie comes out that changes how you perceive the character.
In all cases where the product is being returned for a subjective reason: "It's not as good as super strength" as opposed to an objective reason: "The DPA is not as high as that of super strength, and I bought it because it was" IMHO a refund should not even be considered. Even in cases where a power is numerically rebalanced after purchase, I'm not sure its' warranted, because then you are effectively saying, "I bought the power because it was broken, and I don't want the balanced version."
Also: Gold Farmers.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I doubt that's true. Few companies that operate in as many markets as NCSoft have a good handle on their compliance requirements. A fair amount of companies do their best and use the corporate version of "I'm sorry, I won't do it anymore," when they get caught doing something they shouldn't have.|
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
Believe me when I tell you Paragon Studios/NCsoft have reviewed all they needed to know on this subject.
If that were an issue in this context we would not be where we are today. |
It works surprising well and is a heck of a lot cheaper than hiring lawyers in all those jurisdictions.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Because once you use something like Street Justice, they can't just re-wrap it and put it back out on the shelves for re-sale?|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Big places like WalMart can do it with physical inventory because they can absorb the costs of the refunds and/or place items back on shelves.
With electronic media, it's a bit different. |
Or because a day or two is all the longer the set is intended to be used anyway, so it's like getting a refund on a concert ticket after the concert has happened?
Or, how exactly is your wal-mart analogy supposed to work?
I still don't think it's a question of what "fair" or "right."
Most places make these sorts of policy decisions based on more pragmatic principles.
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Because this is Shubbie. And complaining about things on the forums is what Shubbie does.
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Originally Posted by Feycat
Why don't you put in a support ticket and ask for a refund then, instead of filling the forums with yet another boo-hoo post?
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But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
In this case as kitsune has touched on, the biggest problem is that people who return the set now because it was changed in beta(which, in classic shubbie form, is incorrect) opens the door to people trying to cry for a refund every single time a power actually is rebalanced, and i feel that it sets a dangerous precedent. While i feel it is unnecessary because i personally feel that the customer is responsible for being informed about their purchases before they make them, i can see allowing some form of trial testing of a powerset before it is purchasable. but all but the most outrageous of cases(say, a hacked account) I'd say its a better policy to continue not offering refunds.
in regards to shubbies oft repeted comments about losing a customer, i think it was said best earlier in the thread that some customers are simply not worth the cost of ill will and csr time they tie up. Toxic customers, simply put, are unpleaseable and will continue to cause issues as long as they continue their subscription.
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No I havent yet, I wanted to see where this went first.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Nah. He was told that. Several times.
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But I do find it funny that answers alternated between
NO REFUNDS
to Call customer service and they will help you
seems to me if nothing else, Paragon has to clear this up BIG TIME!
Because not one person is 100% sure what their current policy is.
If nothing else, of this Im sure.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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No the customer is frequently wrong and often a raving idiot. Smart businesses find that there are less than 10% of the customers who complain that result in 90% of the customer support time. And is very smart for a business to cut those customers loose because they cost the company far more in time and resources than they make from the customer.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Really, why
Does it pay to loose that customer for the cost of a single purchase? Really I go into walmart and buy a hair dryer and then return it saying it doesnt have enough power, clerk says the watts is right on the box. I say I dont like it, doesnt get my hair dry, I want my money back They will give me my money back even if I was wrong and didnt read the wattage. The customer is not always right, but a business does need to go a little above and beyond to accede to a customer when it costs them more to fight it. Its not worth having me be bitter and leave for a few months for the 10 dollars, even if I dont stay gone forever. Loosing 10 dollars compared to loosing 45 as I go somewhere else for 3 months because Im feeling ripped off. Im not saying I will leave forever, but I have left for months when I felt ripped off or even longer, I left for the entire period between i6 and i9 because the game was 10 steps past horrid dreg as ED was in but inventions was not. |
So it is in a businesses best interest to cut loose and see out the door repeat complainers.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
its not really that hard. the official policy is no refunds, but they will sometimes make discretionary exceptions for exceptional cases. yours is unlikely because the case is not exceptional, but the suggesters are likely counting on you getting lucky. Is this really a hard concept for you?
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I doubt that's true. Few companies that operate in as many markets as NCSoft have a good handle on their compliance requirements. A fair amount of companies do their best and use the corporate version of "I'm sorry, I won't do it anymore," when they get caught doing something they shouldn't have.
It works surprising well and is a heck of a lot cheaper than hiring lawyers in all those jurisdictions. |
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Originally Posted by Casual_Player
I no longer practice law for a living, but I do try and keep up with things that interest me in the legal field. And the sale of virtual items is a field that is just now getting the law's attention.
I can guarantee you that NCSoft hasn't reviewed all they need to know on this subject because the subject matter is changing. |
You both assumed I meant I believe they have it all covered such that they can't lose in a court of law, but I didn't.
I didn't say that, just as Samuel Tow didn't rule out in his statement they might still know it if they were legally or ethically obligated to - only that that would be the reason for it.
Businesses that work with customers and provide a constant service for which they need as much customer retention as possible can work quite complex internally in this matter.
If you've worked in the legal field it really depends on in what sort of position exactly you worked if you've ever seen this, but at the very basis it comes down to it not everything even makes it to a court of law in the first place because some cases are lost the moment they come to pass since the profit in that was already determined in a previous risk assessment.
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Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
Same as with any "what vets want VS what looks good in advertisement" argument; As long as the the final result of the little formula that weighs dissatisfaction of existing customers and the probable rate of eventual cancelled subs caused by it against the tradeoff in the shape of new customers attracted and all sales attached to that yields a positive number indicating profit the course is decided.
This basic rule applies to every decision made in a business that deals with customers engaged in some sort of service. |
Cases can be lost and settlements and / or fines can be paid without spending any further money on a matter simply if the profit gained from being on the wrong path for long enough before more than covers those costs.
A good example of this sort of strategy at work is the Netscape settlement in the Microsoft Antitrust Case.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
Point blank sucker punch answer!
Yes, there should be a refund system if what you purchase if
A) Does not work as intended or is defentive
B) An error took place in the store in which you bought a duplicate item
C) If the item does not work with the instructions provided either because of a defect or known issue
D) If the item purchased has been missrepresented through data or numbers that peform differently after purchase or was changed shortly after the release.
Buyer beware or Caveat Emptor only works if the purchaser buys "As Is" based off of no known knowledge of the product or service, and agrees through a contract stating that they will take the product.
If there is misinformation at any point most cnhtracts will be null and void