City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Premium Players get less than expected!

Ad Astra

By Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-09-24 05:58 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_X2 View Post
Thats because it was a part of going rogue but they pushed it back into another issue because it wasn't finished. I'd dig for the old notes on it but I'm too lazy.
You also took my post out of context. Many things on the Main City of Heroes page are oudated and needs to be updated to reflect the current game as it all stands. Someone could read the going rogue site and miss Freedom which is listed under news where the information about what each tier gets as well as where it states that incarnates are vip only. If they do skip that it could be implied that going rogue and incarnates are linked.. which is no longer the case do the new pricing and tier information. So its just confusing.. we as existing players know where to go for this information.. returning or new players could easily miss this stuff.

 

Posted

On a side tangent... Because I see a lot of them...... How do you get the gold names in the forums?! :0 I'm curious sry XD


VIG0S: 1356 badges in counting
Something for ppl to use

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackleviathan View Post
On a side tangent... Because I see a lot of them...... How do you get the gold names in the forums?! :0 I'm curious sry XD
I believe it is a slowly-trickling-in side-effect of having your NC master account labeled as "VIP." Just a guess though...

First off, I will agree that it sucks for returning players to return as premiums and lose out on so much, especially entire IO builds.

That said, a player can return and play for free, which simply was not an option in the past. So for the player to expect to get everything they left behind, now at no cost, is unreasonable. The glass is half full.

@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.

 

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Originally Posted by Biowraith View Post
You kinda had to subscribe to access any of its features.
True. However, before, that was the ONLY way you could play. It went without saying; you subbed to play, or didn't and didn't.

Now that is no longer the only option. In that context, the one off payment for GR and the Incarnate content (requiring something to access something is the exact same thing as paying for the system, let's be honest here) means that those who paid cold hard cash for something should get to keep what they paid for. Last time I checked, that was actual law; it'd be like buying a chair and then the shop coming round and sawing the legs off because they later changed their policy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

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Oooooo ok cool cause I know mines VIP an was wondering. Then wondering if its for those people who have like several hundred posts n crap.


VIG0S: 1356 badges in counting
Something for ppl to use

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Winterminal View Post

That said, a player can return and play for free, which simply was not an option in the past. So for the player to expect to get everything they left behind, now at no cost, is unreasonable. The glass is half full.
To expect everything would be unreasonable.

To expect something you already paid for outside of the monthly sub to play is not. There are now different subscription (or not) options. Before there was none. That in itself is irrelevant to the one off payment that was GR. People seem to not get that or be ignoring it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

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Originally Posted by lionheart_fr View Post
Read the quote you posted again. It does not say "Everything you already purchased." It says "nearly" everything.
Read what I said again - customers shouldn't be put in a position of having to read the fine print and spot the catch in a document that's intended to inform. Well-written documentation should lead people to infer what it is the documentation is trying to say anyway. Badly-written documentation leads people to assume things that are functionally false, and which can only be proven false by very careful reading.

This isn't a legally-binding contract. There's no reason to rely on slight of hand and careful wording, because its point shouldn't be to mislead but to inform. It is at this crucial task that "you keep nearly everything you paid for" fails, because it's both so broad as to be meaningless and it leads people down the road of false assumptions.

Now, of course, people shouldn't assume. There's no reason info text can't be written more clearly. And it's not "nearly everything," at that. You don't keep the Architect, you don't keep Inventions, you don't keep the Market, you don't keep Incarnates, you don't keep Controllers and Masterminds, you don't keep the 12 slots per server. You can argue definitions and specifics, but this doesn't change the fact that that bit of text needs to be more clear about what it's saying.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Texarkana View Post
There have always been 2 requirements for access to Incarnates. Having Going Rogue and subscribing.

Before Freedom, you did not have access to Incarnates if you subscribed, but did not buy Going Rogue. Conversely, if you bought Going Rogue, but did not subscribe, then you did not have access to Incarnates (or anything else).

Given that in the Freedom model you get Going Rogue access for free when you subscribe, it appears that subscribing is the only requirement, but the two requirements still stand. Therefore, owning Going Rogue, but not subscribing, means you do not have access to Incarnates (but do have access to other stuff!)

Now, do I agree with this? Not really, because of the marketing snafu that was postponing Incarnates, but that is the way it is.
Hmn, that's a slightly better way of putting it.

HOWEVER; existing players did have to pay money for GR, regardless of whether it is free now.
If the people who paid cash for GR do lose access to Incarnates that, I feel, is not on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Last time I checked, that was actual law; it'd be like buying a chair and then the shop coming round and sawing the legs off because they later changed their policy.
It's nothing like that. I'm not even sure what else to say; that analogy suggests such a fundamentally flawed understanding of what's happening here.

 

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http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

Per Positron:

Hey everyone,

I know it’s been common knowledge for a while that the initial phase of the Incarnate system would be available in City of Heroes: Going Rogue. As you know, I’ve been spearheading the “End-Game” system for City of Heroes, to give players a lot of what they’ve been asking for: more powers, greater customization, more epic battles, and most of all, more content to do with their Level 50’s.

That last point was something that we got great feedback on in the GR Closed Beta. Even though it was just a sneak peak, the Alpha Slot doesn’t benefit the player in a way that we had envisioned it would. Because of this feedback we have decided to act sooner rather than later.

Since Alpha Slot Incarnate Abilities do not exemplar down (and we're not changing that), we find that players end up with Power that has limited use. We recognize that the Alpha Slot experience is something that a lot of you are eagerly awaiting for and we want to make sure that it is awesome, and most of all fun, when we bring the system on-line.

We still want to do an “Alpha Slot Sneak Peek”, but we want it to happen once more of the system and content are closer to being ready for prime time.

We want to thank everyone who tested and gave their feedback on the Alpha Slot, the drop rates, the costs, and especially how they see the Abilities interacting with their builds, math-wise. Your testing has been invaluable and we have learned a great deal in a short time thanks to you. We now feel that the Alpha Slot and Incarnate Abilities will have a much higher impact when they are ready to be rolled out.

We hope this helps you to understand why we’ve come to this decision and appreciate your patience while we continue making the Alpha Slot and the rest of the Incarnate System the best that it can be.

@Texarkana
@Thexder

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackleviathan View Post
On a side tangent... Because I see a lot of them...... How do you get the gold names in the forums?! :0 I'm curious sry XD
Become a VIP. I preferred when my name was not gold personally.

EDIT: Oh and now my name has gone white again. Weeeeeeiiiiiiiird. But I like it this way.


Bad Voodoo by @Beyond Reach. Arc ID #373659. Level 20-24. Mr. Bocor has fallen victim to a group of hooded vigilantes who have been plaguing Port Oakes, interfering with illegal operations and pacifying villain's powers. He demands that revenge is taken on these miscreants and his powers are returned! You look like just the villain for the job. Challenging.

 

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The level of entitlement and the number of wannabe lawyers in the game community never ceases to amaze me.

We even have wannabe martyrs that think the EULA somehow infringes upon our civil rights from these people.

Since they make their own lives miserable though, I can at least gain some amount of comfort that their attempts to impact the game negatively are not without consequence.

"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45

 

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Originally Posted by Biowraith View Post
It's nothing like that. I'm not even sure what else to say; that analogy suggests such a fundamentally flawed understanding of what's happening here.
It's about as close as I can get.

Subscription = Allowed to play the game
GR = Incarnate System (effectively)

Pre I21:
Subscription = Had to be paid
GR: Bought = Incarnates

I21:
Subscription = Free or Subbed
GR = Now free

People who had GR pre-I21 paid for it. Irrelevant of people who join after I21, those who DID pay should have access. They paid for something, and that is now apparently being taken away. That is not 'expecting everything for free', that is something they have already paid for in a one off payment being taken away. That is not on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

The thing I'm curious about is how one thing that was said by the devs at some point in a UStream or on the forums somewhere is taken more to heart and seems to be more well known than the official page that lists all the information describing the differences between the player options?

 

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Originally Posted by FalconX_NA View Post
A friend of mine just came back to the game after it went free and isn't allowed to use the incarnate system after he bought Going Rogue. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Incarnate system was included with Going Rogue, in fact before going F2P, new players HAD to buy Going Rogue to use the Incarnate system. So tell me how is it fair that someone who spent their own money on a service gets that service taken from them just because they aren't paying the 16$ a month. This is clearly just a way to get more money,someone who paid for a service shouldn't be denied .Premium players might as well start a new account, they really aren't gaining much of anything by coming back...
Well, I guess this is what we can start looking forward to. A lot of people cry-babying because they didn't bother to READ THE DOCUMENTATION to see what they're entitled to without paying.

Your friend is NOT PAYING. She's lucky she's getting ANY ACCESS AT ALL.

GR was required to access the incarnate system, but the incarnate system came an entire issue later, and it has ALWAYS been made perfectly clear that the Incarnate system is a VIP only perk. Just because you and your friend never bothered to read any of the copious posts and charts doesn't mean Paragon is the one in the wrong. It's you.

I'm suddenly finding myself reversing on whether or not I want free/preem players to have access to posting. This is going to get tiresome in a hurry.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
It's about as close as I can get.

Subscription = Allowed to play the game
GR = Incarnate System (effectively)

Pre I21:
Subscription = Had to be paid
GR: Bought = Incarnates

I21:
Subscription = Free or Subbed
GR = Now free

People who had GR pre-I21 paid for it. Irrelevant of people who join after I21, those who DID pay should have access. They paid for something, and that is now apparently being taken away. That is not 'expecting everything for free', that is something they have already paid for in a one off payment being taken away. That is not on.
They are keeping to the terms and conditions agreed to and made clear when GR was purchased - you need an active and subscribed account.

They've simply added another option (Premium) with different terms and conditions.

So long as you continue to honour the terms and conditions that were in place when you bought GR (an active and subscribed account) you keep access to everything you bought - just as was agreed when you made the purchase.

If you choose to move to the alternative model you do so knowing it operates under different terms and conditions - and nobody forces you to make that switch (and you can switch right back if you dislike the new option).

(I'm loathe to use crappy analogies, but if you want a chair analogy it's more like previously you rented a chair which came with various extras. You could also pay a one-off fee to add recliner action (GR) to your rented chair. Now you're being told you can continue renting that chair - and keep any extras you added to it - as you've always done.. or you can stop renting and lose access (as has always been the case) but now if you stop renting instead of leaving you chairless they'll provide you with a basic model, without the extras, free of charge (Premium), and you can start renting your tricked out chair again any time you want (as has always been the case) - are you really saying you'd be annoyed at the shop that the *free* courtesy chair didn't include the things you'd added to your rented chair? Really?)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
It's about as close as I can get.

Subscription = Allowed to play the game
GR = Incarnate System (effectively)

Pre I21:
Subscription = Had to be paid
GR: Bought = Incarnates

I21:
Subscription = Free or Subbed
GR = Now free

People who had GR pre-I21 paid for it. Irrelevant of people who join after I21, those who DID pay should have access. They paid for something, and that is now apparently being taken away. That is not 'expecting everything for free', that is something they have already paid for in a one off payment being taken away. That is not on.
Logic is not your strong suit, I take it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texarkana View Post
There have always been 2 requirements for access to Incarnates. Having Going Rogue and subscribing.

Before Freedom, you did not have access to Incarnates if you subscribed, but did not buy Going Rogue. Conversely, if you bought Going Rogue, but did not subscribe, then you did not have access to Incarnates (or anything else).

Given that in the Freedom model you get Going Rogue access for free when you subscribe, it appears that subscribing is the only requirement, but the two requirements still stand. Therefore, owning Going Rogue, but not subscribing, means you do not have access to Incarnates (but do have access to other stuff!)

Now, do I agree with this? Not really, because of the marketing snafu that was postponing Incarnates, but that is the way it is.
More Simply ....
Pre-I-21 Incarnates = Subscription + Going Rogue
Post I-21 Incarnates = Subscription (due to Going Rogue being included)

@Texarkana
@Thexder

 

Posted

The dev's ****** up, what they said would happen didn't. It happens some times, though if enough people point it out then they might give access to the Alpha slot, which was part of GR at least until once again the devs ****** up.

Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggis View Post
Ouch.. it does say nearly, but still.



Hmm,

1: All the incarnate information is on the going rogue site, not the main site.

2: How could you access the incarnate content PRIOR to freedom without GR?

Just cos it's not on the box, it's still a purchase you had to make to access the content.
Let us try a concept for you.

Expansion.

An Expansion adds a new layer of technology to a game. Following an expansion games often have new content in future updates that require the presence of the technology that the expansion unlocked.

This is the case with Going Rogue it was an expansion not just an issue update. If you didn't buy the expansion you where not given access to all of the game technology it enabled.

Incarnates required that new in game technology to function correctly thus for you to use it you had to have features enabled by the expansion. But the expansion itself didn't contain the new Incarnate abilities. It just provided the foundation needed for it to work.

Ergo Going Rogue does not contain Incarnates or directly give them to you. But its presence does enable the new technology to work so you have to have purchased it prior to have the game mechanics present that allow Incarnates to work.

Freedom moved gave all of those game mechanics to subscribers. A new subscriber to Freedom does not need to have purchased any previous expansion to have access to the game mechanics unlocked by the expansion.

Note this is not the first time that this has happened with City of Heroes. The last time they gave every subscriber free access to a previous expansion was with City of Villains. When Cryptic sold COH to NCSoft and a new studio was formed to run the game the City of Villains expansion was given to all subscribers. They are doing the same thing here. Post Freedom a subscriber does not need to have purchased any previous expansion to have access to the expansions game mechanics.

All of this leaves Incarnates that had been gated behind mechanics introduced in Going Rogue and being a Subscriber now only gated by being a Subscriber.

But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

List of Invention Guides

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_X2 View Post
Yes, but then the game wouldn't be free now would it? My argument still stands. Free accounts suck. You have to pay to get a good product.
The game is perfectly free to play.

If you don't pay money you don't have access to all game features. Nothing wrong with that. It isn't advertised as Free to Play every bloody thing in the game.

But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

List of Invention Guides

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
The dev's ****** up, what they said would happen didn't. It happens some times, though if enough people point it out then they might give access to the Alpha slot, which was part of GR at least until once again the devs ****** up.
Why would we want that to happen?

If preems want access to incarnates THAT BADLY (and I can tell you that many of them don't - I've got at least 6 people coming back with ZERO interest in it) then they can pay. Just like they had to before. Then the game gets money to keep going.

How is this not desirable?

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LISAR View Post
Ok...lets check the box


Nope no incarnate there lets look elsewhere...
Lets take the wayback machine to July of 2010 a month before GR went live.

http://web.archive.org/web/201007170.../overview.html


Nope not there, could you please show where incarnates were included as a Going Rogue feature?
make this as clear as I can.

I quit when i18 was released and didn't come back till i19, I had to buy GR to access incarnates even though I don't give 2 ***** about preatoria, it's zones or any content there of. Nor any of the power sets released with.


I HAD TO BUY GR TO USE INCARNATES, THERE FOR I HAD TO BUY INCARNATES,NOT SUBSCRIBE TO ACCESS THEM, BUY THEM.

So simple some people just don't get it.

 

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Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
Why would we want that to happen?

If preems want access to incarnates THAT BADLY (and I can tell you that many of them don't - I've got at least 6 people coming back with ZERO interest in it) then they can pay. Just like they had to before. Then the game gets money to keep going.

How is this not desirable?

Because when you sell something to people. with an spect included Incarnate system for example, but later have to delay the release of that aspect. Don't then act like you didn't included it as part of the original purchase.

Don't sell some one a box of cornflakes, with a decoder ring in. Only to remove the decorder ring until it's fixed, and then pretend it wasn't part of the cornflakes box anyway.

Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky666 View Post
I HAD TO BUY GR TO USE INCARNATES, THERE FOR I HAD TO BUY INCARNATES,NOT SUBSCRIBE TO ACCESS THEM, BUY THEM.

So simple some people just don't get it.
Yes, indeed. Some people do not.

You had to have GR installed to ACCESS Incarnates.

Yet incarnates DID NOT RELEASE with GR. They were not PART of GR. GR was the gating system which allowed you to access it.