Premium Players get less than expected!
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-09-24 05:58 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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There is lets take it to the next step which you are refusing to follow. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
There is no functional difference. You still need the Satellites to make use of the GPS. Ergo, you HAVE to get GR to use Incarnates. That's like saying a key and a steel door are two different things when, without the key, you're not getting through that door any other way.
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Now as a special bonus the company is offering all former subscribers to the satellites but if they don't pay the subscription fee they don't have access to the GPS system.
And there you have incarnates. You must pay the monthly subscription fee for access to them. All other gates to it's access are gone but you must still pay for access.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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Originally Posted by LadyGrimrose
The Alpha slot was going to be a "sneak peak" in Going Rogue. They pushed it back based on player feedback not Marketing. On the main page they have been very clear that incarnate access is only VIP.
The choice to support the game is years. But, again. VIPs deserve to reap the benefits of their subscription and if it's not Incarnates that is locked away then it "will" be something else. The argument could be you bought CoH so you should have access to everything because all the features are linked to the main game itself. This boils down to the right of NcSoft to alter subscription and non-subscription content however they wish. It is stated as such in the Eula. |
I prebought GR based on getting the incarnate sneak peak, that it was pushed back a little before GR launched, pissed me right off at the time.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Nope you only have to be subscribed now to have access to incarnates.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Yeah the thing is if you are a VIP you need to purchase GR for incarnate content. Fine!
But why should a premium player have to purchase incarnate content again if they already purchased GR? It is because they are no longer subscribed? So you have to be subscribed and have GR purchased? Fine! Make it clear then because it clearly hasn't been made clear. GR is an expansion, and a result you should keep what you purchased. IO's wasn't part of a paid expansion but was freely given out, and can be freely taken away. But don't take away what was paid for! |
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
There is lets take it to the next step which you are refusing to follow.
Now as a special bonus the company is offering all former subscribers to the satellites but if they don't pay the subscription fee they don't have access to the GPS system. And there you have incarnates. You must pay the monthly subscription fee for access to them. All other gates to it's access are gone but you must still pay for access. |
But they advertised the special feature as part of buying the satalite, and then later said you'd keep everything you bought.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
When GR was announced the Alpha Slot was included with it. However during the beta (after people had pre-ordered) they removed the Alpha slot because it wasn't doing anything significant.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=232950
Therefore the Alpha Slot was advertised and sold as part of GR, but fell to issue 19 due to it being changed. I would contend that the slots past Alpha are nothing to do with GR though.
It is a bit rich that GR included Demon Summoning, yet no automatic access to even just that powerset, and Electric Control, yet again no access even to thos epreems who have bought it, unless they have the premium rewards.
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And Incarnates weren't a part of a paid expansion either. It was added to the game several months after GR was put on the market.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
IO's wasn't part of a paid expansion but was freely given out, and can be freely taken away.
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Only in 1 add that was not supported by the box statements or any other statements. If the box stated you got it then you would have a case. But one marketing person screwing up in copy somewhere? no.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
But they advertised the special feature as part of buying the satalite, and then later said you'd keep everything you bought.
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But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Yeah the thing is if you are a VIP you need to purchase GR for incarnate content. Fine!
But why should a premium player have to purchase incarnate content again if they already purchased GR? It is because they are no longer subscribed? So you have to be subscribed and have GR purchased? Fine! Make it clear then because it clearly hasn't been made clear. GR is an expansion, and a result you should keep what you purchased. IO's wasn't part of a paid expansion but was freely given out, and can be freely taken away. But don't take away what was paid for! |
VIPs now get GR for free whether they bought it or not... I know because on that sale of $1.99 City of Heroes that I used to start a 3rd account, it eventually unlocked access to Praetoria. But as already mentioned, the Incarnate content is the way they get people to subscribe.
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Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
Only in 1 add that was not supported by the box statements or any other statements. If the box stated you got it then you would have a case. But one marketing person screwing up in copy somewhere? no.
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Oh you mean the one add that anyone unable to purchase a physical box would of had to base their purchase on? The one add that funny enough popped up right before pre-purchase through NCsoft was enabled? That one add that was all that anyone without a NA account, and NA shops would be able to base the purchase on?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
I find myself falling into agreements on both sides of the issue here.
I have gone out of my way in the past to document the exact timeline of Going Rogue's development process and marketing publications to show that the Incarnate System was never a part of the retail Going Rogue release. I have chewed out players for various complaints over the lack of Incarnate and/or Alpha slot on Going Rogue's retail release. No I'm not going to link to those posts, mostly because I really don't care anymore.
While the Incarnate system was not a part of the retail release, I find it very hard to argue against the Idea that the Incarnate System was a follow-up Issue release to the Going Rogue expansion. I find myself agreeing with the posters who say that the Incarnate System should be counted as part of the Going Rogue purchase price.
From all outside perspectives the Incarnate System has been advertised since it's public inception as part of the Going Rogue system that was gated behind a purchase of Going Rogue. You had to Buy Going Rogue to get Incarnate Access. That Incarnates were never part of the retail release is immaterial. You still needed to purchase Going Rogue for access, making Incarnates part of the Issue System going forward for the Going Rogue expansion.
Ergo, as a player, I find the position that has been taken on Incarnate Access to be... well... wrong.
As I have made clear in previous posts I do not think Positron, Ghost Falcon, Second Measure, or any of the other Paragon Studios Developers are actually the ones making these calls. It is my opinion that Paragon Studios OWNERS... you know... NCSoft-Korea... is the one making the marketing and promotional calls.
From all empirical evidence Paragon Studio's owners don't care one lick about what Paragon Studios did, or said, as Paragon Studios. The Incarnate System was never a part of the retail Going Rogue expansion, and as far as the ones who are calling the shots now are concerned, that's the end of the discussion.
As a player I thoroughly disagree with that positioning. My own opinion is that the Incarnate System should have been gated behind a similar Paragon Rewards gate as the Mastermind / Controller Access, Permanent IO access, and perma Auction-house access. It would have been a nice bone to throw veteran players as well as those who can afford to dump a few hundred quid on what I've already called "beyond ludicrous prices"
What i'd do for premiums that have bought Going Rogue:
-allow for alpha slot.
-Don't allow access into iTrials.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
What i'd do for premiums that have bought Going Rogue:
-allow for alpha slot. -Don't allow access into iTrials. |
That's pretty much what I'd say as well.
Pretty sure companies are meant to honour their advertising, even if said advert was a mistake.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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The same logic makes buying any CoX box justification to have absolutely nothing taken away by becoming a Premium. After all, I could not play a controller without one of the CoX boxes, therefore, I "bought" controllers. I could not use IOs without buying one of the CoX boxes, therefore I "bought" IOs. And so on.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
So, if GR was the gating system, and you had to have it installed...
That means, if you didn't have GR, you couldn't get Incarnates. Meaning you HAD to have GR to get Incarnates. Meaning, ergo, that people who bought GR were effectively buying entry to the Incarnate system. Because there was NO other way to get it. |
GR was NOT the Incarnate System expansion, it was the new low-level zones with some new powersets expansion. Nowhere on the box does it mention incarnates. The reason someone may have bought it is irrelevant if they have chosen to stop paying a subscription, because incarnate content required GR AND a subscription and the purchaser knew that at the time.
Whether I bought CoH, CoV, or GR, I bought an overall package containing a game system ON THE UNDERSTANDING that I had to pay a subscription fee to play ANY of the game. That means if I choose to stop paying a fee, I have no "rights" to access anything I payed for previously even if the game goes F2P.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Gemini
The same logic makes buying any CoX box justification to have absolutely nothing taken away by becoming a Premium. After all, I could not play a controller without one of the CoX boxes, therefore, I "bought" controllers. I could not use IOs without buying one of the CoX boxes, therefore I "bought" IOs. And so on.
GR was NOT the Incarnate System expansion, it was the new low-level zones with some new powersets expansion. Nowhere on the box does it mention incarnates. The reason someone may have bought it is irrelevant if they have chosen to stop paying a subscription, because incarnate content required GR AND a subscription and the purchaser knew that at the time. Whether I bought CoH, CoV, or GR, I bought an overall package containing a game system ON THE UNDERSTANDING that I had to pay a subscription fee to play ANY of the game. That means if I choose to stop paying a fee, I have no "rights" to access anything I payed for previously even if the game goes F2P. |
Controllers and Masterminds yeah, they should probably be auto-unlocked if you ever bought a box. IO system not so much, it was never advertised as part of a box/edition release.
AE on the other hand, that probably should be auto-unlocked if the player bought the AE edition release.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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If we're going to look at compromises that NCSoft might find acceptable since I really don't see NCSoft stepping back and putting Incarnate Access behind a Paragon Rewards barrier:|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
What i'd do for premiums that have bought Going Rogue:
-allow for alpha slot. -Don't allow access into iTrials. |
Premiums who bought Going Rogue Retail: note: retail, not Paragon Market version
- -allow for slots up to Tyrant trial
- -allow for access to I-trials up to Tryant trial
This also locks future Incarnate content, such as the Battalion, behind the paywall, at a point when Incarnate Content would likely be separated from Going Rogue content.
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No one had to buy the AE edition to get access to the AE. It was free for everyone that had an active subscription.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
AE on the other hand, that probably should be auto-unlocked if the player bought the AE edition release.
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The AE edition was merely advertising for the new feature and it came with a free booster pack (Cyborg or Magic).
I could see maybe allowing access to the Alpha slot. But the rest of this incarnate stuff didn't show up until maybe January of this year, and even the Alpha slot wasn't part of GR on release. I don't really see how your friend is being "screwed" when a game he stopped funding let him back in for free, and I can PROMISE you any game box or advertisement stated a monthly fee was a condition of playing what he or she was purchasing.
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I congratulate you on your perspicacity, sir!
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Originally Posted by FalconX_NA
This is clearly just a way to get more money.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Pretty sure companies are meant to honour their advertising, even if said advert was a mistake.
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Their advertising and web site said that purchasing Going Rogue provided access to a game you had to pay a fee to play. It made exactly zero promises about what you would get if you bought the expansion and stopped paying for it.
I was thinking about going down to Premium.. now I think Ill just keep my sub..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Well the back of the CoV box still says "base raids"....
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
That's pretty much what I'd say as well.
Pretty sure companies are meant to honour their advertising, even if said advert was a mistake. |
FWIW, my 2 INF is that the Incarnate System, at least the currently available pools, should have been the full Tier 8 Premium bonus. As it currently stands, the full Tier 8 Premium bonus is a joke for the amount of time and/or money required to get there. Large inspirations and storage slots? Meh.
To clarify, I would have set the bonus this way:
At full Tier 8, Premium Players unlock:
Lifetime Limited Access to the Incarnate System:
- Access to Alpha, Judgement, Interface, Lore and Destiny slots;
- Access to BAF, Lambda, and Keyes trials ONLY.
Any access to future incarnate trials (starting with Underground, as it's part of I21/Freedom), future incarnate powersets, even as a full Tier 8, would have been VIP-exclusive.
This would give tenured Premiums (or those who spent enough) access to some of the end game while leaving the newer stuff for the subscribers and possibly convince people to resubscribe if they want to expand their "free" incarnate any further.
Partial Character List:
LENINA 198-DELTA - 50+3 DP/Kin Corruptor (Main) / Captiosus - 50+3 Energy/Energy Blaster
Highlands.Hellraiser - 50+1 DS/Fire Tanker / SpazRat - 50 Claw/SR Stalker
Col. Gregor Aktaybr - 45 Robots/Time MM
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This is the only complaint I agree with. I have a retail box for the AE addition.|
Originally Posted by Pyrox Saberdon
What if someone went out and got the City of Heroes: Architect Edition box?
This is not as gray of an area as Incarnates. The person bought the box advertising itself as giving you AE. Once the free month runs out that person loses AE and has to buy it AGAIN from the in game store. That is a screw job. |
http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/n...w_availabl.php
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Originally Posted by City of Heroes official website
City of Heroes® Architect Edition includes City of Heroes®, City of Villains®, including the innovative Mission Architect, and your choice between two exclusive in-game item packs! Don't forget, the Cyborg Pack and the Magic Pack can also be purchased separately for only $9.99.
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http://www.amazon.com/City-Heroes-Ar.../dp/B001TEPX8A
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Product Features
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On the box is has the following to say:
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The first MMORPG with User Created Content! Design your own missions and story arcs to share with the entire City of Heroes community. Determine details ranging from environments, mission objectives, and enemies, to written fiction and character dialogue. Now every player can be an Architect! See inside flap for details. |
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BONUS IN-GAME CONTENT Select between two exclusive Super Booster Packs: Cyborg or Magic ($9.99 value)! |
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
I have to agree. My high level characters all have IO's and in order to get an Invention Licence it would cost 105$ per character to get access to the Invention System. Or 2$ per month per character until i've spent 400 dollars to have access to IO's. I can't even respec to get rid of them and put in SO's because i would lose all the IO's that don't fit in my enhancement slots. So, I probably wont be coming back. I wish you COH/COV dev's all the luck in the world, but for now, I think outta here. Bye
Yeah the thing is if you are a VIP you need to purchase GR for incarnate content. Fine!
But why should a premium player have to purchase incarnate content again if they already purchased GR? It is because they are no longer subscribed?
So you have to be subscribed and have GR purchased? Fine! Make it clear then because it clearly hasn't been made clear.
GR is an expansion, and a result you should keep what you purchased. IO's wasn't part of a paid expansion but was freely given out, and can be freely taken away.
But don't take away what was paid for!